Discovering Russian Literature discussion
This topic is about
The Idiot
Group Reads Archive - 2012
>
The Idiot Part 2 Chapters 1 thru 12 (January 15 to 25)
date
newest »
newest »
message 1:
by
MountainAshleah
(last edited Jan 04, 2012 07:58AM)
(new)
-
rated it 4 stars
Dec 30, 2011 06:10AM
ONLY if you comment on something beyond these chapters, please warn others with ***spoilers included**** or use the formatting tips in Goodreads, (some html is ok)
reply
|
flag
"From the beginning of Part II, the Prince is cast in a tragic (or at least self-sacrificial) role, and the inner logic of his character now requires that the absolute of Christian love should conflict irreconcilably with the inescapable demands of normal human life." Joseph Frank
What is the significance of Aglaya placing Myshkin's "muddle-headed note" into a copy of Don Quixote?
Rogozhin and Myshkin have an intense and increasingly dark conversation about Nastasya. Despite everything that has happened (spoilers left out), Nastasya claims to Rogozhin, "I'm still my own mistress." Is she?
Comment on Myshkin's statement: "A man could even lose his faith from that painting!" (It's worth looking at the image of Christ's Body in the Tomb for full impact.)
Mod
Before coming to this I just want to comment on the character Madame du Barry. I think she is another example—along with Marie and Nastasya—of a fallen woman who is driven to destruction.
Shelby very very good question. I'm reading like crazy these days :) Here's what I think. We find the painting in Rogozhin's house. We see that his house matches his personality. It is dark and gloomy, the windows have iron bars and the odd colours including red (the color of blood and I think foreshadows what he's about to do next: kill Myshkin) all so strange then instead of more celebrated painting of Christ's Resurrection, he got a painting of the tortured Christ still dead. I think it shows how Rogozhin is as a person. He too is dead and a "resurrection" from his current condition is not possible because he associates with crooks and drunks, his love for Nastasya is violent not pure. He is jealous to sum up he got so many negative qualities as a human being, the picture emphasizes that lack of faith in Rogozhin.
Then in his stories of Myshkin the fundamental idea of Christ is displayed: the importance of faith.
Myshkin says: "The essence of religious feeling has nothing to do with reasoning, or transgressions, or crimes, or atheism; it is something quite different and always will be, it is something our atheist will always gloss over and avoid discussing." What a point!
Honestly, I feel like I'm reading these for the first time. I have to check my five stars again because I don't know why I gave them then ;) I clearly didn't understand these Christian symbols. Thanks for continuing the discussion.
I wish the voters just don't abandon the discussions. I was looking forward to read Anna then these got selected and now only 4 or 5 remain for the reading and among them, I didn't even vote for this novel. It's irritating!
Here's a nice article I just found about Hans Holbein's painting. http://santitafarella.wordpress.com/2...
Here's another: http://community.middlebury.edu/~beye...
and, Amalie, I think you're reading it right!
I wish the voters just don't abandon the discussions. I was looking forward to read Anna then these got selected and now only 4 or 5 remain for the reading and among them, I didn't even vote for this novel. It's irritating!
Here's a nice article I just found about Hans Holbein's painting. http://santitafarella.wordpress.com/2...
Here's another: http://community.middlebury.edu/~beye...
and, Amalie, I think you're reading it right!
Amalie wrote: "MountainShelby wrote: "Comment on Myshkin's statement: "A man could even lose his faith from that painting!" (It's worth looking at the image of Christ's Body in the Tomb for full impact.)"Before..."
I agree with these comments. Rogozhin is a very troubled, malicious character--as reflected in his actions, his surroundings, and the impact he has on other characters. The violence is so matter-of-fact, so a part of his makeup . . .
Shanez wrote: "Honestly, I feel like I'm reading these for the first time. I have to check my five stars again because I don't know why I gave them then ;) I clearly didn't understand these Christian symbols. Tha..."Oh, I don't normally pick up on symbols of any kind (I have to be hit over the head), but D is so overtly Christian in his writings, and I've read enough outside material to get that pounded even into my brain. And yet . . . strange but true confessions . . . I wish he had not been a Christian-based writer. His works would have been different, certainly, but perhaps arguably more complex. I see the vegetables flying in my direction . . .
"Here's a nice article I just found about Hans Holbein's painting. http://santitafarella.wordpress.com/2009..."Just this short blog entry really is worth studying, especially Ippolit's response.
"The picture seems to give expression to the idea of a dark, insolent, and senselessly eternal power, to which everything is subordinated, and this idea is suggested to you unconsciously."
"And if, on the eve of the crucifixion, the Master could have seen what He would look like when taken from the cross, would he have mounted the cross and died as he did?”
All,If you have had to--or chosen to--abandon The idiot for now, feel free to share your thoughts. I was hoping to keep the conversation going, but I know life can get in the way.
Mod
If you have had to--or chosen to--abandon The idiot for now, feel free to share your thoughts. I was hoping to keep the conversation going, but I know life can get in the way."
This happens a lot Shelby, unfortunately. I wasn't planning to read this either like Shanez but now I'm going to continue. I'm experiencing dry eyes these days for reading too much so I took a break from extra reading. I think we have to set some rules about voting. People who are not interesting in joining for these should not interfere, by voting which means a different book will be selected and those who were looking forward to read another lost there chance.
It's always tempting to vote (everyone likes his/her opinion to count), but I agree with you and I also do abstain from voting when I know I can't join in. Hopefully people will one day go back to this book, or pick it up again for the first time . . . I'll continue to post some prompts, probably just scenes I noted in the margins the first time I read The Idiot.
Mod
Yes, it's little too much, isn't it? :)
I finished reading this section and going to move to the next. Here are something I noticed.
Nastasya seems to disappear and Aglaya emerges as the main female character. Although she has often joked about the "poor knight", I think she is serious about it. Speaking of the poem, Aglaya remarks "because the poem depicts a man who is capable of an ideal...capable of believing in it." In creating Myshkin, Dostoevsky wished to portray the "ideal man." as someone earlier mentioned here. I'm not sure though, what Aglaya is feeling towards Myshkin, I felt her laughing at Myshkin seemingly as a way of expressing her interest in him?
But as for Myshkin being a "poor knight" far from the truth. He doesn't pick ideals and blindly follow them. He cares about Nastasya for real reasons, he tries to save Nastasya from her self destruction. Myshkin neither hurts others to achieve his ideals.
The whole scene of Burdovsky and men introduces more sinners.
The most interesting part of this section is perhaps Hippolite who I think is a foil to Myshkin. He is another character "dying" just like Rogozhin or Nastasya but unlike the other two Hippolite completely rejects and hates Myshkin. So why? Hippolite does not believe in God, he feels betrayed by God for letting him die young but we see Myshkin strongly believe in God, despite the fact that he suffers from epilepsy- a ailment that will never disappear. Who suffers more is the question. Myshkin 's illness makes him an outsider, people fears him and they cannot understand him so who should feel more betrayed by nature and/or God, is the question.
Amalie wrote: "The most interesting part of this section is perhaps Hippolite who I think is a foil to Myshkin. He is another character "dying" just like Rogozhin or Nastasya but unlike the other two Hippolite completely rejects and hates Myshkin. So why? Hippolite does not believe in God, he feels betrayed by God for letting him die young but we see Myshkin strongly believe in God, despite the fact that he suffers from epilepsy- a ailment that will never disappear. Who suffers more is the question. Myshkin 's illness makes him an outsider, people fears him and they cannot understand him so who should feel more betrayed by nature and/or God, is the question. "My opinion is that Hippolite hates Myshkin because though he is sick and mistreated he doesn't matter a lot and doesn't suffer his condition like Hippolite instead does. This because the big faith Myshkin has does help him; surely Hippolite is not able to have faith (though he probably would like to have) and so he hates Myshkin who is able to believe; perhaps it's like a sort of envy.
Hippolite suffers more because while Myshkin takes strenght from his faith, Hippolite can't do it.
Me too, I haven't voted on the poll because I have already read The Idiot and it is a pity that the people who have voted are not involved in the topic.
If memory serves, I really felt for Hippolite (P&V translation is Ippolet or something like that) in his suffering. I don't have the book with me . . . this is only the impression left as I read your posts. There was a reality to his suffering, versus Myshkin who always seems so unrealistically angelic in his faith . . .
Mod
Here's an article of those auras. http://epilepsy.about.com/od/symptoms...
I guess even if we take the religious idea away, there is always two ways to look at something. Myshkin as you've said, take his strength from faith and accept what he has rather than fighting it. Hippolite have to fight it because he is dying where as Myshkin, though with an ailment, he still have his life, it may be a difficult life, a different life but he is still alive.
As for voters not joining the discussion, well, we can't force them to join now, but perhaps I have to come up with a new voting system.
"Hippolite have to fight it because he is dying where as Myshkin, though with an ailment, he still have his life, it may be a difficult life, a different life but he is still alive." Yes, I agree. And now I'm thinking there is a link between the bodily wasting of Hippolite and the Holbein painting, which is quite arresting in its depiction of the deceased Christ. I had not thought of this before.
Amalie wrote: "Hippolite have to fight it because he is dying where as Myshkin, though with an ailment, he still have his life, it may be a difficult life, a different life but he is still alive. "Perhaps Hippolite thinks that his life is more worth than the one of Myshkin. He can't understand why such an "idiot" like Myshkin can live and he himself must die. He surely thinks that this is an injustice and so he hates Myshkin and much more he hates God for this "choice".
@MountainShelby: this can be true! Me neither had thought about this before.
dely wrote: "Amalie wrote: "Hippolite have to fight it because he is dying where as Myshkin, though with an ailment, he still have his life, it may be a difficult life, a different life but he is still alive. ..."I can see that perspective, sure.
