Questions, Resources and General Banter - The Waste Land

[Jim]

Okay, so we'll revisit the Gatsby idea around mid-March and make a reading/discussion plan...

[Bill]

Mid-March is good.

[Bill]

All right, everyone. my "CLUES FOR READING THE WASTE LAND" has been posted -- so for anyone looking for a way into this poem, I think you have one. Because it's not a discussion, it's locked down. It's meant simply to help people get into the poem.

[Traveller]

Thanks Bill, it's looking good. :)

[Jeanne]

Thank you, Bill.

[Jim]

Jeanne wrote: "Thank you, Bill."

They're really good clues, aren't they?!

Between the clues and the Norton Critical edition, I think we're going to know The Waste Land inside and out by the end of April...

[Ashley]

Jim wrote: "They're really good clues, aren't they?!

Between the clues and the Norton Critical edition, I think we're going to know The Waste Land inside and out by the end o..."

Yes, they are great clues! I'm sure I'll need all the help I can get, as poetry is not my forte, and these notes will be really helpful. Thanks, Bill!

[Bill]

Thanks, guys, glad they were useful. I don't think it's a poem where one should have to go it alone.

I knew that Fitzgerald liked The Waste Land. I didn't know that he had sent Eliot a copy of The Great Gatsby who liked it very, very much and said he read it three times. :-)

[Bill]

Also, people, I think this might help a great deal?

Would anyone be up for a group read out loud?

Here's how it would work. We would all sign into Skype or I could set up a free conference which I feel more secure with.

This is probably only a good idea if we have enough people with some experience reading aloud -- but I'd love to try it. Or parts of it. I'd be willing to take the lion's share of the reading if we aren't overflowing with volunteers -- but it would be nice to have women reading what are clearly women's parts.

[Bill]

Thanks Megan but I know that. I don't recommend any of the readings I've heard -- particularly if Eliot is reading because I don't think he can read a poem to save his life. What I'd like to create doesn't exist -- which is is why I want to create it.

[Traveller]

I was hoping no one would hate me for thinking TS Eliot does indeed read horribly. :P I have no idea why people used to think poetry has to be read in that sing-song tone.

I think the women read quite well though; - and I really like the sound of the younger woman.

Thanks for linking, Megan - it's pretty interesting to hear Tom's own voice speaking from so long ago.

[Bill]

Megan,

It's just my opinion. I think many poets are terrible readers of their work. Eliot drones on and on with little inflection and excessive solemnity. It makes me want to strike him. :-)

Traveller -- glad you agree. I also like the the younger woman.

I just am encouraging people to read out loud themselves as opposed to listening to others because that is often more revelatory, figuring out to read a line, that listening to someone else.

There are a lot of voices in this poem, and I think it is best read by the different voices.

[Laurel]

I enjoyed this reading. The hollowness of Eliot's tone suggested to me the emptiness of the land.

[Bill]

Really? What can I say. Degustibus non est, etc. I found pleasure, meaning and language drowned out by the sonorities. :-)

But mostly I want to get people reading out loud rather than listening to others and to get us reading together.

[[deleted user]]

I as well enjoyed Eliot's reading; I've heard Burial of the Dead, and as Laurele stated, it very much depicted the empty and hopeless wasteland that Eliot( or at least I conjecture) wished to achieve. I am eagerly awaiting the discussion of the Wasteland! I've read it once and will surly enjoy reading such a poem again!

[Laurel]

Bill wrote: "Really? What can I say. Degustibus non est, etc. I found please, meaning and language drowned out by the sonorities. :-)

But mostly I want to get people reading out loud rather than listening to..."

I'm eager to hear your reading, Bill.

[Jim]

I'm really curious to hear the reading if you can make it happen. Be sure to record it!

What would really be awesome, Bill, is if sometime in the future you can enlist the help of a few NY actors to record a reading with you, then post it on Youtube.

[Traveller]

That sounds like a good idea! I would say this poem would benefit from being "acted" out almost like a play - similar to how the young woman was reading in the Eliot recording.

[Barbara]

After all the questions I've posted here about the best edition of The Waste Land for the Nook, and all of the incerdible information from Jim, Bill, Whitney, Liz M., and many others in the group, I've decided that I am most likely going to purchase the Norton edition originally recommended by Bill.

I just read the post on "Clues for Reading The Waste Land" and it seems this is the best way to do it.

SO, I just looked it up on the Barnes & Noble site, and this is the edition I found (in a printed version, not an e-version) --

The Waste Land -- A Norton Critical Edition by T.S. Eliot -- Werner Sollors (Editor) -- Format: Textbook Paperback. It's around $15.00.

I'd like to purchase it this week, so Bill or Jim, would you please confirm that this is the exact edition you were referring to??

I haven't read a printed version of a book since I broke my wrist in November, but my wrist is healing and is getting stronger, so I'm going to give this a try.

THANKS!!!
Barbara

[Jim]

Barbara wrote: "The Waste Land -- A Norton Critical Edition by T.S. Eliot -- Werner Sollors (Editor) -- Format: Textbook Paperback. It's around $15.00..."

The edition I have is edited by Michael North, copyright 2001, ISBN 9780393974997

The Waste Land

Norton link:

http://books.wwnorton.com/books/detai...

Here's an Amazon link:

http://www.amazon.com/Waste-Land-Nort...

I'm guessing Bill has this edition too?

[Jim]

PS. For some reason, B&N lists Sollors name ahead of North. It's the same book....

[Bill]

It's the same book, just to be doubly sure I checked the ISBN numbers, they're identical.

That is the correct edition.

[Barbara]

Thank you, Jim & Bill!!! I'm on my way to the world of The Waste Land!! :-)

[Barbara]

A few years ago I rented the movie "Tom and Viv" and I thought it was excellent. It's about T.S. Eliot and the relationship with his wife, Viv. Since this is the thread for questions, resources, and general banter, I thought this would be a good place to mention the movie.

If there has already been a discussion in this thread, I apologize. I've been juggling a few freelance projects and have not been able to get to Goodreads on a regular basis, so I've fallen a bit behind on some posts and comments.

Has anyone seen "Tom and Viv"??? I may want to rent it again right before starting The Waste Land, just to have a better idea of Eliot's personality.

If any of you are familiar with this film, I'm wondering if you know how much of the movie is "real" or factual, and how much is "made up" or fiction??

[Traveller]

Barbara wrote: "A few years ago I rented the movie "Tom and Viv" and I thought it was excellent. It's about T.S. Eliot and the relationship with his wife, Viv. Since this is the thread for questions, resources, an..."

Thanks for telling us about! I did not know about the film, and am certainly going to try and get hold of it. :)

[Traveller]

I found the film cheap online and ordered it. Sadly it's going to take almost 3 weeks before I get it...

[Barbara]

Hi Traveller,
I believe I got it on Netflix. If you have a Netflix account you could get the film right away!

Would you please tell me where you found it online? I don't have a Netflix account, and I would love to watch the film again. I thought it was a very interesting movie, so I would be happy to buy it (as opposed to renting it.)

Once you get the movie, I would love to know your thoughts on it.

[Bill]

The movie is available from Amazon for $5.97.

The Amazon ASIN number is B005GRF37M

You can also get the play on which it is based, but the play is more expensive. I have read the play.

The author has a particular point of view PRO-VIV and, it may or may not be fair. It's very easy to believe it is fair -- which is why you should be careful in believing it. :-)

Eliot did not want a biography written. He burned letters, I believe. His second wife respected his wishes -- so there is less about him known than about many other people.

[Traveller]

Thanks Bill.

@ Barbara: Hm, I wonder if I can wangle a plan with a friend of mine who has Netflix, to see the movie sooner. Assuming you order the Amazon copy, when will your copy arrive?

[Bill]

Incidentally, I don't know that "Tom and Viv" is hugely helpful with the "The Waste Land".

[Traveller]

Bill wrote: "Incidentally, I don't know that "Tom and Viv" is hugely helpful with the "The Waste Land"."

Well, I have been curious about Eliot's first wife anyway. But ok, I see your point, no need to really rush about seeing the movie, I suppose.

[Whitney]

Traveller wrote: "Bill wrote: "Incidentally, I don't know that "Tom and Viv" is hugely helpful with the "The Waste Land"."

Well, I have been curious about Eliot's first wife anyway. But ok, I see your point, no ne..."

There is a short slightly in-jokey scene where Tom and Viv read a short bit of 'The Waste Land' to his in-laws under its original title. Dafoe does a spot-on Eliot.

[Barbara]

Hi Traveller, Whitney, & Bill,

Bill -- Thank you for the Amazon info. I used to be a "Netflix Addict" but I closed my account when I was out of work. I think Netflix is great, & I hope to re-open my account. I saw the film a few years ago so I don't remember all the details, but I do agree that that the viewer's sympathy would be with Viv.

Traveller -- Amazon is usually pretty quick, but I haven't looked to see how quickly I could get the copy. Do DVD rental stores still exist?? I live in Manhattan, but I haven't been to a rental place in a long time. I think the internet put most, or all, dvd rental stores out of business!!!

Whitney -- I vaguely remember that scene you mentioned. Did you like the movie?? Do you agree with Bill that it's slanted toward Viv's side??

Traveller -- I agree with Bill about not needing to see the movie before we read the poem. Actually, if you get the film once we've already started discussing the poem, I think it would just enhance the overall experience of reading and discussing the poem. (That's just my opinion.)

[Traveller]

Barbara wrote: "Hi Traveller, Whitney, & Bill,

Bill -- Thank you for the Amazon info. I used to be a "Netflix Addict" but I closed my account when I was out of work. I think Netflix is great, & I hope to re-open ..."

Not sure about Manhattan itself, but there are still brick-and-mortar rental stores in New York. (I think) you can have a look here http://directory.newsday.com/new-york... and here http://www.citidex.com/992.htm

..so I'll just wait until whenever the movie I ordered arrives , and we could perhaps have a chat about it in this thread then. :)

[Bill]

Barbara,

They used to be everywhere, now they are much harder to find.

I think it's Netflix and the cost per square foot of rental space in NYC. Just not enough business to support it.

[Whitney]

Barbara wrote: "Did you like the movie?? Do you agree with Bill that it's slanted toward Viv's side?? "

It was definitely more sympathetic towards Viv, but I don't think it lacked sympathy for Eliot as a very young man who leaped into something that he wasn't really aware of or equipped to deal with. I didn't read or see the play, so my memories are of the movie only.

*****Spoiler warning for the very sensitive ****

I'm not sure how the film couldn't be sympathetic towards someone who was mentally and physically ill and got almost no support from her family (especially after her mother died), no help, and was essentially abandoned in a facility for the last years of her life.

I think there is a discussion to be had about the culture of the time and how poorly people like Vivienne were dealt with, but it has little to do with The Waste Land per se. (Although a discussion of the effect of the artist's personal life on their work would dovetail nicely with the 'Scylla and Charybdis' chapter currently being read in the Ulysses group :-) .

[Traveller]

...but surely this relationship must have had a deep effect on Eliot, and therefore also on his poetry?

[Lily]

Traveller wrote: "...but surely this relationship must have had a deep effect on Eliot, and therefore also on his poetry?"

Don't forget the view that any writing has an existence independent of its creator, i.e., knowing the author is not necessarily critical to reading, studying, enjoying, comprehending literature, any more than knowing the artist's life is integral to the aesthetic experience of viewing a painting. (E.g., perhaps thank goodness, at some level, we can only conjecture about Homer.)

[Traveller]

Lily wrote: "Don't forget the view that any writing has an existence independent of its creator, i.e., knowing the author is not necessarily critical to reading, studying, enjoying, comprehending literature, any more than knowing the artist's life is integral to the aesthetic experience of viewing a painting. (E.g., perhaps thank goodness, at some level, we can only conjecture about Homer.) "

Yes, Eliot himself belonged to the New Criticism school of thought, that represents an approach to literary studies that focuses on the literary text itself as the object of study, in opposition to previous streams of thought that held that literature should be seen as a social artifact that expresses aspects of the author or the society in which it was written.

It tends to dismiss author's intention, or historical and cultural contexts, but focuses instead on the text and the text alone, with reference to literary devices that have been applied within that text, and requires a close reading of the text itself and the literary devices applied within it.

Well, if that was how Eliot wanted us to read it, he should perhaps have made less allusions, hm? ;)

Seriously, though, I myself prefer a multidimensional approach, since for me the text cannot be divorced from it's source, or, on the other hand, from the subjectivity which each reader's experience brings with it.

I am going to see different things in a text (especially an emotionally loaded text such as poem) than you are. So, to me a text is a mixture of 1)author's intent, and as 2)an object on its own with its own intrinsic value, and 3)also as a subjective experience for each individual where the individual's personal experience of the text lends additional value to it. (As in where authors say: "My goodness, did you read all that into what I wrote? I never even realized That I'd put all of that in there.")

That the author didn't intentionally put it here, (in my view) doesn't make the reader's experience of it any less valid. Yet it is also helpful to know what the author did intend, and can, in my view add an additional dimension to the text.

I'm very much into archetypes, so for me the Archetypal/Myth Criticism school of thought holds a lot of value.

To my way of thinking, the New Critics are partly right about not considering authorial intent alone, in that writers are often going to include tropes and archetypes without actually intentionally meaning to, sometimes they do it consciously, but at other times also subconsciously, because these are to some extent part of the human psyche and to some extent part of our culture, but also to an extent part of the subconscious of all humanity.

But New Critics tend to focus on literary devices more than they do on the psychological and archetypal content and subtext of the text, whereas I love to speculate about what led up to the author putting down in text what he/she did, and why.

[Bill]

Traveller,

The New Critics don't really care how you experience the poem. But the New Critics would argue that any case for what the poem means has to be supported by reference to the text.

The focus was on the picture of the world presented in the poem itself -- and how the language used contributes to the vision.

Knowing the author's "intent" might lead you to experience the text more fully and, in fact, lead you to perceive how the language functions, but if you're going to make a case for an interpretation, it has to come from the poem itself. Ultimately, the intent is only interesting if the intent is realized in the text. The poem might be entirely different from when the poet intended. If it is because of personal psychology, you need to show it in text.

Whatever it is, though, must be in the text.

The notion that one's personal responses don't come into play when reading a poem is ridiculous. It's a poem. It's supposed to make you feel things. But if you're going to interpret it, you need to support it with the text.

One's personal response might be so idiosyncratic as to be worthless to another person. For example, if you felt "The Waste Land" was all about the pleasures one feels upon waking up to a beautiful day or an unrelieved paean to sexual delight, I'd respect that were your opinion and recommend a therapist.

There are a lot contemporary schools of criticism that come under the general rubric of "theory" -- the new historicist, Marxist, psychoanalytic, post-colonial -- and of course "deconstruction" -- whatever that is exactly. They also take speculative constructs -- you know, theories -- as facts through to fit in a poem.

I don't know the goal is always to enlighten the poem rather than to use the poem -- or whatever -- as a means to illustrate the theory. That seems a poor use of literature.

And is only interesting to those who share the theory.

They look at the work in light of certain theoretical ideas. Jung was popular in the 1960s, during the height of the New Criticism. I don't think so much anymore. I remember a line in Kenneth Koch's poem "Fresh Air" talking about academic poets in universities with their eyes on "the myth, the missus and the mid-terms."

The difficulty is that you need to believe in or have an interest in the theoretical ideas which serve as the glass through which you look at the books.

My problem with "theory" as a whole is that my interest in literature is ultimately is in (largely) autonomous works of art. If looking at something through a theoretical prism ultimately enriches that, great. If the goal of say, the new historicism, is intellectual history -- that I want it in my intellectual history class.

______

My own approach with "The Waste Land" here is not trying to determine what "The Waste Land" ultimately means so much as finding ways pass the lions of allusion and obscurity which bar the gates.

[Traveller]

Bill wrote: "Close.

The New Critics don't really care how you experience the poem. But the New Critics would argue that any argument for what the poem means has to be supported by reference to the text.

Kn..."

All this is true. ..and in some sense, knowing about all the different theories can actually rather spoil literary experience for you as a reader; since that is actually all more to do with critical and theoretical aspects of texts rather than simple enjoyment at a basic level. (Though many professors of literature unfortunately disagree with that sentiment - they feel that you need a PhD in lit. theory to ENJOY literature, but my personal view is that you only need Theory PhD's to criticize lit in scholarly circles).

On a certain level, complying with the NC's approach, actually in a strange way defies the idea behind referring to the text alone, because if you looked at the text alone, you wouldn't need literary theory, but if you hadn't studied literary theory, you wouldn't know of the New Critic's approach and that Eliot was one, so there's a bit of circular reasoning going on there. :P

What I am saying, though, is that although I agree with Bill and Lily (and I think Jim also espouses their POV) about that there is a lot of value in referring to the text itself and only the text; for me this is true only for a first reading.

After that, (and often even before completely finishing a first reading, if it is surreal or absurdist or otherwise confusing material) I want answers, I want to understand, I want to know where the person who wrote this text is coming from, and what influenced him or her when writing that text.

We are all different, and we all have our different ideas on how to enjoy the literature we read, and for me, doing background investigation using supporting texts, and looking for author influences and other reader opinions is part of how I enjoy and appreciate my literature.

After all, if one were to refer to the text and the text alone, joining a group in order to discuss that text, already defies that very object. :)

So I like to mix in a bit of all the lit theory approaches, but without having to feel I'm adhering to any kind of lit. theory, because that kind of spoils the whole experience for me.

I don't want to be constricted to approaching literature in the way that this bunch of theorists or that bunch of theorists are trying to tell me to do it.

Wanting to research the background to a text, is a thing that came to intuitively and naturally and was my approach to literature before I even knew that such a thing as literary theory existed.

Having had to study a bunch of meta theories regarding the criticism of literature, has enabled me to appreciate the sentiments of each theory, but none of them have claimed me as an acolyte. So.. I guess I'm incurable. Sorry.

The irony of surrealism, expressionism, postmodernism, etc. is that people (laymen) are so steeped in the "old" conventions of form and structure, that they actually have to know 'something' about - at least the very basics about art music or literary theory to be able to "appreciate" the lack of form, or the deconstruction of the old forms and structures. It's one of those cosmic ironies.

[Bill]

Traveller,

And having said that, look for Vivienne Eliot in first parts of "The Game of Chess" up until Lil and her "friend" in the pub. I'm not sure "Tom and Viv" will give you Vivienne as much as other writings. :-)

[Whitney]

Traveller wrote: "The irony of surrealism, expressionism, postmodernism, etc. is that people (laymen) are so steeped in the "old" conventions of formalism, that they actually have to know 'something' about - at least the very basics about art music or literary theory to be able to "appreciate" the lack of form, or the deconstruction of the old forms. It's one of those cosmic ironies. ..."

Asking as one of those literary laypeople, how is this ironic? (And I ask in an inquiring, not a contentious way). Didn't we have to learn to appreciate the formalistic conventions as well? I know that at some point all those things such as simile, metaphor, allusion etc. had to be explained to me. Just because this is part of most 'basic' educations, does that make it different from having to learn a bit more to appreciate literary forms that approach things a bit differently?

Sorry if this seems overly simplistic, like I said I'm not very familiar with literary theories. I recall that it was a deadly serious analysis of a Donald Duck comic that turned me off the literary theory road at a young age.

[Bill]

Traveller wrote, All this is true. ..and in some sense, knowing about all the different theories can actually rather spoil literary experience for you as a reader; since that is actually all more to do with critical and theoretical aspects of texts rather than simple enjoyment at a basic level.

First, I have no idea how understanding literary theory can "spoil" literary experience. Theory is an option, another way to look at a work, to think about.

Secondly, no one goes to school to understand a work at its most basic level. One goes to school to learn how to think about literature in more sophisticated ways.

Traveller wrote I want answers, I want to understand, I want to know where the person who wrote this text is coming from, and what influenced him or her when writing that text.

Well, the problem is answer to what? What if where the person is "coming from" is absolutely irrelevant to the text in front of you?

What if there are no answers? Having been working on this poem now for some time, I think the one thing you are unlikely to come away with is definitive answers about much.

You want to understand how each detail of "The Waste Land" forms into a coherent whole? I don't think you'll ever answer that. I don't think it's answerable. Whether it even does is highly controversial. You can assess the arguments.

You won't find them in Eliot's biography. Eliot is the last person to explain them and in the end denied it was anything but "rhythmical grousing."

And the author's intent is ONLY possibly relevant if it is expressed in the text in front of you -- if it isn't, if where the author's coming from is not in the work -- then it doesn't matter all. How could it possibly?

Sometimes biography may lead you to interpret a text differently, the biography may lead you to the text. But if you're making an argument for interpretation, you have to support with the text, not the biography that led you to it.

Looking at it another way, the author's stated intent -- if there is one - is only another interpretation, which needs to be supported by the text. It's not privileged. How could it be? That only makes sense if your presume the author was successful.

These rules don't have anything to do with your experience of a work. They have to do with how you make your case for an interpretation. People seem to misunderstand this.

Traveller wrote, "On a certain level, complying with the NC's approach, actually in a strange way defies the idea behind referring to the text alone, because if you looked at the text alone, you wouldn't need literary theory,"

No, it's not. New Criticism predates "theory" -- although any approach is certainly "a" theory. The New Criticism obviously doesn't suggest you shouldn't read criticism, it says that an argument for an interpretation must be supported by the text. It doesn't say you can't read criticism which shows you how the text works.

It's about ground rules for arguments for interpretation.

[Bill]

Traveller wrote, "The irony of surrealism, expressionism, postmodernism, etc. is that people (laymen) are so steeped in the "old" conventions of formalism, that they actually have to know 'something' about - at least the very basics about art music or literary theory to be able to "appreciate" the lack of form, or the deconstruction of the old forms. It's one of those cosmic ironies."

No they don't. People were used to conventional narratives and conventional forms. They still are. They're used to conventional story-telling with beginnings middles and ends. No one needs instruction in these forms.

So I don't see the irony.

[Laurel]

That's a good point, Bill. Even a child expects a beginning, middle, and end. (Of course, epics begin in the middle.)

[Whitney]

Bill wrote: "No they don't. People were used to conventional narratives and conventional forms. They still are. They're used to conventional story-telling with beginnings middles and ends. No one needs instruction in these forms...."

I understood Traveller's statement to mean that because people WERE used to conventional narrative, they needed to understand some theory to appreciate forms that broke that convention. But I still don't see where the irony comes in.

[Barbara]

Bill wrote: "Also, people, I think this might help a great deal?

Would anyone be up for a group read out loud?

Here's how it would work. We would all sign into Skype or I could set up a free conference which ..."

I hope this post does not interrupt the current conversation between Bill, Traveller, and Whitney (because it's a fascinating conversation and I'd like to put my two cents in, but I need to wait until this horrible headache goes away so I can think clearly enough.)

But I was just going through some prior posts I had missed, and I saw Bill's post about a skype or conference call so that we can read the poem aloud in different voices.

Great idea, Bill. I have a background in theater as well, and I completely agree with the importance of reading poetry aloud. Plays and poems are great to read, and I can read all of Shakespeare's tragedies a million times, but in addition to seeing the performances it is SO GREAT to read a soliloquy aloud a few times, or to take turns reading aloud with other people. One evening years ago, while just hanging around in my living room reading King Lear (to myself) I asked my husband (who also has been involved in theater, but he never really enjoyed Shakespeare) to read Edmund's soliloquy about being "base" and a "bastard" out loud, and with very little background on the play itself, he did a cold reading of it and it was PERFECT!!! (Needless to say, he started enjoying Shakespeare more after this experience.)

But I digress. Back to Bill's suggestion, I think it's a great idea. I don't know if I can do a skype meeting, but a conference call would be great. I would gladly volunteer to read one of the parts, but I really have been suffering from some terrible headache issues (I was not trying to be funny at the beginning of this post about "not being able to participate in the posts due to a headache" -- I really have been having daily headaches and have been in the process of going through some tests to find out what's wrong.)

SO, I don't feel comfortable committing myself to anything at this point, because from one day to the next I have no idea how badly I will feel, BUT, if I'm feeling well enough I would LOVE to be one of the readers (if I'm not feeling well, I'd love to hear the reading.) Also, I do have to say that although I do have a theater background, I find that when I try to read a poem aloud I am TERRIBLE at it!!! So this could be a very educational experience.

Again -- I apologize for posting this in the middle of Bill and Traveller's interesting dialogue. I hope you will continue!!!!

[Bill]

No apologies needed, Barbara, I'm glad you brought it up. By the way, if your husband can put across the "Now, gods, stand up for bastards" speech in a cold reading he's got a career because years and years ago, when I was in classical theater, I think that was the most common audition piece for men.

I'd love to have you as a reader -- would you know possibly closer to the date? I'm thinking the evening of Thursday March 2 7:30 - 9:30 and/or Sunday around 12:00 Noon.

I'm going to try to send an email out asking for volunteers. I'll probably go the conference call route so as not have people worry about Skype.

My goal is to have three women and two men to volunteer read. Ideally, these are people who can read verse naturally -- like they were reading anything else -- and not intone or declaim it. And, for the parts that are like conversation, make it conversational. This is particularly important for the women who have the parts the feel the most like dialogue.

As I said, originally, I can read the poem out loud myself, but it would be nice not to do it alone.

Then we'd talk about it for a while.

[Barbara]

Hi Bill. I would LOVE to chat with you about classical theater, and theater in general. I'm so interested in hearing about the plays you've done, and some of your favorite parts. I'll send you a private message about this. Maybe we've studied at some of the same places, or with the same teachers!! (I left the "theater world" in the late 90's because I actually also liked my "day job" and I just couldn't juggle both anymore.) But I'll always love reading plays, from Euripides to Ibsen, and in many cases I prefer reading the plays to seeing the actual performances.

SO, back to the conference call for The Waste Land -- Thursday, March 2nd sounds good to me. Unfortunately, I have not been able to commit to anything lately due to the headaches and some other health issues, but if I'm not one of the readers I can't imagine that I wouldn't feel well enough to be a member of the audience and participate in the discussion afterward.

I think it's a great idea to send out an email to the group members, asking for volunteers. There are so many interesting people in this group, and everyone seems to be really looking forward to the discussion of The Waste Land, so I'm guessing there will be many volunteers.

BUT, if you do not get three female volunteers, I will take one of the parts as long as you (or someone else) could be my "understudy." LOL!! Again, I'm just nervous about making commitments because these headaches can be debilitating at times (you have no idea how much work I've missed over the past few weeks), so I've been living a "one day at a time" existence until this situation is taken care of (by finding out what's causing it, and getting the proper treatment and/or medication.)

It would be great to hear the poem. I haven't listened to any of the recordings that have been mentioned in some of the previous posts.