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Ulysses
Ulysses - Spine 2012
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Questions, Resources and General Banter - Ulysses
It's James Joyce's birthday today! Not sure if this is something he actually drank, but I keep seeing references to this James Joyce Cocktail:
http://www.gumbopages.com/food/bevera...
I'm pouring one tonight... It appears to be an Irish whiskey version of the "Oriental" cocktail.
Mod
Not sure if this is something he actually drank, but I keep seeing references to this James Joyce Cocktail:
http://www.gumbopages.com/food/bevera......"
An Aquarius... no wonder all the water references.
Luckily, I have a fresh bottle of Jameson's in the cabinet, and it's -8 degrees Celsius right now, so there ya have it lads...
Jim wrote: "Jt wrote: "It's James Joyce's birthday today! Not sure if this is something he actually drank, but I keep seeing references to this James Joyce Cocktail:
http://www.gumbopages.com/food/beverages..."
The sacred pint alone can unbind the tongue of Jim!
Thanks for the detailed post about the Gilbert schema, Jim. It did help connect the dots. I just received my copy of the Gilbert guide in the mail today!! I've barely read any of it yet, but it has already helped tremendously. But it has also made me feel a bit stupid...ha.
Mod
You're welcome!
Try not to feel stupid - not even a bit. Instead, think of Joyce as being exceptionally well-educated. He spent many years among the Jesuits, who are known for their rigorous scholarship. Joyce had excellent command of an entire library of human knowledge, including eastern and western philosophy. Very few people today can claim a similar education, and so it isn't easy to follow Joyce through this history of human knowledge without having a guidebook handy - which is precisely why he worked with Stuart Gilbert to create the schema and the book. We're all in the same boat as we navigate this modernist Odyssey...
Also, let's not forget that which people tend to forget, especially in my chosen field, composing music. There's a tendency to feel that the artist creates in the way you experience it. To put it in the context of Ulysses, Joyce didn't just sit down and write it, even if you sit down and just read it. He spent years writing, editing, polishing and honing the text, adding layers, etc. It's easy to accidentally give the artist magical powers when this is forgotten.
Jim wrote: "Ashley wrote: "Thanks for the detailed post about the Gilbert schema, Jim. It did help connect the dots. I just received my copy of the Gilbert guide in the mail today!! I've barely read any of i..."So he worked with Gilbert to help him help the readers understand what he was writing.....amazing lol
Will wrote: "Also, let's not forget that which people tend to forget, especially in my chosen field, composing music. There's a tendency to feel that the artist creates in the way you experience it. To put it i..."So will are you saying James Patterson and the like are not artists LOLOLOL
Well, even he CLAIMS to heavily outline and layer material. Having read a few of his books (thanks, O'Hare airport, for having such amazing book selections) it is honestly hard to see where that effort goes. I hear that many people claim he doesn't actually write the books himself, but I've heard that about a few people, and I leave the subject to more interested and involved parties.I continue to digress (whilst also returning to Ulysses) by quoting concert pianist Jeremy Denk, who wrote this passage that I keep printed above my piano as a reminder: (from http://jeremydenk.net/blog/2005/04/14...)
The thing is, you don’t have to write a piece through in one go. You don’t have to concentrate on everything at once; you can “gradually multitask,” and devote yourself by turns to various elements … There is this mythic notion that you conceive a piece all in one inspiration, but I think Beethoven’s sketches very clearly show a different, gradual process–the fleshing out of a thought, the step-by-step addition of ideas, layers, unforeseen anomalies–the “hewing” of a piece, in the sense of this definition: “To cut something by repeated blows.” The different cuts of the mind from different directions, finally creating a 3-dimensional musical object.
This applies, I think, to Ulysses quite well, and I imagine him adding layers and connections while moving around a war-torn Europe.
I don't know about anyone else, but the further I get into Ulysses the more I find the characters and the writing screaming "The author is brilliant! The author is brilliant!". I can't help but agree.
I am trying very hard to stay on course and not get ahead so I am leaving my reading until Sunday and Monday :) otherwise I will just dive in and not come up until I am finished
Sue wrote: "I am trying very hard to stay on course and not get ahead so I am leaving my reading until Sunday and Monday :) otherwise I will just dive in and not come up until I am finished"And I am appreciating the almost perfectly measured schedule -- being able to set aside Sat or Sun morning as quiet time for a first read and second read with notes and then re-skimming during the work week as discussion ensues.
But week seven looks to be pretty brutal -- two episodes totaling 215ish pages (the other weeks are 80-120 pages, except week one). Weirdly, in my book Episode 15 concludes Part II and Episode 16 is the beginning of Part III. If I make it this far, this week may do me in, as it also coincides with a busy work week. :(
OK - I'm gonna do it! February 13th ... I've downloaded the audio from LibriVoxhttp://librivox.org/ulysses-by-james-...
I'm gonna spend the week on this book - I've got the text (given here at GR) bookmarked so I can follow it along.
To facilitate my keeping my asbergers mind on this one - ha ha! To keep my mind on it, I'm going to allow myself NO LISTENING to other books this week.
I remember doing the Odyssey at B & N (Laurel will remember). Bent my mind on that one ... whew! Then we took on War & Peace - ha ha! I ended up leading a discussion on that one at Reading Guides! What a job that was! Had to get one of the girls to take over for me a couple of times, just so I could fit my naps in.
Anyway - here I go - I'll be back in here once a day (at least) to see what you fellow-brain-pains have to say on this.
Mod
http://librivox.org/ulysses-by-james-...
I'm gonna spend the week on this book - I've got the text (given he..."
Bravo! Joyce is gonna take your ears and your brain for quite a ride. Enjoy!
I've done a section, Jim - and I appreciate that link someone here gave to the Wikipedia - the part where it is plotted out section by section and its relation to the Odyssey.I'm going to listen to EACH section ... episode ... and read the text - yeah ... until I thoroughly understand it.
You people, of course, are going to enable me to do that - I'll be lurking a lot! A threat or a promise?
BOTH!
I do promise to comment regularly, of course - does the sun set in the west? Does a bear shit in the woods?
Not if you put down enough litter on the back porch.
;-)
Mod
;-) "
Good one!
I'm curious what you think about the audio versus reading the text. Let us know how it goes for you.
Jim, I'm gonna leave a link to all my comments regarding Ceridwen's review and the ridiculous but terribly funny responses she got to the tune of some seven-and-a-half hundred posts, on my own forums at Wild City - so I won't be hogging a post with them here at Brain Pain ...http://wildcity.proboards.com/index.c...
I'm linking back to our club here, of course.
OK - about audio? I love doing audio - not 'cause I'm lazy, but I get more read that way - and I can play with important games like mahjonng, etc. Not to mention the devil's own invention - FREECELL and the scrabble games at InYerFace.I truly DO read books in text, as well ... honest ... but I prefer audio. 'Specially the stuff I can pull down from the net library or LibraVox.
Now on with your next link - got a feeling I'll be spending the day reading all the links ABOUT this book, including the party at Ceridwen's review - took me all morning to get through that - kittens and all.
Mod
I'm curious about what Ulysses sounds like. When you read the text, there is punctuation, word spacing, and line breaks to help you decipher what is spoken and what is thought. Without those visual reading clues, I wonder if Ulysses is easier or harder to follow.
RE: Freecell - I had to go cold-turkey and join a 12-step program - Freecellaholics Anonymous. "Hi, I'm Jim and I'm a Freecellaholic. I haven't played Freecell in 247 days...."
I'm assumin', Lad, that the Declan Kiberd intro you're referring to is the one found in the Amazon link (the LookInsideBookie)?I'm readin' it now ...
http://www.amazon.com/Ulysses-Modern-...
Just practicin' me Irish here ... I'm actually half-Welsh, and we're just as clever with the blarney, lemmee tell ya'.
The Welsh is on me left wing ... my mother was far too sensible - a terrible influence on me, I tell ya'.
Mod
I'm readin' it now ...
http://www.amazon.com/Ulysses-Modern-Cla..."
Aye Lassie! 'Tis the right edition ye be saerchin' o'the Amazon, by God!
If you want to get a fix on an audio version, just go right into LibraVox - put Joyce in the author window and you'll be taken to a page where you can get MP3's - you CAN download it into a zip file - takes about 15 to 20 min - doesn't hog your broadband either.I have a CD collection on order from the library - I'll be curious to see what that's like.
LibraVox has various readers - I did the whole of War and Peace from their recordings - most of them were good, some of 'em I wanted to scream.
Mod
Good idea! I'll check it out...
I've worked hard this morning - mostly horsin' around at Ceridwen's thread, but still ... gonna' finish reading that intro, then reward myself with a few rounds of scrabble at Face.If you're looking for me there, I'm under Carly Hainsworth Svamvour (fancy name, I know, but it truly is mine - Svamvour is supposedly French - dates back to some village in France that sounds like soup - 200 years ago - it means good looking, intelligent, and modest)
Hainsworth - 'twas me maiden name - a good English family, was me father's. A buncha gossipin women, was me Welsh mother's.
I'll be disappearin' from this thread after I've read the intro.
See ya' later.
(good grief - his brother's name was Stanislaw? good irish name, eh? heh! heh!)
OK - I'm not gonna' finish this intro - I'll wait for the movie - maybe do it later.:-)
Jim wrote: "Carly wrote: "Not if you put down enough litter on the back porch.;-) "
Good one!
I'm curious what you think about the audio versus reading the text. Let us know how it goes for you."
Jumping in here on the audio version , the version I have is wonderful and there is singing and the parts that Joyce wants 'you the reader' to make sounds from his writings to understand the workings of the newspaper room rather made me giggle as I would never have sounded out some of those words that way. I enjoy being read to so for me the first go through being read to is captivating to say the least.
Carly wrote: "OK - about audio? I love doing audio - not 'cause I'm lazy, but I get more read that way - and I can play with important games like mahjonng, etc. Not to mention the devil's own invention - FREECEL..."I too Carly love audio for all the same reasons as you but another I will add is that I can read all day whilst doing my daily chores :) Glad to find another audio lover :)
Carly wrote: "Now on with your next link - got a feeling I'll be spending the day reading all the links ABOUT this book, including the party at Ceridwen's review - took me all morning to get through that - kitt..."Audio also gives you more time to read all these long reviews I also loved Cerwidwin's review!!!
Jim wrote: "Carly wrote: "OK - about audio? I love doing audio - not 'cause I'm lazy, but I get more read that way - and I can play with important games like mahjonng, etc. Not to mention the devil's own inven..."Jim , the audio does indeed bring those pieces Joyce wrote to life where it just seems as though you are doing the thinking??? I dont think about things saying ....
" A bit nervy. Look out for squalls. All off for a drink. Arm in arm. Lenehan's yachting cap on the cadge beyond. Ususal blarney. Wonder is that young Dedalus the moving spirit. Has a good pair of boots on him today. Last time I saw him he had his heels on view. Been walking in muck somewhere. Careless chap. What was he doing in Irishtown?"
Love the way that is read to me.... like the way I think ?? I dont make sentences when I am looking at a situation and processing things. Makes me feel like I am doing the same. Just thinking. Thinking about Joyce writing about me thinking. hehehe
I've got another audio version coming in from the library.And there's probably another on the net library - haven't seen it yet though. I'll just wait for the set of CD's to come in for me.
It won't hurt to have two versions to use.
And the actual text reading - well, I'm using the one provided here at GR.
Haven't actually considered bringing the BOOK home yet - Jeff took down the door to our bedroom a while back - to make more room for bookshelf - ha ha!
So I don't need a DOORSTOP!
Ahhhh ... what the heck - maybe I'll step into the elevator at the library and go up to the section marked J, as in JOYCE and come out with the doorstop. Maybe even haul the books about the book, etal ... I like having a few books stacked beside the desk here -makes me look intelligent.
Sue wrote: "Carly wrote: "Now on with your next link - got a feeling I'll be spending the day reading all the links ABOUT this book, including the party at Ceridwen's review - took me all morning to get throug..."Sue - you read the Ceridwen thread - what did you think of all that convo in the way of comments. After I put a few posts in yesterday, they all came back and started chattering about that guy VirJohn again - months after! With that group in there, talking about the guy seems to have become a 'cult' in itself.
Just love it!
Yeah, as I'm listening to these first few sections, I'm getting the feel of a few guys off for a night's partying, all bantering back and forth.I think that's in the movie about Joyce, isn't it? The one where Gwynneth Paltro plays the part of his wife?
For sure, I'll be wanting to watch that movie again.
I suspect, however, that much of Joyce's life involved out partying with the boys. Heh! Heh!
So, my schedule as follows:My mornings will be spent reading at least one review (today it's Paul Bryant's), and the ensuing convos.
Late afternoon & early evening:
While playing FreeCell, Hearts, Scrabble at Face, I'll be listening to my audios on the first 6 sections - over and OVER AGAIN! Whew!
Nicely rounded life, I'd say - good job I don't have to go out to work anymore - ha ha!
OK - I'm going back to the beginning of this thread to click on links - and the ensuing links found at the links ... just like poor Groucho in that film.
Mod
Does anyone have a link to a decent free/cheap audiobook?
Whitney wrote: "I highly recommend checking out Frank Delany's "Re:Joyce" podcasts. Around 5 minutes a week deconstructing Ulysses. Now on episode 80, part way into chapter 2. Probably 20 more years or so worth of..."Thanks, Whitney - I'm going to link in there right now to see what's happening.
Whitney wrote: "I highly recommend checking out Frank Delany's "Re:Joyce" podcasts. Around 5 minutes a week deconstructing Ulysses. Now on episode 80, part way into chapter 2. Probably 20 more years or so worth of..."http://blog.frankdelaney.com/re-joyce/
Trying to figure out how to connect with the podcasts from Section 1 - you need to have I-Pods on your machine to do this. Anyway, I've found this one on Delaney's site ...
Occupy Ulysses
Now, I truly liked that! I've heard of this guy before - heard him speak, read little bits from him but this is the first time I ever took a look at him. I'd love to see that man (Delaney) in person. Would have loved to be there in that square in NY as he 'occupied Ulysses'!
Well, I'm gonna spend a little time feeling my way around that site this morning - see what I can figure out on my own without consulting 'matters techie' there in the bedroom, who is on his machine - most likely protecting his wall at FaceBook - he's a new user and he's still nervous of the thing - ha ha!
Anyway - about Frank Delaney - I've fallen madly in love and must have more!
Funny how my heritage is English/Welsh - yet I'm nuts about the Irish. One of the main characters I'm working on now in my story writing is Evelyn Fagan - she's the only Irish woman amidst a family of Welsh!
That's twice in a row I've gotten a 'hang' on that site - dunno' why. I H8T that! And I can't close it down without closing down other internet windows.
Grrrrr!
Laurele wrote: "Whitney wrote: "I highly recommend checking out Frank Delany's "Re:Joyce" podcasts. Around 5 minutes a week deconstructing Ulysses. Now on episode 80, part way into chapter 2. Probably 20 more year..."But do you have to put the i pods program on your computer to get them - I don't use an i-pod - for outdoor listening, I use an MP3 player.
OK - hope y'all packed a lunch - I just wrote another lot of comments - take 'em or leave 'em:I've gone to You Tube to see if I can find the individual podcasts - just about everything can be found there ... so far, I've found:
A Rap Tribute to James Joyce by Frank Delaney ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5EeA_...
Cute ...
..........................
Yes (James Joyce)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBh1d7...
You can't just listen - it's mostly reading and listening there.
..........................
Stories Create Realities - Frank Delaney
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxxrjw...
I feel like a FreeCell break, so I'll listen to this.
.........................
Enya - March of the Celts
Off topic, I know, but I like Enya, so might give this a listen ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_m8E3...
'Twas nice, but short - very little of Enya's voice in there
..........................
'Nough of that - can't go looking for Enya or I'll truly be out-of-the-Joyce-zone.
..........................
OK - not finding the full lineup of podcasts from You Tube either ... I'm sure I'll figure this out. Can't seem to stay on Delaney's site - I keep getting booted out. Maybe I'll go back and just run that site with nothing else up...........................
Back to Paul Bryant's review - haven't read the comments yet ...
http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/33...
Paul's link to a guide ...
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/59...
Another link from Paul ...
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/42...
It's a good review - it's splashed all over the site though, so you have to hunt for the segments as he's done them.
The comments aren't as rollicking good fun as the one on Ceridwen's review - ha ha!
...........................
Now I'm gonna take a look at Brant's link to the hyperwhatever document on this ...
http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~rac101/conco...
Good gawd! There's two buttons there - slow and start ... I'm choosing stop.
Thanks anyway, Brant.
..............................
Ian's link to his review - the fun one ...http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...
Ian's reading notes ...
http://www.goodreads.com/story/show/2...
(I'm relieved to see others doing reading notes - I've scratched up a few of 'em, all under a neat directory and I'm only on the intro thread, the reviews, etc. That and a little desultory listening)
Ha ha! I've never seen anybody publish their writing while drunk - had I saved it, in my younger days when I was still old enough to drink, I'd have a DOORSTOP full of my scratchings.
quote
Upside Down and Inverted
I haven't been able to find any inverted commas in my version.
This might mean that this book is all action and no dialogue.
Or it might mean that they hadn't invented inverted commas in the days of Ulysses.
Either that or they were all uninverted then.
unquote
Too funny, Ian. No smart quotes for our boy JJ.
quote
The March of a Thousand Wikipedes
I am thinking of writing all of the headings from the Wikipedia article on Ulysses at the beginning of each chapter (in pencil, in case someone edits them while I'm reading the book), because I'm sure it will aid comprehension.
unquote
I too am using the synopsis headings from Wiki.
But I like Paul Bryant's short synopsis on the segments too.
Anthony Burgess? I don't exactly remember who he is myself ... but he IS somebody important, so I guess I shouldn't say that too loud. People tend to 'peg out' after I talk about them - it's the vibes in the universe - they eavesdrop on my conversations.
I killed Elvis Presley, btw.
Ian, did you ever know a writer/poet by the name of Jonesy? A Toronto writer who drank a lot/wrote a lot. You remind me of him in this 'fun' review of yours. I am guilty of encouraging this drunken lad by drinking with him one night after a poetry reading - we closed the place, and drank the tip money. Not proud of that, and I do not remember what we talked about while doing so, but it was a hell of a good time.
Like I say, I am no longer old enough to drink.
'for dog's sake' ... that's cute - like my way of saying 'for gawd's sake', in case HE or SHE is listening.
About word count at GR ... word count functions were invented by the devil, as was FreeCell.
................
Ahhhhh! Proves it! Some of the greatest poems are written while stoned ...
If Telemachus is 1
Then Nestor is 2
Then Proteus is 3
Calypso, what you waiting 4?
If man is 5
Then the devil is 6
Then god is 7
This monkey's gone to heaven.
...............
The link to Anthony Burgess - GR
http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/...
Ahhhh! I knew he was 'somebody'. Poor soul died in 93, so I guess the vibes in the universe can't bite me this time.
(glad I didn't say anything about Whitney Houston last week - I did, actually, watch the Bodyguard about 10 days before her death ... still give me the shivers thinking about it)
...................
OK - now for Ian's informal but detailed review ...http://www.goodreads.com/story/show/2...
(Gee, you Joyce freaks are a lotta fun! Although I'm a reformed alk, I can taste the beer, y'know?)
quote
What originally intimidated me (and frankly continues to intimidate me) is the possibility, the risk that "Ulysses" might end up being a giant, 900 page Rubik's Cube.
I am prepared to toy with it for hundreds of hours, until one day, awake or asleep, I unlock its mysteries.
unquote
Ian, this reminds me of my youngest daughter when she was a little girl - and I guess she's not the only kid that's done this. She took her Rubik's cube into her room, peeled off all the squares and re-pasted them in order. Then emerged from her room to show the family her 'completed' cube.
I wonder if this wouldn't be a good theme for a review on this book. Maybe (if I ever DO try to write a review) I'll work it up like that. If one of you does it first, I won't be offended.
.............................
"Ulysses" is an epic of three races: the Jews, the Irish and the horse races.
ROTFLOL! *Snort*
You are too muckin'fuch, baby!
............................
quote
Molly engages on a long list of liaisons, Bloom seeks out the company of prostitutes and barmaids.
Yet they remain together.
They co-exist, they co-habit, they share a bed, to the extent that Bloom even sleeps in the wetspot of Molly's infidelity.
unquote
quote
We don't see a lot of her relationship with Milly, we don't see how maternal she is.
She seems to be interested in her own physical pleasure (and why not).
She is not the Virgin Mary by any measure.
unquote
Ian, you made another poem there.
Ian, if you're still bendin' that elbow of yours, order a Carlsberg and drink it for me.
Thanks for the great reviews - both drunken and informal but detailed.
Jim wrote: "I downloaded a free audio version of Ulysses, but it wasn't very good.Does anyone have a link to a decent free/cheap audiobook?"
Was it the LibraVox version I gave you? Gotta' admit, that's kinda here nor there ... maybe your library can get you a set of CD's in.
'Twould be nice to have a set of CD's with that fella, Frank Delaney, reading the whole book.
Oh, vibes in the universe, please hear me.
:-)
Right - gonna be quiet for a while. 1) few rounds of scrabble;
2) out for a coffee break;
3) possible nap;
4) lunch
Then - listen to some more of the libra vox recordings.
:-)
Carly wrote: "Sue wrote: "Carly wrote: "Now on with your next link - got a feeling I'll be spending the day reading all the links ABOUT this book, including the party at Ceridwen's review - took me all morning t..."I found it all quite amusing :D
Good news:1) I read over the first section (with my EYES - no help from 'friends' (audio). And I actually understood what was going on!
2) I obtained (downloaded) an excellent audio from the Net Library - like it much better than the LibraVox collection. I will keep that, however, just to compare with. And I will CERTAINLY keep my order open for the CD's from the library.
BTW, if any of you readers are Toronto Public Library patrons, don't turn your nose up at what's available from the Net Library - I've had some excellent audios from there - it beats having to go in and out of the library for disks all the time.
Not, of course, good for library employees - this is just down the town's alley - more paperless world, less staff to pay at the libraries.
But ya' can't have everything.
I'll be looking over some more links this morning, maybe read another review.
And, I'm going to welch on my promise to not listen to any other books - I'm going to allow myself to read a bit of Kafka on the Shore today. Don't want to actually DROWN in Joyce.
Nancy wrote: "Will wrote: "...for me this is part of the fun."Like :)"
Hey! Fun, indeed ... that'll be enough of that!
;-)
Brain Pain
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The keys to understanding the Proteus episode, and the book as a whole, can be found in the Gilbert Schema:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbert_...
For each episode, take into account the Episode title first, because its correspondence to The Odyssey provides the basic structure. In the case of Episode 3, Proteus, there is a scene where Menelaus is told to take hold of Proteus while he sleeps and to not let go until Proteus relents, at which time, he will reveal all that Menelaus wishes to know. However, Proteus will change forms while Menelaus holds him, from "the forms of a lion, a serpent, a leopard, a pig, even of water or a tree." (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proteus ) While observing all that surrounds him on the Strand, Stephen's language changes form as his thoughts change form - one stimuli after another in a free association, stream of conscious flow, from lion to serpent to frauenzimmer to cocklepicker - which leads us to the next element from the schema - "Art".
The "Art" for Episode 3 is Philology - the study of language. The Greek root 'philos' can mean "love" and 'logos' can mean "word" and can be thought of as "love of language" or "love of literature". Stephen, and by extension Joyce, are clearly lovers of language and literature. (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philology ) For many of the words (signs) used by Stephen, an alternative could also be used - an alternative "Protean" form.
Also make note of the "Technic" and "Symbol" for each episode as we move through the book.
While each of us have chosen different materials and methods for reading Ulysses, I believe that using the Gilbert Schema is an excellent way to get the big picture for each of the episodes. Looking at the details (the trees) is important, but the big picture (the forest) view will provide a context for understanding how those endless details come together and why.