Mapping Fictional Cultures/Religions to Real Ones

[Ryan]

The topic about whether a religion in Elantris resembles Islam or Christianity got me thinking about the subject in a more general way. Cultures and religions in fantasy novels are sometimes intentionally based after ones from our own world; sometimes realistically, sometimes romantically. Some books do that well, most don't when it's that intentional. Others try to be more original but I find my mind painting the setting with broadstrokes such as "Western" or "Eastern". The best do come across as very original. I think a good example is the people that Kvothe learns sword fighting from in The Wise Man's Fear. Although the focus on martial arts seems very Asian, the culture itself I have a hard time finding parallels with.

What are some good and bad example from your favorite books? Recent examples for me is the two waring cultures from The Prince of Nothing. The setting overall is very original but there are some parallels with the Christian crusades. Glen Cook goes very original in The Black Company series (an all time fave) but in the Instrumentalities of the Night series there are obvious parallels with Europe and the Middle East and the Crusades. In The Deepness in the Sky I can't help but compare the spider nation of The Accord to the UK or the USA. I can think of many other good examples but I'll stop here.

[Mike]

Guy Gavriel Kay's cultures are deliberately based very closely on their real-world analogues, and I think he does it very well. The Lions of Al-Rassan stands out for me.

The only poor example I can think of is Philip Pullman's Golden Compass. I'm an atheist and even I found his portrayal unfair and unsubtle.

[Sanjiv]

Speaking of a Wise Man's Fear, were the Bodegans(Fela's ethnicity, and that one lady who plum-poisoned his Kvothe's drink) French?

Once you have a list of examples, then what? Where does the conversation go from there?

While I don't like analogues of specific nations or cultures in fantasy, I certainly enjoy the fact that different cultures and nations exist. I.e. the different nations in A Hundred Thousand Kingdoms, none of which I could fully identify.

I remember coming across 'Christians' in a fantasy novel, and somehow I didn't like that. I rather that my fantasy not comment on any aspect of reality at all. I dislike coming across 'chess' in fantasy worlds as well. It means that all of a sudden I have to exercise real world judgment and critical analysis, where as I'd rather think deeply without the pressure of consequence.

[Michael]

Really, were they actually called Christians too? That seems rather bizarre. It doesn't bother me when fantasy pursues analogies, if they make sense in the world, but especially if we are talking about a non-Earth setting, the existence of things like Christians or chess simply doesn't make any sense, as those are based in Earth-specific histories. (Even supposing a Christ-figure also incarnated on the non-Earth in such a story, would he be called Christ?)

[Ryan]

yeah, somewhere there's a zone in my mind for including things from our world into fantasy worlds. On one far side is the inclusion of too many familiar things with familiar names, Chess and Christianity would fall into that category if that's what they were actually called in a book. On the opposite far side is where everything has to have a new name, even common everyday things like minutes and cups and chairs.

[Sanjiv]

I like not having to rename words like 'chair' and 'water' either. But do I want hippogryphs instead of horses? Y'know, that would actually be cool. I don't see why these worlds need cats or dogs.

The Christianity reference wasn't so bad, though they were literally called 'Christians'. I think this was a sciFi setting where the protagonist mentions in passing the odd ball Christians thought that even a servant-race were people. Christians here (actually called that) were a minority, and the slave race actually were non-people. I didn't continue to read the book, but although it probably was just a plug on how awesome Christians are in real life, it also spoke (to me) of the idea that if there was a God, he'd send his avatar to sentient life wherever it was, and that his name in that world would be the same as his name in this.

It was a bold move that ruined the reality break for me, but I appreciate that it could be done well. Perhaps a reference like that should have come later in the text.

[Mike]

Sanjiv wrote: "I rather that my fantasy not comment on any aspect of reality at all."

I don't think fantasy has to be purely for entertainment, so if the author wants to make a point about or reference to our world, I don't have any problem with that. However, it's very difficult to do something like this well, and it's difficult to make a point that isn't trite or uninformed. Stepping out of pure entertainment and into social commentary is a dangerous game. Religion seems to be an area of particular temptation in this regard---many people think they have interesting things to say about religion, and nearly all of them are wrong.

[Ryan]

Mike wrote: "many people think they have interesting things to say about religion, and nearly all of them are wrong"

amen

[Sanjiv]

I agree that fantasy can and should contain real world lessons. In fact, the thing I like about Fantasy is that authors can set up any situation without readers' bringing in real world prejudices or expectations that might clash with what the author intended.
Frankly, when I hear mention of Christianity, I immediately grow suspicious, while other readers might breath a welcome sigh of relief. I'm not against having real world concepts in books, but mentioning them specifically might be counter productive to the author's intentions.

Fantasy's greatest strength is that it can get away from reality in order to then better talk about reality.

[Michael]

That's a very well written explanation for why I prefer sci-fi/fantasy over regular fiction.

[Paul]

For me, real world parallels really add something if done well but detract if they're clumsy and intrusive. For example, just about all of Pratchett's Discworld novels contain rather heavy metaphors of reality (in fact I've heard it suggested that A'Tuin was originally supposed to be pronounced as "our twin"), but they work because the world building is strong enough to carry the mirror image - in a fairground mirror distortion, admittedly. Sometimes drawing too close parallels can definitely break the reality - but so can trying too hard to remain too aloof; too many invented terms for creatures and objects can, instead of giving a sense of mood and alieness, create a barrier for the reader.

Sanjiv said "Fantasy's greatest strength is that it can get away from reality in order to then better talk about reality."

Perfectly put. Sci-fi so often does the same, being able to address real-world issues effectively because of the distance of the setting.