Fantasy Book Club discussion
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TOPIC IN FOCUS - for new authors to discuss why they write fantasy
Clinton wrote: "Is it difficult to write characters that were played by other people?"It's quite challenging to pick up another person's character. I avoid it whenever possible. I've used a mix of characters in my novel, some were developed over a long period of gaming, and some are brand new. But all of them are *my* characters. I don't use other peoples characters (though I sometimes borrow their names, with permission of course :)).
Thomas wrote: "Clinton wrote: "Is it difficult to write characters that were played by other people?"It's quite challenging to pick up another person's character. I avoid it whenever possible. I've used a mix o..."
Of course! LOL.
Thomas wrote: "Clinton wrote: "Thomas wrote: "Cheryl wrote: "Marc wrote: "Simon R. Green writes many of this sort, if you know of any others let me know so I can avoid them."The book I'm referring to is [book:A..."
Yeah, it does drag in places. I tried to overlook the slow bits when reading and enjoy more of Roland's backstory. I'm looking forward to "Wind Through the Keyhole" for the same reason.
Clinton wrote: "Keryl wrote: "Thomas wrote: "Keryl wrote: "Gaming is a good start for imagination building, and for understanding what all needs to be in place for a properly functioning world.The problem is, a ..."
I imagine it would be. But I basically stole character templates, instead of fully formed characters. Making them real people was pretty much all up to me.
So, the seed of my MC was: wizard on the run from attempting to start the apocalypse. Separated from wife and kids. Lonely. Depressed.
Why the apocalypse? No idea. I made all of that up. What happened to the wife and kids? I came up for the answer to that as well. Gaming doesn't usually have a lot of back story. Things just are, and then go forward. So I got to play with all of that, and then put my characters into a plot that was all mine.
Keryl raizses an interesting aspect of writing ; the back story. Every book begins at a certain point - how do you deal with your backstory without a huge (boring) info dump ?I found it easy - I just ignored the whole subject....
Will wrote: "Keryl raizses an interesting aspect of writing ; the back story. Every book begins at a certain point - how do you deal with your backstory without a huge (boring) info dump ?I found it easy -..."
I used a different kind of opening that I have gotten complimented on from many people. I won't outline it here, because it would spoil the surprise, but I put my twist at the beginning instead of the end. This introduced backstory, characters, etc, without the boring infodumps. :)
Will wrote: "Keryl raizses an interesting aspect of writing ; the back story. Every book begins at a certain point - how do you deal with your backstory without a huge (boring) info dump ?I found it easy -..."
I like to have an interest in the characters first. Back story should be handed out slowly and throughout atleast the first half of the book. IMO.
Traci wrote: "Will wrote: "Keryl raizses an interesting aspect of writing ; the back story. Every book begins at a certain point - how do you deal with your backstory without a huge (boring) info dump ?I foun..."
Sure, and I can appreciate that. What I've done with my book doesn't feel like back story until much later. I tried something different than what I was used to reading, and it's worked very well for me. :)
Thomas wrote: "Traci wrote: "Will wrote: "Keryl raizses an interesting aspect of writing ; the back story. Every book begins at a certain point - how do you deal with your backstory without a huge (boring) info ..."Did you not find that you lost the suspense, doing that?
Will wrote: "Did you not find that you lost the suspense, doing that?"Not at all. Like I said, I've had a lot of positive feedback about the way I handled my opening. But you're right, if it's not done properly, it could very easily kill the suspense in the book. The key is, most of the backstory revealed in the first chapter, is important to the story, but isn't actually about the characters in the story, which is how I get around the suspense issue.
Will wrote: "Keryl raizses an interesting aspect of writing ; the back story. Every book begins at a certain point - how do you deal with your backstory without a huge (boring) info dump ?I found it easy -..."
Most of the time you don't need a huge info dump. The back story is there to make the character more interesting, for there to be weight behind the motives and decisions. In my notes all characters have a detailed back story, a lot of the details don't get shared though... only the important stuff and when necessary to move the story along. Same goes for worldbuilding, we all probably have elaborate histories written down but we don't share all the excruciating detail in one massive dump or sometimes at all. I know I don't, but at least the world has a more weighty feel to it and it's there if need be.
Thomas wrote: "Will wrote: "Did you not find that you lost the suspense, doing that?"Not at all. Like I said, I've had a lot of positive feedback about the way I handled my opening. But you're right, if it's no..."
That's kinda what I was saying too.
Seems to me the best writers work the back story seamlessly into the story... like Tolkein, Berg, Wurts, Cherryh.
Tolkein used 2 whole extra books for his, of course. ( Silmarillion & Unfinished Tales)I was reading some self published stuff last week, and the 2 big info dumps - in the most chliched way ( MC meets characterwho explains everything - MC neets baddie, ditto) ruined the rest of the book. Which i didn't finish.
I used the outsider character who doesn't know what's going on, and then gave her more information through out the entire story.And then in book two she finds out that she's been giving a highly flattering and *ahem* edited version of what really happened.
But in my stories, the back story is the real motive power of the plot. It's the whole why behind the what for the current story, and then figuring out what to do about it when it's finally come out in the second book sets up the conflict for that tale.
So, the book doesn't work without the back story.
In some stories you can tell it was just tacked on to add a bit of depth and eat up some more pages. And in some stories you can tell the writer couldn't care less about what's going on with the back story because he dumps it out as fast as possible to get it out of the way and then barrels into the next bit.
For me, that back story has been lovingly polished and laid out into a pattern of hints and clues, waiting for the MC to finally get the last bit that puts it together. And then we get a whole new book of what happens once she actually knows.
Will wrote: "Keryl raizses an interesting aspect of writing ; the back story. Every book begins at a certain point - how do you deal with your backstory without a huge (boring) info dump ?I found it easy -..."
I write my stories without knowing anything of the plot. As they discover it, I do too. I put in backstory as I think of it, usually as the character does something knew or differently from the way he's done it before, or for a different reason, but always in relation to the current action. In some cases, I put the backstory in the form of a story, within the story, told by a character who is at least temporarily assuming the role of a story-teller. In those cases I often have hecklers from the audience to keep it from getting too dull. Most recently I had my hero finally complete his grieving process telling how the person died, again with lots of back and forth between characters. I think it works best if the characters themselves don't know what's going on, and treat the backstory as a clue rather than something they already know.
Marc, I've tried that, but didn't find it too easy. I prefer to have a series od 'storyboards' to guide me from start to finish. Helps me pull the characters back on track whem they run off to do their own thing without permission, and makes sure i reach the planned end.
I also try to avoid the just go with it writing technique. I don't start a story until I know where it ends. I've seen too many authors end up with sad books because they wrote themselves into a corner to risk it. But, I also understand that if you can pull it off, you can end up with an amazing book.
Keryl wrote: "I also try to avoid the just go with it writing technique. I don't start a story until I know where it ends. I've seen too many authors end up with sad books because they wrote themselves into a ..."They can be painful to write, I will admit. My last took me 4 years, but I think it is an amazing book. The problem is that even if I do start out with some idea of where it's going, I almost always change it before it gets there. (It's an unfortunate reflex, I don't like to say or write anything that I've seen before. This applies to my own outlines and forecasts.)
Marc wrote: They can be painful to write, I will admit. My last took me 4 years, but I think it is an amazing book. The problem is that even if I do start out with some idea of where it's going, I almost always change it before it gets there. (It's an unfortunate reflex, I don't like to say or write anything that I've seen before. This applies to my own outlines and forecasts.) "Yikes! That does sound challenging.
If I go wandering off from the planned plot, I give it a long (long, long, long) time of thought. I don't want to find myself stuck in a writing trap where I've got to rip out a third of the story or suddenly whip out a lame deus ex machina to get out of the mess I got myself into.
Marc wrote: "Keryl wrote: "I also try to avoid the just go with it writing technique. I don't start a story until I know where it ends. I've seen too many authors end up with sad books because they wrote them..."I would be afraid of not having a plan for that very reason, taking a long time to finish the story. To each his own, though. Martin took a handful of years to finish "Dance with Dragon" and it was a great book. I prefer to loosely plan my story, leaving enough wiggle room for changes if I come up with new ideas. Characters should be allowed to grow, the story too.
Keryl wrote: "If I go wandering off from the planned plot, I give it a long (long, long, long) time of thought. I don't want to find myself stuck in a writing trap where I've got to rip out a third of the story or suddenly whip out a lame deus ex machina to get out of the mess I got myself into. "Well, it's not like I just 'make this stuff up' as I go along. When I first started writing I developed my technique of spinning everything out of the character's own logic. I only add elements that the characters discover and/or figure out, so it's hard to paint myself into a corner.
That said, what held up my last book was the solution to the problem. The solution I thought I had sort of disintegrated about halfway through. Finding a solution that used the elements of the story took a very long time, for the simple reason that it required a combination of story elements that normally isn't allowed. I don't suppose it would make too many purists happy. That's what happens when you're a pantser.
This is the eternal struggle between Planners and Pantsers.Myself, I'm a pantser. I write what comes to my mind, and form the plot in my head as I go. Often this will lead to massive bursts in my writing where I can get 3000-5000 words down in one night. And other times I may just sit and stare at the screen.
I'll usually go back and do some structural editing during the course of writing to make sure the plot makes sense, and to fix consistency issues. In my first book, I completely changed the personality of one of my characters during editing.
I think I'm most comfortable with this method of writing simply because of the dynamic nature of role playing games. When I'm running a game, I generally don't write more than two or three sessions in advance, because the players could change things. This habit seems to transfer into my writing.
We all write differently, style and methods differ between each writer. We need to be comfortable with our individual methods less writing be reduced to going to the dentist to get a tooth pulled. I swear, staring at my screen with nothing flowing out my head through my fingertips causes a lot of stress. Plus, with working a regular 9-5 job to pay the bills, my time for writing is precious.
Thomas wrote: "This is the eternal struggle between Planners and Pantsers.Myself, I'm a pantser. I write what comes to my mind, and form the plot in my head as I go. "
I write this way too. Tried to plan things up, but so far only got what I want the start and the end to be, and trying to fill up the rest from air.
Like many others, I write fantasy because I love the freedom. Everything still needs to make sense though - people can't suddenly sprout wings just because there's a chasm to cross.My biggest influence was/is Terry Pratchett - I love the way he weaves humour into his stories. I hope my one book (so far) has the humour as an integral part of the tale... not just a bolt-on.
Eko wrote: "Thomas wrote: "This is the eternal struggle between Planners and Pantsers.Myself, I'm a pantser. I write what comes to my mind, and form the plot in my head as I go. "
I write this way too. Trie..."
The only time I do pantster is when I'm writing flash. Then it's easy just to have the overall idea, and let it flow. The book I am presently writing, the third in my series, came about from a set of senes I wrote and discarded in book 2, as they didn't fit the plot structure.
No need to waste them, recycling into a new work is very eco friendly...
Will wrote: "Eko wrote: "Thomas wrote: "This is the eternal struggle between Planners and Pantsers.Myself, I'm a pantser. I write what comes to my mind, and form the plot in my head as I go. "
I write th..."
I typically write off-the-cuff when doing short stories or novella. Not enough to plot out an entire novel, plus, I'm trying to put together a quick story. If I start planning, I'll end up writing a novel and putting a ton of stuff in that doesn't need to be there.
Will wrote: "No need to waste them, recycling into a new work is very eco friendly... ":) I'm also doing a bit of recycling as well. There's a place for every scene (right?).
Okay, maybe not that one with the trombone and the turkey, but every other scene can be used somewhere else.
I've just had approval from my publisher to insert an entire 5K short story already released elsewhere into book 3 in my series, as it uses the characters and I have -accidentally- opened a perfect slot in the story.Re use is very modern, don't you think?
On the cliche thread I mentioned an editor who rejected some of my stuff out of hand because it contained a dragon.Has anyone had a similar experience with anything else, fo us all to avoid?
Will wrote: "On the cliche thread I mentioned an editor who rejected some of my stuff out of hand because it contained a dragon.Has anyone had a similar experience with anything else, fo us all to avoid?"
Will, are you serious? This has not happened to me, though I must confess that I've never written a dragon into one of my stories... YET.
That just seems completely ridiculous, but I guess if an editor is trying to stay away from cliches then a dragon is a rather large one that cannot be ignored, what with the roaring, spitting, and breathing fire. LOL.
As I mentioned over there, decades ago there was a similar moratorium on time travel stories. These things come & go. I guess editors are humans, too. They get so many stories on a particular subject they get sick of it. I'm not saying it's right, but it is understandable.
Jim wrote: "As I mentioned over there, decades ago there was a similar moratorium on time travel stories. These things come & go. I guess editors are humans, too. They get so many stories on a particular su..."Since you say that, I wonder when vampires and werewolves will be played out. Both types of characters are cliche and overused today.
Clinton, unfortunately I am. I have a standing invitation to offer all new work to that editor, although they haven't accepted anything yet. They are a mid sized, well known UK press, although not big 6, and i would love to get in there... that's why I had an explanation with the rejection.Jim, I expect Vampires & Were wolves will shortly get the same traetment. (Good)
Clinton wrote: "Since you say that, I wonder when vampires and werewolves will be played out. Both types of characters are cliche and overused today. "I would say that 'the end is near' at least when it comes to UF, but with a PNR twist the vampire and werewolves have made it into the romance field, which never seems to suffer from any 'cliche'-restrictions.
Will wrote: "Jim, I expect Vampires & Were wolves will shortly get the same traetment. (Good) "Don't know why it's good, exactly. Not all treatments of vampires or werewolves are cliche. Agyar is quite original, and my own werewolf novel, which puts them on a haunted lunar colony, is not something seen before either. I admit to being tired of alpha-males, pack politics, and sexy French ruffled shirts, though.
Marc wrote: "Will wrote: "Jim, I expect Vampires & Were wolves will shortly get the same traetment. (Good) "Don't know why it's good, exactly. Not all treatments of vampires or werewolves are cliche. [book:Ag..."
If you can do it right and correct something fresh, then yeah the vampire/werewolf cliche can be done well. However, many readers seems to enjoy the old cliche so much that writers continue to pander to that. And yes, in the romance genre it is prevalent, as it is in paranormal fantasy. I like how Jim Butcher has done vampires and werewolves, the groups are done differently enough that it's interesting.
Werewolves in space may be interesting, Marc. I might have to check that out.
I'm not exactly sure when Dragon's would have made it on the big black list, but I guess that knocks me out as well. There is exactly one dragon in my book.I admit, there are some uses of dragons that are tired. But to reject something outright because of the mere presence of the creature seems very narrow sighted to me. Of course, he's the editor, and I'm the writer, so I couldn't begin to know what he's seen or is thinking.
Will wrote: "On the cliche thread I mentioned an editor who rejected some of my stuff out of hand because it contained a dragon.Has anyone had a similar experience with anything else, fo us all to avoid?"
One of my friends has been told by three separate agents that they're tossing anything that begins with a dream.
Keryl wrote: "Will wrote: "On the cliche thread I mentioned an editor who rejected some of my stuff out of hand because it contained a dragon.Has anyone had a similar experience with anything else, fo us all t..."
There was actually a heated debate over this during last years ABNA contest. Dream sequences are always tough to pull off without sounding weird or out of place. I originally had a dream sequence in my book, but removed it during editing, as it ended up feeling out of place.
Thomas wrote: "There was actually a heated debate over this during last years ABNA contest. Dream sequences are always tough to pull off without sounding weird or out of place. I originally had a dream sequence in my book, but removed it during editing, as it ended up feeling out of place. "My sense was the immediate tossage had more to do with it being a lazy way of "magicking" up a book and dropping a quick clue that something was coming.
But I've got that third hand, so it might not be particularly accurate.
Thing is, once these ideas start getting around agents, they spread like a disease, and then all books get tarred with the brush - often without being read.I'll avoid dreams now, as well. ( Although my present publisher is fine with my dragon, and the (rather) odd vampire. But is clear that these are one offs in the series.
Now, I need a good new monster....
Will wrote: "Now, I need a good new monster.... "Invent your own. One of the best parts of writing is when elements you created without any thought of how they would combine suddenly combine, and you have to figure out what you've just made. My WIP is doing that to me right now.
I only have one story about dragons, in which my hero accidentally invents them.
I'm trialling that at the moment, with 'Notsanta', the yang to santa's Yin if you follow me.have to see how it goes.
Marc wrote: "Invent your own. One of the best parts of writing is when elements you created without any thought of how they would combine suddenly combine, and..."Inventing your own seems the best option these days. My fantasy world doesn't have the conventional fantasy races in it. My goal when building the world was that I would come up with something entirely new.
All of my races (with the exception of humans and the lone dragon) are custom made for my world.
The difficulty with that Thomas, for me, would be in making the races/monsters touch a chord with the reader. Did you go small and fluffy, or rabid and bloodthirsty?
Will wrote: "The difficulty with that Thomas, for me, would be in making the races/monsters touch a chord with the reader. Did you go small and fluffy, or rabid and bloodthirsty?"Well, that's the trick, right? But this challenge is nothing new for writers. I like to go my own way on this kind of stuff.
The one major race in my first book (other than humans) are called Narshuks, and yes, they are vicious and bloodthirsty. But they have an honor system, and a hierarchy to their society. A lot of thought has been put into this type of thing in my world. :)
Thomas wrote: "Will wrote: "The difficulty with that Thomas, for me, would be in making the races/monsters touch a chord with the reader. Did you go small and fluffy, or rabid and bloodthirsty?"Well, that's the..."
Thomas, do you tend to draw inspiration for your races from existing cultures/people/religions? Some authors do this. I myself like to take a basic idea that exists, twist it and morph it into something completely unique.
Fantasy Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
Vector Prime (other topics)Leviathan Wakes (other topics)
The Golden Bough (other topics)
Distress (other topics)
Mission of Gravity (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
L. Frank Baum (other topics)James George Frazer (other topics)
Andrew Lang (other topics)
George R.R. Martin (other topics)
Mark Twain (other topics)
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The book I'm referring to is [book:Across the Face o..."
It does give a lot of insight into Roland... but man does it drag in places. I've been having a hard time getting through it because it's so light on plot.