Glens Falls (NY) Online Book Discussion Group discussion
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ABOUT BOOKS AND READING
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What are U reading these days? (PART EIGHT (2012) (ONGOING THREAD for 2012)
Jackie wrote: "The Odyssey is to The Iliad as The Hobbit is to LOTR, IMO. Odyssey and Hobbit are fast paced with something new and exciting happening in every chapter, Iliad and LOTR are long books, good in their own rights but will never be as exciting as Odyssey or Hobbit. It takes a long time to get the pay-off. ..."Jackie, that's a good analogy.
I read a good part of LOTR and was enjoying it until the number of characters increased to such a large amount that I was overwhelmed. Not only that, but it seemed to simply be one episode of danger after another, much like the Harry Potter books, IMO. It just kept stretching out with no culmination in sight. I got bored.
Joy wrote: The problem is UNDERSTANDING what they're talking about! You're on to something there, Joy. My experience with many fantasy authors is they assume their audience is steeped in fantasy, which they usually are.
And: thus the reader is expected to identify them from their contexts.
One time I had to ask Jim who Carmen was in a Zelazny book (one of the Amber's). She's the Carmen from an opera.
Joy wrote: but it seemed to simply be one episode of danger after anotherThat's pretty much what fantasy is.
The Hobbit is the same, expect done at a quicker pace so it's not as drawn out as LOTR.
Joy wrote: I hope you use book tape.No, just some wood or paper glue. It works.
Jackie wrote: "...One time I had to ask Jim who Carmen was in a Zelazny book (one of the Amber's). She's the Carmen from an opera. "I was at least incomplete & possibly wrong about that, Jackie. Carmen from the opera was wild & treacherous, so I thought she fit Dara pretty well, but Chris Kovacs looked into it some more & has decided that she could also be Lolita, the old pedophile's pet name for Carmen, who left him at the end. When you take into account that Dara was Corwin's great-grand niece, that makes a lot of sense, too. It's in Chris' essay on Amber allusions in the New York Review of SF here:
http://www.nyrsf.com/2012/07/suspende...
It's the last section, entitled "A Too-Clever Allusion?". I believe it was a mixture of the 2 Carmens. That would be typical of Zelazny.
Just to be clear, I don't read any of Zelazny's books & get all the references immediately. I've read some of them for decades & missed them until someone I'm discussing them with brings them to my attention either by telling me or by asking a question. I'm sure no one gets them all. Even Chris, who edited the Complete Works of Zelazny & noted all the references he could find, missed some & even got a few wrong. Others are so ambiguous, they're up for debate, like Carmen.I've read A Night in the Lonesome October a dozen times & studied it several yeas running. I have notes that run to dozens of pages & I'll bet they're not complete. Not only was Zelazny a prodigious reader, but he had a degree in English, just like Myers. When folks like that start making allusions, folks like us have a tough time keeping up much less ferreting them all out!
;-)
Jackie wrote: "Joy wrote: I hope you use book tape.No, just some wood or paper glue. It works."
It may work but it may not last as long.
Book Tape is made specifically to last and not dry out.
Jackie, that's a great comparison between the Hobbit & the Odyssey. I never thought of it that way, but you're right. That's one of the best things about edited translations, they skip a lot of the dross. Did you know the Iliad & the Odyssey are just 2 middle books of a suspected 5? I found out about that by my high brow reading of Cracked.com. Seriously, look at these jewels that have been lost:
http://www.cracked.com/article/18368_...
I'm not much of a book fixer. I've tried more than a few times over the years without much success. I generally tape the bindings with good, clear packing tape & call it a day or find a new copy. I should pay a pro to fix Scott's Grandfather's Tales for me, though. Unfortunately, I have too many other places to spend a few hundred dollars.
Here's a book restorer:
http://www.book-restoration.com/index...
Jim wrote: "... Not only was Zelazny a prodigious reader, but he had a degree in English, just like Myers. When folks like that start making allusions, folks like us have a tough time keeping up much less ferreting them all out! ;-) "AMEN TO THAT!
Don't those authors realize that they are way above the heads of most readers?
Could it be their subtle way of showing off their knowledge? Sometimes I wonder about that.
After Jim mentioned cracked.com, I went there out of curiousity. I found this:5 Scientific Reasons You're Better Off Being Unattractive
http://www.cracked.com/article_19964_...
LOL !
Jim, the Lolita connection makes sense. It's more likely a combinations of both, as you said. Oh for sure I'll never get half of Zelazny's allusions. Night in the Lonesome October was awesome, it was so much fun to read and I'm still puzzled over many of the allusions.
Wow, that's some impressive list of lost books. Even if the other's were around I doubt I'd read them, I never bothered with The Aeneid which is about Aeneas who escapes from Troy to go on to Rome, I think.
So there are still book restorers. That would be good for rare books, I wouldn't spend the money on modern books I can buy again cheaper. My glue and some other adhesive I can't remember the name of, is good enough for my books. It'll give me the time I need for future readings. I can't tell you how many books I have that are dried out just from being old, not my work but made that way. I can live with it.
Cracked is awesome, I visit every once in a while.
All writing is 'showing off', isn't it? A story full of allusions could be if the allusions were obscure, but most are known to a great many people. How often does someone allude to some part of Shakespeare's plays even in prime time comedy? Quite often. So why not to other classics?It's fun to try to figure them all out & a way for an author to write very few words yet speak volumes. It also leads to a good deal of discussion, not to mention further reading & recommendations.
There are also levels of allusions. Mention Ozymandias or quote a bit of it, "...Look on my works, ye Mighty..." & everyone thinks of Shelley's poem, which Zelazny does in one place. He goes on to say something about a 'stupendous leg' which makes perfect sense in reference to Ramses' tomb & the story goes on. That's fine & interesting, BUT there's a lot more there if you're familiar with the history of the poem & Smith's contribution 'On A Stupendous Leg Of Granite' & who Smith was - Shelley's stockbroker, friend & rival in submitting the poem to a magazine or newspaper. Suddenly there is a lot of subtext to a few simple words.
It can also lend ambiguity to a story & that can make it very interesting. This Immortal is a fairly simple adventure story if you just read the words. If you get some of the allusions, it's much more robust, & can lead to the idea that perhaps the main character isn't really a mutant, but Pan. So you re-read the book with that in mind & sure enough, there's an entirely different dimension added - almost a whole new book!
The ambiguity in Corwin's final entry at the end of The Courts of Chaos is what Jackie & I were talking about.
Carmen, voulez-vous venir avec moi? No? Then goodbye to you too, Princess of Chaos. It might have been fun.
There is no one named Carmen in the series, so who is Corwin talking about. We think Dara since his other love, his sister, is dead. But which Carmen or is it a combination of both does Corwin mean? The wild, heartless woman that ruined the poor, young soldier or the young girl taken advantage of? I can make a case for both or either one & it's something I generally think about long after I put down the book.
Don't you think an author leaving a person with such thoughts is good? I love it, usually. I guess I'm ambiguous about ambiguity.
;-)
Jim wrote: "All writing is 'showing off', isn't it? A story full of allusions could be if the allusions were obscure, but most are known to a great many people. How often does someone allude to some part of ..."Jim, I can understand your point of view about obscure allusions. You see them as an enjoyable challenge. I guess I would too if I were challenged at my level. I enjoy a moderately easy quiz but I get frustrated and annoyed when the quiz is too hard for me. That's the way it works.
I can understand the advantages of allusions. As you said, "It's ... a way for an author to write very few words yet speak volumes. It also leads to a good deal of discussion, not to mention further reading & recommendations." This is true.
As for a book giving you something interesting to think about after you finish reading it, that's a good book. Nothing wrong with that.
I suppose the "showing off" part comes when the author is deliberately obscure with no OTHER reason than to exhibit his knowledge, just as when a person uses a big word where a small one would do.
As for your statement that "all writing is showing off", that's debatable. Some people write because they enjoy it or have a story to tell. They have no intention of showing off. I guess the answer is in the author's intention.
I'm not against allusions. They can be wonderfully poetic and meaningful, as well as clever. However, allusions for allusion's sake seem boastful to me.
Jackie, I rec'd a notification from GR, sent at 8:12 PM tonight, 8/6/12. It says:"Jackie posted a new comment on Glens Falls (NY) Online Book Discussion Group topic: "What are U reading these days? (PART EIGHT (2012) (ONGOING THREAD for 2012)"
But I don't see a post from you here, posted at 8:12 PM. Your last post here was over 7 hours ago in Message #713 above. I had already seen it.
Do you think that it was just a case of a late notification or am I missing something?
Joy, obscure allusions are kind of like inside jokes. They can be rude if overdone, but they can also add a bit of zest to a conversation. It's a balance & since he had an encyclopedic store of classical literature, Zelazny tended to use it a bit more than some like.He once said that before he got published, he couldn't figure out why his stories were getting rejected so he went back & read all his old stories. He decided he was explaining too much, so he pared his prose down & one major way was by using allusions. The result was A Rose for Ecclesiastes. With a title like that, an allusion to a biblical book, and a setting on Mars, you just know that you have to be familiar with the biblical book. That story won Zelazny a prestigious award & put him firmly in the public's eye.
He's not the first to use a piece of that book for a title, either. The Sun Also Rises by Ernest Hemingway is also titled from & pulls allusions from that book. Since Ecclesiastes is part of both the Christian Bible & the Talmud, it's fairly well known by a large part of the world. That makes it fair game, IMO.
Such writing isn't for everyone, of course. It's a puzzle at times, but I like it. I've read a fair few classics, so often get a sense when I run across them, even if I can't immediately recall them completely. I usually have an idea of where to go looking & now I can even google them. It's led me to some great reading, too.
Joy, I received two notifications of your posts late in the afternoon and when I got there, it was only one I saw hours earlier, yet it was for different times, the original one I got that had me come here and the second had no new post when I went to look. I guess it's just a glitch because I wasn't here last night, I was outside from 8 to 9 last night. And I'm not getting half my notifications either. I missed all of July for another group discussion I've been following for years.
Jim wrote: "Joy, obscure allusions are kind of like inside jokes. They can be rude if overdone, but they can also add a bit of zest to a conversation. It's a balance & since he had an encyclopedic store of c..."Jim, I can understand your enjoyment of allusions. They enrich your reading. I wish I were able to appreciate the more obscure references. Unfortunately, I was never a real reader as I grew up. I always wanted to be one but never had the time or energy. Now that I'm retired, I'm trying to catch up, but of course, it's too late.
I realize that many book titles make allusions to literature. That's why I started the topic here called: "Title Origins and/or Meanings". It's at:
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/3...
It's a start in my search for the key to allusions. :)
Jackie wrote: "Joy, I received two notifications of your posts late in the afternoon and when I got there, it was only one I saw hours earlier, yet it was for different times, the original one I got that had me ..."Sounds like the notification system at GR isn't always dependable. To make sure we haven't missed posts, we just have to keep checking the group for unread posts. That isn't entirely fool-proof either. For example, when the posts go onto a new page, sometimes I don't discover the page right away. Also, while we're composing at a particular topic, GR may assume we've already read everything there, when we haven't.
Failing to understand an allusion can be terrible & really ruin the story. A case in point was a recent horror book that I reviewed:http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...
It was just a few short stories & was pretty good, but one story didn't work because I couldn't figure out who a character was.
Hell-O-Ween is only getting 3 stars because I don't get it. The longest story of the bunch, it was very good in a lot of ways, but over all I just didn't get it. The idea of trick or treating in Hell is cool, but it didn't make much sense. I got who all the gift givers were except the last one. Maybe if I'd picked up the last reference, it would have had a better impact, but I didn't & the ending was either so obvious as to be weak or else I missed the point.
Greg, the author, just told me last night that the last reference was Pym from Edgar Allan Poe's, "The Narrative of Arthur Gordon Pym". It was Poe's only novel length work and akin to Moby Dick, hence the Mariner's reference.
Poe is fair game for allusions since he is so well known. This is one of the few cases where I couldn't dredge the name up, though. I seem to recall searching for it, too. Usually something like that would pop right up & I'd know. Whoops.
Jim wrote: "Failing to understand an allusion can be terrible & really ruin the story. A case in point was a recent horror book that I reviewed:http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/... "
Jim, you write great reviews. I love your comments, especially because they are written in a colloquial style.
Gad, I wonder how many references I've missed because I was ignorant of the literature being alluded too! No wonder I have trouble understanding certain poetry!
Thank you, Joy! I've always hated people using $5 words where a $0.05 one would do. ;-)
Jim, I liked this part of the review:The Breath of An Instant when I first read it, I gave it 3 stars. The more I think about it, the more horrible it is, so make it 4.
Now that's a story you make me want to read, lol
I forgot to put in a link to Midnight Theatre: Tales of Terror by Greg Chapman. It's free on Smashwords in all kinds of formats, here:http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/...
I believe I read it right on the PC. It's only 39 pages.
Thanks, I just read The Breadth of An Instant. That end is disturbing, to be repeated over and over.
Jackie, as I promised, I'm posting a link to my review of Pro Luce Habere (To Have Before the Light) Volume 2, which I finished this afternoon. It's at http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/... .Now, I've started reading How to Read a Novel: A User's Guide, by John Sutherland. I picked up a remaindered copy awhile back at one of our local dollar stores. Of course, I've been reading novels since I was in grade school. But I'm open to picking up any insights that would enhance my experience and perceptions!
Werner wrote: "Now, I've started reading How to Read a Novel: A User's Guide, by John Sutherland. ..."Werner, that's the kind of book I'd like to hear as an audio-book. Our public library has the hard copy. Sounds very enlightening. Can you give us an example of Sutherland's advice?
Joy, I'm just starting the Sutherland book, and so far I haven't gotten to the more "practical" parts. (The first chapter basically makes the point that readers today are much more inundated with a steady torrent of new fiction than readers in the past were, and the second chapter suggests that there are --within some limits-- different ways to understand and evaluate a novel, that depend on the individual characteristics of the reader.) But when I get to the parts with practical advice, I'll be sure to post an example!
Thank you very much, Werner. The book (_ How to Read a Novel: A User's Guide_) sounds very interesting. I am very interested in the "practical advice". In fact I'm very curious. :)
I am reading the hunger games part 1 and miracle wimp the most but I'm still reading the action bible.
Mike wrote: "I am reading the hunger games part 1 and miracle wimp the most but I'm still reading the action bible."I've met so many people who are reading The Hunger Games. I'm not drawn to dystopian plots.
Miracle Wimp sounds like a book which will bring you a lot of smiles.
Here's the link to Amazon's copy of The Action Bible: God's Redemptive Story:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0781444993/r...
I looked inside. I remember buying books like that for our sons.
Joy, I hadn't forgotten my promise to post some of Sutherland's practical advice on How to Read a Novel; the problem was, I waited in vain for him to give any. The total practical advice I got out of the book boils down to: pay attention to epigraphs (if any) and consider the historical context implied by the copyright date. That doesn't seem to be advice worth the dollar I paid for the book, much less the $21.95 list price! Anyway, I've finished the book, and my review is here: http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/... .My Action Heroine Fans group might do a common read of The Hunger Games in November. I'll be interested in your reaction to it, Mike!
Good review, Werner. It's a shame with your limited reading time that you spent it on this, though. You sure stretch your dollar.;-)
Werner wrote: "Joy, I hadn't forgotten my promise to post some of Sutherland's practical advice on How to Read a Novel; the problem was, I waited in vain for him to give any. The total practical advice I got out..."Werner, I think that's the most entertaining book review I have EVER read! (http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...) You have a great sense of humor. LOL Well done!
The advice to "consider the historical context implied by the copyright date" is more of a reminder than advice. Sometimes I do forget to consider the era in which the book was written. As far as paying attention to epigraphs, IMO sometimes I can do without the epigraphs because some of them are so obscure.
IMO, choosing books to read requires learning from past experience. Only by experience can we know which authors please us and which genres appeal to us.
Sure it helps to know how to evaluate a book but in the end it all comes down to what we like.
Below is a comment from a Goodreads member which makes a lot of sense to me.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"We're all free to like what we like. Nobody can argue with that. But when I
was teaching Art History, I used to tell my students that we should try to
separate our personal taste from our evaluation of a work of art. If I
didn't like T-bone, would that make it a bad source of protein? I don't much
like The Embarkation for Cythera, not my taste at all, does that make it bad
art? Paradise Lost leaves me cold, should we kick Milton out of the
pantheon?"
-Ruth Bavetta at Goodreads group, Constant Reader
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I think Ruth expressed the idea very well.
Werner, did the author list any specific criteria for judging literature? I suppose we all judge from our own point of view. But what makes "good literature" and what makes "bad literature"? (I can certainly guess, but I'd like to see a list.) :-)
I finished Stand on Zanzibar, it was good but from all the hype I expected more.Now I'm on Ender's Game, an easy read that I'm thoroughly enjoying.
GR description:"Ender's Game is the winner of the 1985 Nebula Award for Best Novel and the 1986 Hugo Award for Best Novel."
Sounds like a good choice, Jackie.
Is this your first time reading "Ender's Game", Jackie? Excellent book. If you like it, I'd suggest reading "Ender's Shadow" soon after. It's the story from Bean's POV. Those are the only 2 books I really liked out of the whole series. They were short & to the point. The rest are super long & the couple I've read bored me.
Thanks for the kind words, Jim and Joy. Yeah, the thought did cross my mind, at times during the read, that I could be reading something more rewarding! But thankfully it was short, and the author did keep throwing me entertaining or educational tidbits. (If I'd left it unfinished, I couldn't have written a review that furnished Joy some good entertainment --and that'll maybe serve as a warning beacon for some other poor reader in danger of shipwreck on that shore. :-) )No, Joy, he didn't list any criteria for judging literature, either. That would have violated his apparent policy of not pinning himself down to giving any concrete advice. :-)
Werner wrote: "Thanks for the kind words, Jim and Joy. ... No, Joy, he didn't list any criteria for judging literature, either. That would have violated his apparent policy of not pinning himself down to giving any concrete advice. :-)"Werner, sounds like he played it safe!
Just today I saved the following quote while listening to an audiobook:
==================================================
All judgments are relative to some standard.
FROM: The Narnian: The Life and Imagination of C. S. Lewis by Alan Jacobs
==================================================
Trouble is, everyone has different standards. There's the rub! We all make different judgments if we stick to our standards.
Would you say that the book gave you some food for thought, Werner, even if it didn't offer some specific standards?
Jim, yes, it's my first time for Ender. I got most of this series, and 2 of Ender's Shadow series, last year at a library book sale. I've read Card's Alvin Maker series too and that was good, but as is common in most series, the later books were too long and drawn out and lost their excitement factor. Fantastic story, though.
We read the first few Alvin Maker books & then quit. I think my favorite by Card is a standalone, Treason. Well, maybe "Ender's Game" is - it's close.
The first two of Alvin were fantastic, maybe the third one, but then it went downhill. I haven't read Treason. If I see it, I'll pick it up at the next sale I go to.
Joy, good question about "food for thought" in the Sutherland book! To be honest, no; I can't say that he really shared anything that made me question any of my assumptions or look at anything in a new way. I agreed already with most of the substantive opinions he actually states. However, I did learn a new word: "intertextuality," describing the interrelationships between novels. :-)Not being into military science fiction, I've never read Ender's Game. But I also loved Card's Alvin Maker series; I gave the first four books five stars, and the last two four stars. As that shows, like Jim and Jackie, I do recognize that the quality declines in the last part of the series --though my estimation of the later ones is still higher than theirs. (But I'm a sucker for "alternate history!)"
It's been so long that I had to look up my star ratings, I gave 5 stars to #1 and #2, and 3 stars for the next 4 books. It was still a good story but I didn't care for the pacing.I don't like military scifi but Ender isn't really what I would call military. At least not yet. I'm about halfway through.
Jim, what do you think, military or not? And how much of the Ender series have you read? I'm trying to decide on what order to read them in. The events of the Shadow series are set before Book 2 of the Ender series. I have the first 4 of Ender and the first two of Shadow.
Werner wrote: "Joy, good question about "food for thought" in the Sutherland book! To be honest, no; I can't say that he really shared anything that made me question any of my assumptions or look at anything in anything in a new way. ... However, I did learn a new word: "intertextuality," describing the interrelationships between novels. :-)"Intertextuality! What next! LOL
Noun: "the interrelationship between texts, especially works of literature; the way that similar or related texts influence, reflect, or differ from each other: the intertextuality between two novels with the same setting."
FROM: http://dictionary.reference.com/brows...
From Wiki:
==============================================
As critic William Irwin says, the term “has come to have almost as many meanings as users, from those faithful to Kristeva’s original vision to those who simply use it as a stylish way of talking about allusion and influence.”
FROM: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intertex...
===============================================
My eyes glaze over when I try to read more about this word at the above Wiki link!
What's wrong with the simple word "compare"? :)
PS-See examples at the Wiki page above, where it says: "Some examples of intertextuality in literature include".
One example is: "A Thousand Acres (1991) by Jane Smiley: A retelling of Shakespeare's King Lear, set in rural Iowa."
I gave "Treason", "Ender's Game", "Ender's Shadow", & "Seventh Son" 4 stars. "Speaker for the Dead", the 2d Ender got 3 stars & "Xenocide" only got 2, so I quit. The 2d of the Shadow series only got 2 stars & I quit. The 2d Alvin got 3 stars, but the 3d got 4 stars. I don't show it on GR, but I think I read or started the 4th & quit or didn't like it.My overall impression of Card is that he starts out with a really neat idea & writes a very tight novel that's great, then gets wordy & boring as the series progresses which ruins the world for me.
The later novels in the Alvin Maker series definitely do have more slow passages than the early ones, and less dramatic intensity in most places. (He also got more slipshod with the details of his world-building --and since that's a crucial element when an author's writing alternate history, that's not a good place to start getting details tangled up; it takes you out of the story!) I don't know if that's characteristic of all of his series, since that's the only one I read.
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Jackie, I hope you use book tape. I used to buy it at Waites (sp)? in Glens Falls. Don't know where I'd buy it today.