Brain Pain discussion
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The Waste Land
The Waste Land - BP Poetry
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Questions, Resources and General Banter - The Waste Land
The advantage of the Norton edition is that it actually gives you thirty pages of sources and allusions -- not just the references, but some of the relevant language. For example, in the opening lines
April is the cruelest month, breeding
Lilacs out of the dead land, mixing
Memory and Desire, stirring
Dull roots with spring rain.
While the oddity stands on its own, there is in the back of it, the allusion to General Prologue of Chaucer's Canterbury Tale.
Whan that Aprill with his shoures soote
The droghte of March hath perced to the roote,
And bathed every veyne in swich licour
Of which vertu engendred is the flour,
probably the first association of April showers and flowers.
And that's the only allusion I believe in Middle English. :-)
But what I like about Norton is that instead of just sending you there -- it reprints the lines -- and so on.
The second useful source is T. S. Eliot, The Waste Land: A Facsimile and Transcript of the original Draft Including The Annotations of Ezra Pound Edited and with an Introduction by Valerie Eliot (who is Eliot's second wife whom he married years later).
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_nos...
If you have an iPad, be sure to check out an amazing app from Touch Press. Just search for "The Waste Land."
I've heard excellent things about that app. Unfortunately, no iPad.:-(
http://eliotswasteland.tripod.com/This may be a good page for understanding bits and pieces of the poem. Also the many cultural allusions.
Corina wrote: "http://eliotswasteland.tripod.com/This may be a good page for understanding bits and pieces of the poem. Also the many cultural allusions."
Good source. Thank you, Corina.
Laurele,Great idea! I'll look for The Waste Land app. I've already ordered the Norton edition, which I'll use, but maybe the app would be a great supplement.
I've just bought an iPad because I'm writing learn-to-read lessons that are touch-screen interactive. I teach reading privately and was asked to join an amazing team of artists and technology people to develop an app of phonics-based lessons that can help kids ages 4-7 learn to read or read better. Our first set of lessons will be out in a couple of weeks. Exciting!
And you have sparked my imagination to find ways I can use my iPad for my own reading and writing recreation. Thank you!
Corina wrote: "http://eliotswasteland.tripod.com/This may be a good page for understanding bits and pieces of the poem. Also the many cultural allusions."
This is a wonderful resource! I spent a few minutes with it today and could have spent much more time. Thank you.
Jeanne, I worked for years on just such phonics-based reading lessons, but of course with no iPad. I think tablets can be a great asset to help children break the code and enjoy themselves while doing so. Godspeed!Laurel
Jeanne wrote: "Laurele,
Great idea! I'll look for The Waste Land app. I've already ordered the Norton edition, which I'll use, but maybe the app would be a great supplement.
I've just bought an iPad becau..."
Hi Laurele,Then you know how important it is for kids to understand how reading and spelling really work. I've been tutoring children in my home for twenty-seven years. I got a new student last month, a six-year-old boy, who had only been taught sight words at school. He tried to find a pattern in all this himself and had decided that any word beginning with CA has to be "cat". So we have been working on basic phonics and now he's progressing very quickly.
I'm excited about the app I've been working on since October. We've tested it and kids love it! It's called Reading Raven and should be on the market about two weeks from now.
I would LOVE to read The Waste Land with this group!! I recently got the Nook Kwhich is the only e-reader I have) but i find that I prefer reading poetry and plays in the actual printed version. Under normal circumstances, I would get the Norton Critical Edition, recommended by Jim, but I've recently broken my wrist (a BAD break, I might add), which is the reason I got the Nook in the first place.It may be a few months before I have any use of my left hand, so I'll be using the Nook for a while (unless I read a very thin book -- maybe 200 pages or less, which I could hold with one hand.)
SO, can anyone recommend a great edition (similar to the Norton edition -- with good notes, etc.,) that's available on the Nook???
Thanks!!!!
Sorry -- in the second line in my post (above), I wrote -- Kwhich -- I meant to write (which....Typing with one hand has also been a lot of fun. ;-)
Mod
I looked at the B&N page and see two annotated editions, one for $28.00 and one for $2.99
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/s/the-w...
I'm guessing the $28 version has more material. You should send a message to Bill. He may be able to tell you if the Lawrence Rainey version is worth the extra money.
BTW, can the Nook read Kindle books? If so, there are more options you can look at on Amazon.
Thanks, Jim!! The Nook is still pretty new for me, so there are still a lot of things I need to figure out. I don't know if I can get Kindle books on my Nook, but thank you for suggesting this. I'm definitely going to look into it. (I'm going to go into a Barnes & Noble and get someone in the "Nook Section" to help me out.) There MUST be a way of getting books from Kindle and other sources. Right now, Gravity's Rainbow isn't even available on my Nook, and that is one book that should be an essential on an e-reader!!!! But I can get Infinite Jest, so when we read it here I won't have to carry around a one thousand page book!!!Thanks again, Jim!!! I'm really looking forward to reading The Waste Land with you and the group!!! What an AMAZING choice!!!
There is a free program called "Calibre" which converts different formats into each other, but it doesn't work on all of the Kindle books due to Amazon's use of DRM encoding. I looked for Gravity's Rainbow, there is an epub version (which works on the nook) out there, but I could only find it in pirated form.
Thank you, Whitney!!! I will look into Calibre.I have to say that I've been a little disappointed with the Nook. I was told theu had a better selection than the Kindle, but I've been surprised and disappointed about some books the Nook doesn't have -- Gravity's Rainbow and One Hundred Years of Solitude being two of them. I also couldn't find Bolano's Savage Detectives. These are just a few that come to mind, in terms of books not available on the Nook. I did, however, find an excellent edition of Anna Karenina for $3.95.
The good news is that we're not reading Gravity's Rainbow in this group until June, and I hope to upgrade to a much better e-reader by then!!!
SORRY!!! I didn't mean to go "off topic" about e-readers in this thread!!!
Thanks again, Whitney!!!
Other ebook sources - check Manybooks.net and Project Guttenberg (http://www.gutenberg.org/) for copyright expired books. In case you're looking for Ulysses, the pre 1923 version that Guttenberg has is the best one I've found as an ebook. There are copies for sale that are advertised as having chapter formatting, but they don't and/or are missing text. Your library probably also has a fine selection of ebooks. I'm also sending you a private message about the conversion thing.
Barbara wrote: "I've been surprised and disappointed about some books the Nook doesn't have -- Gravity's Rainbow and One Hundred Years of Solitude being two of them. I also couldn't find Bolano's Savage Detectives. ...."As far as I can tell, these books are not available for the Kindle or as an ebook at all. Powells used to have a very expensive nook (but not kindle) version of Savage Detectives.
Again, I cannot recommend inkmesh.com , an ebook search engine, enough for locating ebooks on free sites as well as for purchase (includes results from Project Gutenberg, Barnes&Noble, Amazon, Sony, Apple, Lulu, Feedbooks, Manybooks, Powells, Kobo, and so on.)
Barbara,Unfortunately, I don't think anything compares to the Norton Edition -- it was my recommendation originally -- because they reprint a decent amount of the material to which Eliot alludes. So if you can manage the Norton on a flat surface turning pages with one hand, I'd do it.
It's also the first 66 pages that are the most relevant so if you can have someone split the book for you at, say, page, 100, you'd have two editions, each under 200 pages. That's my recommendation. Otherwise the book itself is 288 pages.
I have the Rainey edition for the Kindle which is $9.99 -- the Kindle version of the 2nd edition -- I don't know why it's more than double that for the Nook. I downloaded a sample and the *small sample I read* was identical.
The Rainey is better than some -- but I still prefer the Norton. You can download the Kindle for PC (or Mac) software, which is free, and simply read it on your computer (this is a 17 page poem, give or take, and footnotts. It's all readable on the computer.)
You only need one hand for the mouse -- I'm hoping you're right-handed.
I own both a Simple Touch Nook and a Kindle Fire -- and I'm one of five managers of a very large group (36,000+) on eBoooks on LinkedIn, I'm familiar with eReaders.
I'm not going to go into much detail here, but here goes. Kindle uses their own proprietary standard for eBook conversion. Barnes & Noble, along with most of the rest of the world, uses the ePub standard. However, Amazon is still responsible for 50%+ sales of books in the US (the last time I checked, these stats are not easy to come by.) For that reason they're very much the 800 lb. gorilla.
Beyond that, there is the VERY BIG issue of DRM (digital rights management) which prevents you from copying the book and distributing it as well transferring it into another format.
There is no way legal way to break DRM, dedicated hackers can do it just like they can root phones. But you can't do it legally.
The notion that you can get Kindle books for the Nook is just inaccurate. I doubt they sell anything at all without DRM -- but it won't be much. There may be some. Calibre is a program to help you convert files that are unprotected, as Whitney noted. BUT I don't know you'll find anything on Amazon that isn't DRM protected.
You can get material from some other sources and read on your Nook if it's ePub and the Nook software can read their DRM. For example, You can read SONY books on the Nook (or at least you used to be able to.) You can read ePub without DRM -- but most of what you'd really want to read (I'm guessing) Barnes & Noble will already have.
UNDERSTAND, neither Amazon nor Barnes & Noble has ANY interest in interchangeability at this point. Amazon in particular wants you to buy from them, them only, and create a closed loop, ideally buy the Kindle Fire or the next version of it (possibly 8.9", similar to the iPad)and also use it to watch TV and Video.
And until the marketplace forces them to use a different strategy, that's what they're going with.
The iPad would be ideal if you want to read from both because you simply would download both proprietary pieces of software -- but then the iPad costs a lot more.
Bill wrote: "Barbara,Unfortunately, I don't think anything compares to the Norton Edition because they reprint a decent amount of the material to which Eliot alludes. So if you can manage the Norton on a flat..."
Welcome back, Bill. Fortunately, the Norton Edition is slim.
I have one each of the first three Kindles, and I also read nook books on my iPad--mostly free ones. I am just now having my house renovated, and I am SO glad I haven't bought too many new dead tree books in the last few years.
Thanks, Laurele. I just got back a few hours ago and I won't be in that much evidence until the middle of next week, but it's good to welcomed. :-)
Bill wrote: "Thanks, Laurele. I just got back a few hours ago and I won't be in that much evidence until the middle of next week, but it's good to welcomed. :-)"We'll expect a full report on Moby Dick Land.
Ha! Arrived the night before the worst snow storm of the winter. Even the whaling museum was shut down. Fortunately, there was a restaurant across the street which was open. The boats in the harbor looked covered with snow and I got to see the whaling museum and the outside of the church where the character based on Father Mapple preached. (It's only open in summer.)
Bill wrote: "Ha! Arrived the night before the worst snow storm of the winter. Even the whaling museum was shut down. Fortunately, there was a restaurant across the street which was open. The boats in the harbor..."Considering they started out on Christmas Day, that must have been quite a voyage. Moby Dick has become one of the books I have to read every year.
Bill wrote: "....I have the Rainey edition for the Kindle which is $9.99 -- the Kindle version of the 2nd edition -- I don't know why it's more than double that for the Nook. I downloaded a sample and the *small sample I read* was identical. ...."Bill, do you possibly have the Kindle edition's ISBN # close at hand?
What an absolutely remarkable, intelligent, and good-natured group of people in this "Brain Pain" group!! (I LOVE the name, by the way.)Thank you SO MUCH to all of you who have offered such great suggestions and advice!!!
I will be on my laptop much later today (right now I'm using my Smart Phone, which is NOT very smart) but on my laptop I will be able to look into all of the suggestions you have each offered.
Thank you -- all of you, SO MUCH!!!
I'm so happy to be part of this fantastic group. Now I just have to hope I can keep up the reading pace here, as I'm not a very fast reader!!!
Mod
I'm sure you'll do fine! If you look at The Waste Land schedule, you'll see that Bill has scheduled a discussion of the poem as a whole that begins on 3/5/12. Each week after that, is a discussion of the different parts of the poem, so I think you'll have plenty of time to read along. And if you ever fall behind a bit, don't worry about it. Join in when you're ready...
Thanks, Jim! I'm looking forward to it!!
TravellerThis is the ISBN # for the Norton The Waste Land, which I recommend 978-0393974997
I'm not sure that the Rainey edition for Kindle has an ISBN number. Amazon does not require Kindle books to have an ISBN number. It's ASIN: B00267T4D4 . This is an Amazon product number for items without ISBN's -- for books the ISBN is the ASIN. (Hair dryers, for example, could only have an ASIN.)
The ISBN of the PAPERBACK Edition is 978-0300119947 but that's NOT the ISBN of the Kindle edition because EVERY format must have a separate ISBN (the actual point of ISBN's in the first place.)
Amazon does not REQUIRE Kindle editions to have an ISBN.
Bill wrote: "TravellerThis is the ISBN # for the Norton The Waste Land, which I recommend 978-0393974997
I'm not sure that the Rainey edition for Kindle has an ISBN number. Amazon does not require Kindle b..."
Thanks Bill. I have a Kindle, so I thought it would be useful to get the Kindle version. (My current paperback edition is sadly an unannotated one.)
I will try to get hold of the Norton as well, but downloading a Kindle version is so much easier, so thanks for the number. (Well I've noticed that Kindle books also have numbers, and a few of my Kindle volumes that I've added here to GR, did have a special kind of e-book ISBN number. Anyway, the ASIN number you gave works, I've found the book, thanks! )
Yes, it's easier, but the Norton has more material. But both are better than either one. :-)Amazon does not REQUIRE an ISBN number for digital books. That doesn't prevent the PUBLISHER from getting one, if the publisher wants one. Some may therefore have them. Amazon will assign an ASIN number if there is no ISBN -- this functions as the SKU for them internally.
US publishers buy ISBN's from R. R. Bowker -- and they're usefully in tracking sales of each individual edition. Bookscan does not yet, so far as I know, track eBook sales. (Bookscan is the Nielsen product that measures book sales -- not inexpensive.) ISBNs are cheap in bulk, expensive individually.
So just in case you're curious, that's what's going on there.
In general, also, any annotated edition should have more than Eliot's annotations which are not particularly helpful.
Thanks for the explanation on the ISBN's, Bill. Hmm, I've just read a review or two on the Rainey. Some are very complimentary and some are less so.
Like you say, I suppose it would be better to have both. The Waste Land is one poem where I feel pretty lost without external input, but even so, I still wonder:".. but WHY did Eliot refer to these people, to so-and-so?" *sigh*
But let me not pre-empt the actual discussion...
Traveller,I find Rainey a little parochial. I find Norton more neutral -- and AGAIN fuller in simply reprinting source material so you can read it for yourself. That's the ONLY reason I'm so high on Norton.
I'm a little confused by the question, ".. but WHY did Eliot refer to these people, to so-and-so?" *sigh*
Do you mean why did Eliot write a poem with so many allusions, why did he put in the footnotes later, etc.?
Bill wrote: "I'm a little confused by the question, ".. but WHY did Eliot refer to these people, to so-and-so?"Well, even though Eliot tells us who he is alluding to in some cases, (such as for instance certain members of Bavarian Royalty) (I'm trying to be vague so as to avoid spoilers), he still doesn't spoonfeed us into making us understand why in the context of the poem, he is alluding to these specific people in the poem.
I mean, if you wrote a poem in which you included an allusion to George Bush or Barack Obama, you'd have a specific reason why you did it, wouldn't you?
If he, for instance, talks of "Marie", since I was only born in the second half of the previous century, I don't have a clue who Marie is, and I have to read his notes to tell me who, but since I don't know anything about her,(even after he told me he is referring to a member of Hapsburg royalty) I cannot for the life of me figure out why he alludes to her, and this requires me to do additional research about her.
If you wrote a poem today in which you spoke of a certain "Barack" most modern readers would assume you were speaking of the Barack that most literate people in the world today would have a good idea of who you were alluding to, and they'd most probably also even have a good idea of why (if read in the context of your poem), you were actually alluding to him.
I guess it was easier for people who lived early in the 20th century, because they would have been more familiar with the people and the milieu that the poem was written in.
Still, I know that some allusions go back as far as Chaucer and classical Greece, so one has to have quite an encyclopedic education, to immediately be able to figure out "why" he decided to talk about this or that person.
As for me, I have to do at least some research of my own, regarding the allusions he makes, even after reading his notes as to WHO he was alluding to, and then I have to sit down and try to figure out; maybe he included this person because of... x, y and z.
Anyway, *wink* since you do have a near encyclopedic knowledge, you are a good leader for the discussion; so let me not pre-empt things, and wait in anticipation for the real discussion.
I hope what I said hasn't been too spoiler-ish, I was just trying to explain what I meant - why Eliot's own notes simply aren't enough for me. :)
Mod
Well, even though Eliot tells us who he is alluding to in some cases, (such as for ..."
Tough poem, isn't it?
As Bill mentioned, Eliot's annotations don't necessarily help the reader very much...
Traveller,GET THE NORTON EDITION!!! It does the research for you. THAT'S why I so strongly recommend it.
"The Waste Land" is very much a poem, however, not a puzzle. I don't know that anyone can go through the poem fragment by fragment and explain what each means or why it was chosen without a lot of guessing -- and they may be wrong.
Elsewhere I offered some clues and I don't know this is the place for it BUT...actually JIM I have an idea -- let me work on a discussion post where people can't respond so we don't begin the discussion before the discussion. The title will be CLUES TO READING THE WASTE LAND where people can go and look if they like.
Obviously, people with no interest in clues don't have to read it. Those who do, can.
I think it is FAR too easy to struggle with this poem and get nowhere and it doesn't help to just bang your head against the wall.
The goal of the read from my point of view is to find out how to appreciate the experience of the poem.
Also, Traveler, if you think I have near encyclopedic knowledge, you'll be sadly disappointed. Wish I did. Don't. What I have is a love of poetry, a certain amount of experience reading it and thinking about it. And I'm familiar with this particular poem -- to some extent.
Mod
Exactly! I did a cold reading a few days ago and sure, there are references I don't know, but it didn't interfere with my enjoyment. Once we do the reading and discussion, the gaps will fill for me and the group and we will OWN this poem, just like the rest of what we read this year. (did that sound too steroidy??)
Bill, good idea! Please write up the Clues and send them to me as a message, then I'll post and lockdown the thread for you.
Ok. I'll rather say no more right now, then, and wait until later.Maybe you're right, Bill. I suppose people who try to "understand" a Mondrian, are missing the point. Is that what you're saying?
In the meantime, I'll go get the Norton. :)
Steroidy? I like that attitude! Let's go get 'em, Jim! *hunkers down in a scrum formation.*
*smiles*
Jim,Great. I'll try to have it to you by Wednesday Feb 1 - Friday February 3, for sure. I was originally shooting for February 5, one month before the read begins, which is Sunday. I'll move that up.
Traveller,
Essentially, yes. To ask what a Mondrian "means" may be beside the point. To ask how it "works" may be an interesting discussion -- but it is only "meaningful" if on some level it "works" for you, if have an aesthetic or emotional response.
But for a lot of people "The Waste Land" is so obscure -- literally, "hidden" -- that they don't see what's of interest.
My goal -- and we'll have to see if I'm successful at all -- is to suggest the power of the attraction of "The Waste Land" -- why so many people at the time (and since) have responded to it. This will also involve suggesting some of the themes in it, of course. But it's not cipher, and some of this is going to be very personal to Eliot. And themes are, I think, of a more general nature. This isn't allegory where x symbolizes y.
One thing I've been thinking about is how powerfully The Great Gatsby was influenced by it (we know Fitzgerald read it and was impressed) and how well Fitzgerald actually understood is anyone's guess.
But I do have a sense of a general way to look at the poem which I think is helpful.
Looking forward, Bill. Pity it's still such a long way off- a whole month! Even longer, actually.I should actually re-read The Great Gatsby, now you mention it. I'd forgotten all the detail, and I might see it with new eyes upon a re-read...(did love it originally).
Well, see you on the 5th!
The Waste Land influenced Gatsby? I originally read them in separate decades and never made a connection. Well, 'thematically connected' makes sense. I wonder what else. Oh, this is going to be so much fun...and a good excuse to read my favorite novel again!
Jeanne,If you're interested we can get it into sometime, maybe after The Waste Land read. Gatsby has numerous sources including the specifics of Fitzgerald's personal life but the two I find most helpful are Conrad's "Heart of Darkness" and Eliot's "The Waste Land." Like Kurtz, Gatsby entered a morally suspect world to get money to marry the girl he loved (Heart of Darkness). The Valley of Ashes is very much like some of "The Waste Land" -- for example, particularly the second part of Section II. It's complicated, etc. but that's some of it. My opinion, anyway.
The action of Gatsby is considerably easier to follow. :-)
Fascinating! I'm looking forward to all of this. Thanks, Bill.
Bill wrote: "Jeanne,If you're interested we can get it into sometime, maybe after The Waste Land read. Gatsby has numerous sources including the specifics of Fitzgerald's personal life but the two I find mo..."
Gatsby is high on my to-read list. I know Heart of Darkness quite well but am always ready to reread Conrad.
I had already written to Jim about the possibility of looking at Gatsby because 1) the parallels are so interesting in such different works and 2) I think is superficially a no-brainer but actually more difficult than it seems.
Mod
Bill, Laurele, Jeanne, Traveller,
Do you want to read Gatsby concurrently with Eliot or after? I can easily open a discussion thread. Let me know what you'd like to do.
I can do it either way, and I'm very much looking forward to this.
I can't do it during. I think it would be better after. For one thing, everyone will be more familiar with The Waste Land, me included. And Gatsby is the opposite of a lot of the books we read here -- it's simple on the surface, but perhaps not so simple undernearth. Also, The Waste Land is a fairly short trek.
I think Bill has some very interesting thoughts and ideas on Gatsby, so I'm happy to wait until he is ready.I'm pretty much due for a re-read, but no rush.
I think it would be great to do it with this group whenever you are ready!
Bill wrote: "I can't do it during. I think it would be better after. For one thing, everyone will be more familiar with The Waste Land, me included. And Gatsby is the opposite of a lot of the books we read here..."Yes, after.
Brain Pain
Books mentioned in this topic
Selected Poems of Ezra Pound (other topics)The Waste Land: A Facsimile and Transcript of the Original Drafts (other topics)
The Waste Land: A Facsimile and Transcript of the Original Drafts (other topics)
T.S. Eliot (other topics)
Olympia: Paris in the Age of Manet (other topics)
More...
This is not a requirement, but suggested because of the generous amount of supporting material for this challenging poem. If you wish to use a different text, no problem!
If you have other suggestions for resources or if you have questions about the poem or T.S. Eliot, feel free to post here.
Also, if you’ve written a review of the book, please post a link to share with the group.