The Idiot Part 3 Chapters 1 thru 10 (January 26 to 31)

[MountainAshleah]

ONLY if you comment on something beyond these chapters, please warn others with ***spoilers included**** or use the formatting tips in Goodreads, (some html is ok)

[MountainAshleah]

Here are some sentences that caught my attention: "Inventors and geniuses, at the beginning of their careers (and very often at the end as well), have almost always been regarded in society as no more than fools . . . "

[MountainAshleah]

" . . . because there are all these new ideas, this whole cursed women question . . . What are they waiting for? Why don't they get married? Only so as to vex their mother--there's no other reason! None! None!"

[MountainAshleah]

"But at the same time I noticed this: the most inveterate and unrepentant murderer still knows that he is a criminal, that is, in all conscience he considers that he has done wrong, though without any repentance." (This discussion is interesting in light of .)

[MountainAshleah]

"Nature has so greatly limited my activity by her three-week sentence that suicide may be the only thing I still have time to begin and end of my own will." (Ippolit)

[MountainAshleah]

"This is absurd, Aglaya Ivanovna." Myshkin, at Aglaya's suggestion to go abroad with him, to change her socially-constrained life. In the margins I wrote:

WHY?
"Because it's impossible?"
"Because it can't be real?"
"Because 'nice girls' can't change their station without suffering irreparable harm?"

[dely]

MountainShelby wrote: ""Nature has so greatly limited my activity by her three-week sentence that suicide may be the only thing I still have time to begin and end of my own will." (Ippolit)"

This remembers me Demons!
Have no time now to deepen but I will do it as soon as possible.

[MountainAshleah]

The suicide scene in Demons . . . and the scenes leading up to it . . . are some of the most darkly memorable passages I have ever read.

[dely]

MountainShelby wrote: "The suicide scene in Demons . . . and the scenes leading up to it . . . are some of the most darkly memorable passages I have ever read."

They are wonderful, so deep!
I love to find in Dostoyevsky's book the same topics, it helps to understand them better and they are topics I like and that never bore me.

It is true, suicide is the only thing we can do by our own, it is a free will, the only we have: we can't decide when to born but we can decide when die though it is not so easy (we can see it in Demons).
Perhaps it is so only for atheists because I think that a believer would never suicide, it would go against the will of God and for a believer only God can decide when you must die. A believer would also never suicide because he could be afraid of hell.
It is really a deep and difficult topic to talk about because it involves too much of a person: his emotionality, his thoughts, religious/spiritual beliefs. It 'a very subjective topic and Dostoyevsky is really very able to talk about it.

[Amalie]

Unfortunately, I haven't read Demons yet!

dely wrote: "Perhaps Hippolite thinks that his life is more worth than the one of Myshkin. He can't understand why such an "idiot" like Myshkin can live and he himself must die. ..."

Dely,I want to get the chance to answer this and I just found it. In this part I think we have a clear answer for this and I think it's more deeper than that. In Hippolite's epigraph he says looks around him at people who are healthy, and wonders why they don't live life to it's fullest. Then he look at himself and it's the very thing he doesn't have so who should he blame? God, obviously! That's who he is angry of. I think he feels like God has cheated him from not giving a complete life.

Your idea in the previous thread it really interesting and I never thought of it till you point out, but I don't think he is wishing evil. I think the reason he hates Myshkin is they are both "cheated" by God according to his belief but instead of protesting like he does, Myshkin may seem as a passive man/ an idiot who just gives in. Myshkin sees God as delighting in his creations and Myshkin always sees in many things and people but in contrast, like in the dream, Hippolite sees horror, like the monster in his dream. So I think that's another big reason why he hates Myshkin. It's something like in our expression, let's say " You idiot! We are both ill and dying and how the HELL do you see beauty and love of God?" I think it's more anger of not getting what others have.

I'm glad the few remaining readers are here! I'm really enjoying this book and it's going to end up in my Favourites shelf for sure :)

[[deleted user]]

dely wrote: "It is really a deep and difficult topic to talk about because it involves too much of a person: his emotionality, his thoughts, religious/spiritual beliefs. It 'a very subjective topic and Dostoyevsky is really very able to talk about it. ..."

Yes it is! Suicide is a recurring theme in Dostoevsky's novel, I think. Perhaps his own depression made him to write about it to find some hidden answers or something.

I don't know if I should say this but there's this "belief" that a person has attained the status of a God when, he can take a life, something that God gave Hippolite, and because he can take it, he's like God? Does that make sense? One has such powerful control over oneself that suicide is possible. Suicide signifies the epitome of one's disbelief in God like Hippolite who is certainly not believing in God.


MountainShelby wrote: ""Nature has so greatly limited my activity by her three-week sentence that suicide may be the only thing I still have time to begin and end of my own will." (Ippolit)"

He obviously whats more control and fears loosing control. It's strange really that he has an intense desire to live yet attempts to commit suicide. I think it's a search for control and really he is missing it.

[[deleted user]]

Amalie wrote: "Unfortunately, I haven't read Demons yet!

dely wrote: "Perhaps Hippolite thinks that his life is more worth than the one of Myshkin. He can't understand why such an "idiot" like Myshkin can live ..."

Good observations, Amalie! And it's very interesting how you've brought the word "idiot". Yes, many would say such a thing for a over-optimistic person to a person in this world. To have such "faith" in something that is clearly not so visible.

Didn't anyone noticed how both Myshkin and Hippolite are alike because they are both sort of rejected and suffering and they both respond negatively to Holbein's painting. Both are "oddities"

[Amalie]

dely wrote: "Perhaps it is so only for atheists because I think that a believer would never suicide, it would go against the will of God and for a believer only God can decide when you must die. A believer would also never suicide because he could be afraid of hell..."

Religion may help, but be not to all the time, obviously, when we think about the suicide rate in the world. Atheists or believers, if a person is suffering from major depression, and not treated, I think suicide will be a likely outcome. Perhaps, even Hippolite too, suffers from depression, people with long-term illnesses specially those who are dying, usually does. But as for his attempt, I really think he meant it. It wasn't as act.

I personally don't think anyone one will try to kill ones self to show off! Those are crazy assumptions. I think anyone who's trying to commit suicide should be given attention, they need help and understanding (which is exactly what these self-destructive characters get from Myshkin), but that doesn't mean that they are SEEKING attention. Doctors say about 80% of those who try to commit suicide suffers from depression. Sad, really.


Shanez wrote: "dely wrote: "It is really a deep and difficult topic to talk about because it involves too much of a person: his emotionality, his thoughts, religious/spiritual beliefs. It 'a very subjective topic..."

That an interesting point Shanez but I was looking at it the other way. I think he very much believe in the existence of God. I'm think may be he is making an "statement" kind of a protest by trying to suicide, to show God he still have power over him... Does that make sense?

I kind a get the feeling we all talk about the same thing but in different way may be because of the nature of the topic ;)

As for your idea about Myshkin and Hippolite are alike; yes but at the same time, there beliefs make them contrasts. What well-written characters!

[dely]

Shanez wrote: "I don't know if I should say this but there's this "belief" that a person has attained the status of a God when, he can take a life, something that God gave Hippolite, and because he can take it, he's like God? Does that make sense? One has such powerful control over oneself that suicide is possible. Suicide signifies the epitome of one's disbelief in God like Hippolite who is certainly not believing in God."

Oh yes, it has sense! But I don't want to spoiler too much Demons seen that Amalie haven't read it yet.
But this is the point: I take off my life, something that only God can do so this means that only for one moment I was like God.


Amalie wrote: "I personally don't think anyone one will try to kill ones self to show off! Those are crazy assumptions. I think anyone who's trying to commit suicide should be given attention, they need help and understanding (which is exactly what these self-destructive characters get from Myshkin), but that doesn't mean that they are SEEKING attention. Doctors say about 80% of those who try to commit suicide suffers from depression. Sad, really."

You will understand better this passage when you will read Demons, there it is really good written.
It is not for seeking attention but to do something only God can do. Consider it only a philosophical speculation, a hypothesis and don't try to understand this with what happens usually in real life.

[MountainAshleah]

I am not sure the motivation behind D's exploration--continued exploration--of suicide, execution,a nd the like, but I see it as part of the darkness of the human soul that he delves like few others (although as I type this I think of William Styron's wonderful Darkness Visible). I don't even think Hawthorne and Faulkner go as far . . . but my intent is not to compare darkness. I do agree with the comments about the Christian element, since suicide is so not part of the Christian way of dealing with life . . . and yet it is, along with murder (C&P), a "god-like" (in a twisted sense) action. Not to bring things back to authorial intent, but I find it hard to believe that d with all of his many problems (psychologically and otherwise) never thought of suicide as a means of escape. How powerful that he was able to transform his darkness into a body of work.


"But at the same time I noticed this: the most inveterate and unrepentant murderer still knows that he is a criminal, that is, in all conscience he considers that he has done wrong, though without any repentance."

[Riya]

my thoughts on the 3rd part of the book:

there are so many christian passages and themes in this part of the story. the phrasr "three days" is mentioned quite a bit - is it a reference to the there're days that Christ was dead before he was resurrected?

also, myshkin of course reminds everyone of Christ, but does any one feel like Rogozhin is similar to the devil? his own name is rogozhin - "Roga" is translated to mean horns in Russian. so who has horns? the devil does. rogozhins creepy house with red walls makes me think of hell.

Hippolite (or Ippolit as he i called in the book that i am reading) unfortunately reminds me of Judas Iscariot. i feel like he is bitter and jealous of myshkin and may perhaps be in cahoots with rogozhin

oh! and that scene with hippolite seeing rogozhins apparition was the creepieat thing that i have read in a really long time. that weird dream of his about the insect was spooky too.

[Riya]

sorry about all the typos! i am writing from my phone and the autocorrect feature on it sucks :(

[Amalie]

Mariya wrote: "my thoughts on the 3rd part of the book:

there are so many christian passages and themes in this part of the story. the phrasr "three days" is mentioned quite a bit - is it a reference to the ther..."

Yes Mariya, there are many biblical allusions to underscore the major themes and symbols in the novel. I read it some where that he did it focus on the pessimistic vision of the current spiritual state of Russia. We see almost all the characters surrounding Myshkin are spiritually declining if they've not already completely destroyed. Thanks for telling a possible meaning of Rogozhin's name, makes sense too. Rogozhin is actually Myshkin's alter-ego.


You know I want to get everyone's thought on this idea. I 'm reading for the first time so I don't know yet what will happen in the coming chapters; but, who is more realistic? I'm beginning to feel Myshkin to be unrealistic sometimes, too idealistic.

I understand that his emotional and intellectual development has been arrested by the circumstances surrounding his illness, may be that's the only why to justify this character. Myshkin represents a Christ-like figure right? A character of innate goodness, who believes that humility and brotherly love can transform the earth into a kind of heaven where all humankind can live in harmony.

Then we see Hippolite's feelings. So whose vision of this world—Hippolite's or Myshkin's—seems more accurate?

[[deleted user]]

MountainShelby wrote: "I am not sure the motivation behind D's exploration--continued exploration--of suicide, execution,a nd the like, but I see it as part of the darkness of the human soul that he delves like few other..."

Yes, possibly. May be in this novel he endowed Myshkin with epilepsy in an attempt to come to terms with the circumstances of his own condition?

As for suicide, I think it a sin in any religion. Islam views suicide as one of the greatest sins
and utterly detrimental to one's spiritual journey. Quran instructs; "And do not kill yourselves, surely God is most Merciful to you."

[[deleted user]]

Amalie wrote: "Then we see Hippolite's feelings. So whose vision of this world—Hippolite's or Myshkin's—seems more accurate?
..."

That's an interesting question Amalie, really. I don't know, I guess it depends on whether you want to be optimistic or pessimistic. Then may be also on what is idealistic and what is realistic :)

[Amalie]

Shanez wrote: "MountainShelby wrote: "I am not sure the motivation behind D's exploration--continued exploration--of suicide, execution,a nd the like, but I see it as part of the darkness of the human soul that h..."

I think suicide is forbidden in all religions. Different reasons as to why but even without the religious view, I think it's such a waste. We all have one life to live, even if you believe in reincarnation, you will only be YOU only in this life.

Christianity say "NO" to it too. Catholics believe one's life is a gift of God and a gift to the world and destroying it is a great sin.

My mother's a Buddhist so I know in Buddhism they say one's suffering derives from past negative deeds (karma) which will result continuing in Sansara (reincarnation). If someone commits suicide, he will be reborn in a sorrowful realm because the final negative thoughts and it'll take a parson away from the path to enlightenment.

This is interesting! learning about religions :)

[Azaghedi]

Amalie, actually, suicide is allowable in the Jain religion, if done properly and for the right reasons. For the right reasons would mean NOT due to depression or other such similar emotional affectations, but for ending the karmic cycle. The right way to do it is by starvation, since it is slow and allows for plenty of time to contemplate on the action. Also, since Jains are extremely non-violent, and since all humans commit violence in their lives--when you eat, you kill, when you drink you kill, when you step on the ground you are likely killing insects--by starving yourself, you are ending those killings.

There is a cognate in Hinduism as well (though whether or not Hinduism is a religion, per se, is debatable), and it's called prayopavesa.

[MountainAshleah]

Amalie wrote: "Mariya wrote: "my thoughts on the 3rd part of the book:

there are so many christian passages and themes in this part of the story. the phrasr "three days" is mentioned quite a bit - is it a refere..."

Myshkin has always seemed just too unworldly for me, which is why I have never been able to "connect" with him. I prefer an earthier character--to me they are just more interesting. Raskolvikov . . . ;}

[Azaghedi]

MountainShelby wrote: "Amalie wrote: "Mariya wrote: "my thoughts on the 3rd part of the book:

there are so many christian passages and themes in this part of the story. the phrasr "three days" is mentioned quite a bit ..."

Hear, hear! I loved Raskolnikov, even if he was a murderer, and disliked Myshkin, even if he was a saint. Yikes, Dostoevsky, what have you done to me? Damn you, how did you turn me into someone like this? :P

[MountainAshleah]

Literary bad boys are so much more fun.

[Amalie]

Steve wrote: "Amalie, actually, suicide is allowable in the Jain religion, if done properly and for the right reasons. For the right reasons would mean NOT due to depression or other such similar emotional affec..."

No, didn't know that. I think the stance in Indian religions differ. Even Buddhism does not condemn suicide it's like people who have achieved enlightenment do not commit suicide.


I just have one final thought/question in part 3. the letters Nastasya wrote to Aglaya are interesting. She sounds humble not like the Nastasya we have seen earlier. So we find two women are in love with Myshkin. But he is naïve when it comes to love a woman, the way Aglaya needs? The love he knows is the Christian ideal, right? I want to see what will happen next but for now, I feel, Myshkin does love Nastasya, because she needs it more. Moving on to the final part.

[MountainAshleah]

I don't think Myshkin is capable of an earthly love. His love seems much more ethereal.

Congrats, to all for completing Part Three and heading towards Part Four!!

[Tarun]

Steve wrote: "Amalie, actually, suicide is allowable in the Jain religion, if done properly and for the right reasons. For the right reasons would mean NOT due to depression or other such similar emotional affec..."

Since u were particularly talking of Jains -- their ritual of voluntary death by fasting -- it is actually called Santhara (or Samadhi Marana)and Jains dont consider Santhara as suicide but rather something one does with full knowledge and intent,while suicide they
view as emotional and a hasty decision.
Although this practice is illegal in India and any kind of attempt of suicide is punishable,but this in itself is contentious,since one can punish only an unsuccessful attempt of suicide.

[Azaghedi]

Tarun wrote: "Steve wrote: "Amalie, actually, suicide is allowable in the Jain religion, if done properly and for the right reasons. For the right reasons would mean NOT due to depression or other such similar e..."

Yes, that is true; I meant that it would be appear to be a form of suicide to a Western observer, since it's cessation of life brought about by direct cause from the individual, but indeed, Jains themselves would not consider it so.

[Tarun]

You are right.
And infact i heard about such an incident from someone not long time back about an aged Jain person who had taken such a vow after being diagnosed of incurable cancer who according to doctors had at best 3-4 months to live.Such a person is worshipped by fellow Jains during his fasting and is cremated in a sitting position rather than the normal lying position.

This case as it appears seems similar to that of euthanasia.

[dely]

Is this practice like Mahasamadhi? Or are there some differences?

[Azaghedi]

Tarun wrote: "You are right.
And infact i heard about such an incident from someone not long time back about an aged Jain person who had taken such a vow after being diagnosed of incurable cancer who according t..."

That is a very powerful story--thank you for sharing it.

[Tarun]

dely wrote: "Is this practice like Mahasamadhi? Or are there some differences?"

I really cant say what Mahasamadhi exactly is.But i know that its something which is performed by someone who has walked the path of enlightenment(a dovoted yogi) and has already achieved the wisdom/buddhahood and this is the final step of his where he lets go of his body.And obviously this is unheard of in today's world.

[Amalie]

Steve wrote: "Tarun wrote: "Steve wrote: "Amalie, actually, suicide is allowable in the Jain religion, if done properly and for the right reasons. For the right reasons would mean NOT due to depression or other ..."

Yeah. Abrahamic religions consider life is sacred (and it is!) and you are "murdering" what God has made so it's a SIN but The Dharmic and Taoist religions have a different view but I still think they are really saying "no no" to suicide.

Tarun's story is really interesting! Here's a story I heard of where these theories are wrongly applied. A handicapped committed suicide(a Buddhist), and he had believed that since there will be a next life, there will be a better chance in the that life. So the question is, was his final thought negative or positive.

I know in two Jataka Tales (represent former incarnations of Buddha) Lord Buddha's self (one as a rabbit and another as a King ...) kill himself but these are sacrifices. The focus is a benefit of another being, so the final thoughts are positive. But the earlier story, that young handicapped person is thinking of himself only and "selfish" so the final thought is negative. If a person didn't understand these philosophies correctly the results are really strange.

[[deleted user]]

dely wrote: "Is this practice like Mahasamadhi? Or are there some differences?"

I find this whole discussion very interesting! I'm not sure of Mahasamadhi either but you may find this interesting. http://www.yogananda-srf.org/pybio/Fi...

Amalie, I see you've mentioned about Taoist religions here and I know you are interested in it. Is their view on suicide similar to Jain religion or Buddhism?

[dely]

Shanez wrote: "I find this whole discussion very interesting! I'm not sure of Mahasamadhi either but you may find this interesting...."

Tarun wrote: "I really cant say what Mahasamadhi exactly is.But i know that its something which is performed by someone who has wa..."

Yes, Mahasamadhi is when a yogi/yogini has reached enlightment and leaves the body consciously. This should not be considered suicide because they know they have reached enlightenment and so the time has come to quit the earthly body. I was curious to know if also Santhara could be done only by persons who have attained enlightenment or if it could be done by everybody.

[Tarun]

dely wrote: I was curious to know if also Santhara could be done only by persons who have attained enlightenment or if it could be done by everybody.

As far as i understand,Mahavira, who led the Jain religion,gave permission to commit Santhara to any person who wanted to strengthen his spiritual discipline,i.e if anyone wished to give himself a final test.And for that he gave permission only to die of hunger but not from any other kind of instantaneous death which occurs by taking poison or shooting oneself.And this is a very hard test of willpower as it takes 75-90 days for a healthy person to die of hunger which is enough to shake the resolve of any determined person especially who is not driven by any other circumstantial reason for this resolve.

Whereas ordinarily,a man who commits suicide does not do it feeling himself responsible for it.He is mostly driven by certain circumstances to end his life and if the circumstances were not such he would drop the plan the same second.So he is obviously an escapist.

[Tarun]

Amalie wrote: "Steve wrote: "Tarun wrote: "Steve wrote: "Amalie, actually, suicide is allowable in the Jain religion, if done properly and for the right reasons. For the right reasons would mean NOT due to depres..."

Buddhist philosophies are the simplest and most practical ones which make them easier to incorporate them in one's daily lives.
As u said Buddhists believe in reincarnation or after birth but they also believe in the principle of cause and effect.Reincarnation to them is a stream of consciousness that links life with life.And the past link becomes the cause while the future one becomes the effect of the past.So being an escapist if one kills himself to become a better person in the next life will itself carry a negative cause to the next life and hence wont get a better life.

There are various kinds of buddhist practices as well and i might be wrong for speaking for all of them.As for me,i practice the Nichiren Buddhism and thts what I understand from that.

[Amalie]

Shanez wrote: "I see you've mentioned about Taoist religions here and I know you are interested in it. Is their view on suicide similar to Jain religion or Buddhism? ...."

I'm more into philosophical Taoism and it's the most beautiful thing I've found so far. As for for their view, suicide is simply not logical nor practical from a Taoist perspective. Taoism doesn’t see suicide as negative nor positive.. rather it sees the act of suicide as 100% pointless which I also believe.

There are some similarities I guess. Like in Buddhism, Taoism focuses on living a simple and balanced life in harmony with nature.Taoism says that conflict is not good and that if you have a problem with something, it is better to find a way around it( same principle is used in Martial Arts). So the moment you feel life needs to end, is the time not to end life, but to change life, walk away from the problems or what is driving that feeling of embracing death. Different paths do exist: Always. A Taoist discovers all paths.


Tarun wrote: "Buddhist philosophies are the simplest and most practical ones which make them easier to incorporate them in one's daily lives...."

Yes they are absolutely! but, I don't see many people do it right, at least where I come from :)

[Tarun]

Tarun wrote: "Buddhist philosophies are the simplest and most practical ones which make them easier to incorporate them in one's daily lives...."

Yes they are absolutely! but, I don't see many people do it right, at least where I come from :)





Well i dont think Buddhist philosophy prepares one to do anything other than condition one's own life.And if one's able to condition one's life by overcoming fear and is able to alleviate one's suffering if not eradicate it completely and seize happiness for oneself in the present day consequently -- well thats exactly whats the right state/buddhahood!

If one gets the confidence/inner belief in oneself that this buddhahood is inherent in all life including one's own,one's ability to see possibilities as well as the vitality,wisdom and persistence to realise them gets enhanced.And this is contagious as well! :)

If u practice Buddhism with a goal,there can be no wrong way -- atleast i feel that way.

[[deleted user]]

Amalie wrote: "Shanez wrote: "I see you've mentioned about Taoist religions here and I know you are interested in it. Is their view on suicide similar to Jain religion or Buddhism? ...."

I'm more into philosophi..."

Beautiful! Thanks for sharing.