Romeo and Juliet
discussion
Why does anyone like this?


And you're right. That bit about Billy Bob Thornton is real comforting.

Oh, and just for the record, I'm not a big personal fan of his works -- but I immensely respect his perceptions, skills as a master wordsmith and The Bard's ability to relate them to audiences. That he was able to also become a substantial financial success is also indicative of the quality of his work.






WS captured life's journey like no one else of his time was able to.
Let's face it, who (as a teenager) has never felt like they would die without that certain someone? That's how teens operate/feel. To the EXTREME.
To me, Romeo and Juliet is just the ultimate love story.
And, yes, I am a self-proclaimed sap. :)



WS captured life's journey like no one else of his time was able to.
Let's face it, who (as a teenager) has never felt like..."
Jennifer, I would die for girls so many times as a youth I should have been a cat. :-) Nothing wrong with being a "sap." Far better than lacking emotion.


I think part of the problem for our class was psychological: it's tougher to enjoy a book when it's assigned homework (from a somewhat disliked teacher), not something to read in our free time at our own pace. I still didn't like the story enough to give it another go, though.

I also really recommend watching http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwnFE_... if you're looking for some humor in R&J. I think Sassy Gay Friend is hilarious, gives a comedic perspective to great literary works, and everyone must watch this at least once.



Coming to the present day, I still respect and enjoy this book. The writing is beautiful, and the story is unforgettable. Look at how many stories of loves that could not be have been told. True the story here is nothing short of ordinary today. Two teenagers who think they are in love and do some dumb stuff because of it. But it is so much more than that. It's about believing in something so fully that you would rather die than live without it. I think that that is some part of true love.
Call me a romantic, but I love a good romance. I am a sucker for a love story. Even one that could be considered silly.

Yes, we had to read it last year, but generally that never affects any love I have for a good story.
There are so many things that drive me crazy. For one, I feel it's incredibly unrealistic. And I mean, I'm not under the delusion that all writing is, but really? The timespan? Call me crazy, but three days is not "love," at least not the kind worth dying for. I think it's melodramatic (which I get it, Shakespeare specialized in, but still) and still being a teenager, a little insulting.
Even if it was love, I still struggle with the idea of killing yourself because you think someone else is dead, or they actually have died. I know they were living in a pressured, prejudiced world, and I know Juliet was potentially betrothed (or definitely betrothed, I can't remember for sure) to someone she did not love, but I just can't understand that. Love IS worth dying for, but I think that unfortunately, "love" seems to be considered exclusive to romance, when it stretches far beyond that. To me, this play really supports this constriction, and that's hard for me to handle.
That being said, I do appreciate the importance of Shakespeare. He wrote well, and was certainly not without humor, but honestly, I just can't take this story.
So there, those are my frustrations in a very summed up fashion! Hope they make sense!

First thing: Shakespeare isn't for everybody, so I understand why one would be disinclined to love him. However, his plays are plays, not books. They should be on the stage, to echo another poster here.
When I teach Shakespeare, I make sure that I focus on the thing that make him amazing: his wordplay. Both with the poetics and with - I'll put it bluntly - sex jokes. Shakespeare's audience was made up mostly of lower class people who wanted to be entertained. Therefore, there are a lot of dick jokes in Shakespeare's stuff. A surprising amount. On the other hand, he was able to convey such complex matters of the heart with only a few lines, stuffed into iambic pentameter. Read his sonnets if you don't believe me. He's a master of the English language. His contributions of words themselves are still used today. Dozens and dozens of words were coined by him and they continue to this day. Plus, the puns! Oh the puns!
When I teach Shakespeare, I make sure that I focus on the thing that make him amazing: his wordplay. Both with the poetics and with - I'll put it bluntly - sex jokes. Shakespeare's audience was made up mostly of lower class people who wanted to be entertained. Therefore, there are a lot of dick jokes in Shakespeare's stuff. A surprising amount. On the other hand, he was able to convey such complex matters of the heart with only a few lines, stuffed into iambic pentameter. Read his sonnets if you don't believe me. He's a master of the English language. His contributions of words themselves are still used today. Dozens and dozens of words were coined by him and they continue to this day. Plus, the puns! Oh the puns!


Yes, you do have a love story and it's easy to be like, "Julie, you're 13. You met him 48 hours ago, give it some time." But there are these amazing monologues like Queen Mab, and the dialogue between Romeo and Benvolio is just genius.
Oh how I wish I could have been a groundling in that theatre. Give me a time machine and I'd see Chaucer first and then The Bard. :)

LarryM

1. Mercutio
2. Tybalt (Shakespeare always writes good villains)
3. Because of lines like this: "Not I, believe me: you have dancing shoes with nimble soles: I have a soul of lead so stakes me to the ground I cannot move."
4. And this "Men's eyes were made to look, and let them gaze; I will not budge for no man's pleasure, I."
5. There are lessons to be learned from the play and they have nothing to do with true love and how you can't stop it.
6. Shakespeare was young when he wrote it (about 22).
7. Iambic pentameter -- you can't deny that it required obsessive passion to pull off.
8. It is universally and immediately recognized by people of all ages.
9. Who couldn't love a play that Andy Griffith used in one of his standup routines?
10. We are still discussing it 400 years later.
Hannah wrote: "Different Hannah than from above. Had to clarify because it seems as if we both have similar opinions. Personally I love R&J and Shakespeare in general, but as someone else said, Shakespeare was me..."
Don't forget Marlowe! You'd want to see him too
Don't forget Marlowe! You'd want to see him too

That said, the time and circumstances are different than what we expect for the title characters in Romeo and Juliet. Juliet is thirteen and has lived a very sheltered life - she has no experience of love or even crushes at all (they state this early in the play, before she meets Romeo). She's probably not met too many men of an age she could develop such affections for outside of her family. She is easily swept up in the romance and passion of it all. She is also trapped in a feuding family, a forced marriage to a man she doesn't know, much less love, and a threat of disowning at the hint of rebellion. That is a very scary situation for such a girl who, in the time and place, wouldn't have been able to support herself or have anyone to fall back on if she did end up getting disowned or ended up in a miserable or abusive marriage. Marriage to someone she did love (or believe she loved) could easily seem a preferable alternative.
The play heavily suggests that Romeo, on the other hand, falls in and out of desperate love regularly (he's at the party to meet another girl whom he considers the love of his life, after all). And at the time, a boy from a well-to-do family may very well see marriage as the logical extension of love. Dating didn't really exist, after all. In theory, he probably should have gotten his parents' approval, but he was old enough to marry and there was that feud, so, again, it's not too hard to see why he would make the choice he did.
The deaths are, ultimately, a big series of misunderstandings intersecting with the series of bad situations that Romeo and Juliet have found themselves in at that point. Each sees the other as their way out of the chaos, what makes it worth it (i.e. it's only bearable to be exiled from the only home he's ever known because the woman he loves will be by his side). Obviously, neither made a well-considered choice there, objectively speaking. Particularly since we, the audience know that everything will be ok if they only wait for a minute, but such is the stuff of tragedy. It wouldn't be half so tragic if there wasn't the element of "but everything was almost happily ever after" to it.
For all we know, if they had lived, they would have realized that they couldn't stand each other.
The story is much older than this play, though. Shakespeare only pulled from sources. Almost none of his plots are original (only one that I know of, actually). This one has a heaping spoonful of the myth of "Pyramus and Thisbe", which he also retold in A Midsummer Night's Dream. That tale is just about as ridiculous from the point of view of the relationship itself (they only get to see each other through a wall - never really meet in person).


It's fun to root for the struggling couple, be angry at the forces they strive to keep them apart, and in the end weep at their inevitable failure of making it work.
Since you didn't clue us into why


Here's another famous quote from this play:
Romeo:
But soft, what light through yonder window breaks?
It is the east, and Juliet is the sun.
That is pretty easy to get with. Feel every word of that with your whole heart. Does it fill you with emotion and meaning? That's what this is all about.
Don't get hung up on the intellectual part of it. There's no way to capture the beauty of that line in intellectual terms. If we tried, we'd get something like, it’s as though she radiates light, turns night into day, yadda yadda yadda, etc. It’s just not very meaningful intellectually.
But emotionally, if you take a minute to feel them, Shakespeares’s words here are tremendously meaningful, uplifting, glorious, and inspiring. That's what it's all about.
I blog about this at http://vikrubenfeld.com.


V.E. wrote: "I really dislike this story. It is a horrible love story and I thought both Romeo and Juliet was stupid. Shakespeare's writing wasn't even that great in this play compared to his other plays. ech."
I think it's logically fallacious to dislike a "text" because characters within behaved in a stupid manner.
I think it's logically fallacious to dislike a "text" because characters within behaved in a stupid manner.
I'm a total romantic, but honestly, one of my favorite things about reading this book was being able to laugh at the ridiculousness. Maybe it wasn't the reaction the Bard was hoping for, but it was still an awesome book. If I had tried to take the book too seriously I wouldn't have even been able to finish it. I also loved the language (though I didn't always understand all of it).

Please expand on this idea, why were they foolish?

Valerie wrote: "I would like to know how the people of the time reacted to this story. People rarely married for love, only the poor did that. Anyone with status and/or money married for status and money. Affairs..."
This is a modern and incorrect perception of historical times. People did indeed marry for love before the 20th century. Affairs were common just as they are now, if only because of human nature.
The play was well-received in Shakespeare's time as with most of his output. It was extremely popular during his lifetime and is one of his most performed play. It is a re-writing of a tragic romance, a form that people were very familiar with. It was not considered a "guilty pleasure" as the modern trashy romance is considered. The tragic romance was an important form of text stretching back from the classical era to now.
This is a modern and incorrect perception of historical times. People did indeed marry for love before the 20th century. Affairs were common just as they are now, if only because of human nature.
The play was well-received in Shakespeare's time as with most of his output. It was extremely popular during his lifetime and is one of his most performed play. It is a re-writing of a tragic romance, a form that people were very familiar with. It was not considered a "guilty pleasure" as the modern trashy romance is considered. The tragic romance was an important form of text stretching back from the classical era to now.

I've always been really curious about that myself. I'm sure that there are many with status who would've been opposed to something like this, especially if it meant that Shakespeare was sort of comparing Romeo and Juliet to the lower classes. Who knows. Just need a time machine to go back and have a look. lol.
I, myself, am not a very big fan of this play. I'm a big Shakespeare fan, but of all of his plays, this is probably my least favorite. It's a romance (which isn't something I particularly enjoy anyhow), but it's a really bad romance with plenty of over-dramatic, sappy lines. Shakespeare has written so many better things than this. To be fair, the ending is sad. Of course, most audiences then would've found it even more depressing and shocking (if they hadn't been shocked already enough) seeing as suicide was marked as an unforgivable sin, and you would've been burned in hell for it.
Well it was a tragic romance, as I say, so the audience was already familiar with the form, which often included suicide. Also, Shakespeare's audience was predominantly Anglican, not Catholic, so their views on sins were a little bit more relaxed.
Just because the characters commit suicide doesn't mean people find the end depressing. In fact, the sheer tragedy of the romance itself is spiritually uplifting. Which is to say that it is greater to love something to the point of agony than not to love. This is a tired and old trope of literature from before Shakespeare.
Just because the characters commit suicide doesn't mean people find the end depressing. In fact, the sheer tragedy of the romance itself is spiritually uplifting. Which is to say that it is greater to love something to the point of agony than not to love. This is a tired and old trope of literature from before Shakespeare.


R&J is good as Introductory Shakespeare. The writing gets better, with fantastic plays like Hamlet and King Lear still on the horizon. This is Shakespeare just as he's starting to get good. He's still got a couple small problems to work through, like a very odd "comic relief" scene that occurs between a couple musicians and the Nurse's servant just after the Capulet's learn Juliet is "dead". High schoolers relate to it because it's a lot like their lives, or what they think love is.
But, a more mature reader can look at this so many different ways. Mercutio's Queen Mab speech doesn't add anything to the narrative aside from a glimpse into a potentially crazy guy's psyche. With Friar Lawrence, we can question Shakespeare's feelings on the Catholic Church. His contemporaries would have made the Friar a corrupt villain. Shakespeare makes him benevolent, but incompetant (how much better would things have gone had he not decided to try and play peacemaker?).
What do you get out of the play? Poetry, some of it beautiful, but also the play is a product of its time, where noble characters spoke in verse (commoners spoke in prose). And something about the verse Shakespeare wrote stood the test of time. It happens sometimes. The cloests to a modern day example I can think of for what was intended as dumb, disposable entertainment that somehow became more is The Looney Toons (and others), cartoon shorts never meant to stand the test of time, and yet still did.
Shakespeare has perfectly captured young love here. It starts suddenly, is passionate, and not a little bit stupid. Had the pair lived, it is entirely possible Romeo would have seen some other girl catch his eye within a few months given how quickly he forgets Roselyn. A lot of folks think it's a love story for the ages, but I don't read it that way.
Anyway, since it was a play, the best way to experience it is to watch it. Shakespeare's plays aren't done the way modern plays are, and the closest to seeing the real thing may be the play scenes in "Shakespeare in Love".

I don't see anything fallacious about disliking a story based on my opinions of the characters and their actions. Maybe my comment was a tad vehement but you will note that I said I disliked the story. Also, as for the quality of the text itself, I just prefer Shakespeare's writing in some of his other plays to this one.

Because they didn't seem to have any real basis for their love. I could understand them thinking they'd fallen in love "at first sight" but not really up to the point of killing themselves. Also, Romeo seemed very fickle. He was just pining and being dramatic over Rosalind and then completely forgot about her when he saw Juliet. He seemed more in love with the idea of love than actually being in love with anyone.

Not to defend his actions, or whatever behaviors of that pass scrutiny in a past societies suspension of disbelief, but what does rationality have to do with R&J behavior.
To think that everyone thinks rationally because you think rationally is in itself irrational. You don't have agree with the thought process of the person to understand that such thinking is possible. Romeo was probably Juliet's first lay, which, because of romantic stories of time and endorphin production, had a strong bonding effect on her.
Romeo may be a butterfly, but when he fell for someone his addicted personality would have him bonded with that person until someone more lovelier came along.
I'm sure if I tried I could think of even more reasons why someone after such a brief, hot, passionate, love affair would act in a way that in this day and age is deemed reserved for the most deranged of couples.

This is all encapsulated quite well by the Prince's final speech.
Rather timeless story, no?
I think it's totally fair to dislike one of the canonical classics of literature. I for one do not like The Grapes of Wrath. However, I can defend my position with more than, "the characters acted stupid" or "I didn't believe in the story" as if to imply that realism is in any way important to good storytelling. With Shakespeare, I think it's integral to defend one's self because Shakespeare is so absolutely codified into our culture. No matter how one dislikes the form (iambic pentamater), the plays are extremely important to our cultural psyche. Therefore, it is important that detractors be able to defend their position. People can hold differing opinions; they must be able to articulate them.

With that said it is much better to "see" a play written by Shakespeare than to read it. You cannot infer tone and inflection while reading. The story comes to life in a way you cannot imagine on the pages.
To quote the immortal bard: "All the world's a stage, And all the men and women merely players."

But I'm not here to rant (..."
One of my friends wants to stage it as a comedy...ya know: horn dog teen boy pulls the wool over naive girl child and death ensues.

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But I'm not here to rant (that might be a lie), this question is really for the people that like this. So, um, if you didn't already get it...
Why do you like it?