Sick and tired of the heroic asexual characters

[Traci]

But realistic characters can still be feminine. I didn't really mean the super thin super model look. But it was brought up that only a woman who is built like a man can fight like a man. And I probably wouldn't like reading or playing a character that looks like a female bodybuilder. It was just my opinion though.

But Brienne is one of my favorite characters from ASoIaF. Like top five atleast. So maybe I didn't give myself enough credit.

[Marc]

Traci wrote: "But realistic characters can still be feminine. I didn't really mean the super thin super model look. But it was brought up that only a woman who is built like a man can fight like a man. And I pro..."

It also depends on what you mean by 'fight like a man'. There are several areas, such as fencing, where speed is a more important quality than strength, and in those areas a woman could easily fight as well as a man. Robert Asprin used that in one of his Phule books. The TV show Burn Notice has a woman who is a much better shot than any of her male counterparts, but when she gets into the hand-to-hand stuff she gets beaten a lot, since she's a stick-figure otherwise.

[Traci]

I believe the orginal argument was against strength. That a woman could not have a slim appearance and fight as well as a man with a two handed broadsword.

[Jennifer]

definitely George RR Martin's Song of Ice and Fire series. No one is entirely "good" or "bad"; everyone is flawed , and even the heroes do some pretty rotten things. Just as the "villains" occasionally show really good character-

Jenn
William wrote: "I've recently read Patrick Rothfuss' latest work and Brandersson's The Way of Kings. I'm currently reading the latest Eragon book and I'm considering not even finishing the book. The good and heroi..."

[Weenie]

Traci wrote:"But Brienne is one of my favorite characters from ASoIaF. Like top five atleast. So maybe I didn't give myself enough credit."

Was wondering if anyone would mention the 'fair maiden' of Tarth. Great character, one of my favourites too.

Would be interesting to see how she is portrayed in the next HBO series - any big blonde actresses out there? No, not big in the boob department but as in big muscles who looks like she could swing a two-handed sword without causing an accident!

[Wastrel]

They've gone with an actress who isn't muscular at all. On the other hand, she is 6 foot 3, fairly flat-chested, and in bulky armour could probably look realistic. A bit too distinctive in her face to match the books, though - not exactly classically beautiful, but quite child-like. I think it'll work.

[Weenie]

Good height, blonde hair and blue eyes - yes should work!

[S.J.]

Wow, some interesting discussions in this thread too. I read the whole thing and have to admit that the lack of realistic relationships in some fantasy stories is disappointing to me. I don't understand why some authors seem to avoid romance in fantasy writing. Romance and relationships are a part of life and it always seems odd to me when there's absolutely NONE of that in a character's story...like they're socially inept or something! The lack of it seems particularly disturbing when the characters are young adults - an age where the pursuit of relationships and/or sex is pretty important for most normal people. I also find that many otherwise good writers really fall down when they try to develop relationships in their stories. They either go for the 'love at first sight phenomenon' (please...no!) or they suddenly throw two characters who know each other into the sack and then they are supposedly "in love" after that. I despise that! Characters need a reason to fall in love IMHO, and developing that properly is really important so the relationship is believable. Having said that, I also despise sex thrown in solely for shock or entertainment value. If you're going to include it, it should add something to a relationship between two characters in the story or serve a purpose in the plot. The best example I can think of with regards to poor romance writing in an otherwise fantastic author is Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series. I really enjoyed this story but thought the romance between Rand and Elayne, and Rand and Aviendha was too much of a stretch to be believable. Rand's relationship with Min was at least somewhat believable because he had come to rely on her for emotional support. With the other two I was left wondering...where did this come from? As for authors who do a much better job of including and writing romance (and thus avoiding asexual characters), I'd recommend Brandon Sanderson's Mistborn series (characters Vin and Elend and also Waxillium and Marasi) or his stand-alone novel Warbreaker. George RR Martin certainly doesn't shy away from anything sexual/romantic either (he can be pretty explicit - so beware if that bothers you)! It's more of a sci fi series than a fantasy one, but Anne McCaffery's "The Tower and the Hive" series is pretty good for romance too.
As for "sexy" characters... I think their personalities have more to do with how I perceive them in that light than their physical descriptions do. (Incidentally...whoever coined the term "boobular" in this discussion: that was awesome!) Call me stereotypical or anti-feminist, but for me to consider a male character attractive, he should be some combination of dangerous/mysterious, charismatic/humourous, competent, honourable, protective of his loved ones, and sweet when he's not out kicking someone's butt. No wonder men get so frustrated with women....nobody could ever live up to those expectations! As for attractiveness of female characters...I like mine competent and honourable. I'll leave the "boobular" issues to any male readers who suffer from BIBD (breast-induced brain dysfunction)...lol.

[Marc]

SJ wrote: "Call me stereotypical or anti-feminist, but for me to consider a male character attractive, he should be some combination of dangerous/mysterious, charismatic/humourous, competent, honourable, protective of his loved ones, and sweet when he's not out kicking someone's butt. No wonder men get so frustrated with women....nobody could ever live up to those expectations! As for attractiveness of female characters...I like mine competent and honourable. "

The main characters in most of my favorite novels have all these qualities. One of the reasons they're favorite. Sometimes I'll keep a story on the list simply for those qualities alone.
I guess the logic behind making them asexual is that they're supposed to be on some epic quest or under fire all the time, and really that's not the time for romance, or the kind of intimacies that could lead to it. (Unless both characters are Holmes-level detectives and spot the smallest tells every time. I've read some where the romance was implied like this, but it wasn't handled well and didn't work.) When they do finally get together it turns into sex rather than love-making.

[Wastrel]

Wastrel wrote: "They've gone with an actress who isn't muscular at all. On the other hand, she is 6 foot 3, fairly flat-chested, and in bulky armour could probably look realistic. A bit too distinctive in her face..."

Replying to myself: having seen the pictures of her, she looks perfect for the role. Now we just have to see her act...

[S.J.]

Good point about the epic quest / no time for romance Marc. I think that is a valid consideration in some stories for certain... especially if you have a bunch of all-male or all-female heterosexual characters lost in the wilderness or something. That particular situation doesn't happen very often though. Many stories have groups made up of characters of both sexes operating under conditions of extreme stress and unusual circumstances... a perfect recipe for two compatible people to go beyond the normal camaraderie found in such a group. I suppose it annoys me when fantasy authors deliberately ignore that because they're uncomfortable writing about it...it's not very realistic. Heck, even Lord of the Rings alluded to the romance between Aragorn and Arwen (if only from afar), and Eowyn's infatuation with Aragorn was no secret either. I'd argue that if Tolkein had the courage to throw a little of that in for realism, modern fantasy writers should seriously consider it, especially if they're writing for a female audience.

[K.A.]

Don't forget Sam and Rosie!

[Olga]

I agree with SJ. Some of the best love stories were forged in wars. Shared danger pulls people together because it reveals the truth behind the masks we all wear in our day-to-day lives.

[S.J.]

OMG KA, you're right. How could I have forgotten Sam and Rosie?!?! How many kids did they end up having in the end?

[Lindsay]

SJ wrote: "OMG KA, you're right. How could I have forgotten Sam and Rosie?!?! How many kids did they end up having in the end?"

You could consider Gimli's infatuation with Galadriel as well. It is one sided but he was willing to fight Eomer for the perceived insult. That is a hard thing to write in a fantasy novel, a one sided love story that involves a tough-as-nails dwarf!

[K.A.]

SJ wrote: "OMG KA, you're right. How could I have forgotten Sam and Rosie?!?! How many kids did they end up having in the end?"

Sam was always one of my favorite characters - the real hero - he flippin' CARRIED Frodo! I never thought he got enough credit.

[A.L.]

Not wanting to blow my own trumpet, you could try mine;)
The relationships are complex, mainly by who they are- a former slave and a rich mysterious nobleman who rescues her. There is the more mundane "courting" relationship of the second set of characters which parallels the fiery mages. The world is dark and, again complex, and there are a lot of underlying secrets and lies some of which are revealed and some of which will be in subsequent books.

The female character is beautiful but in part that is instrumental in her terribly sad past.

[William]

I find the debate in this thread amusing. :)

A small update on my reading since I started this thread:

I greatly enjoyed Best served cold by Joe Abercrombie. I recently purchased The Heroes by him as well. The Steel Remains by Richard Morgan was recommendable as well. I'm currently reading the sequel. Theft of Swords by Michael J. Sullivan was enjoyable as well, no real heroes, but still a bit too soft for my taste. Will finish reading the series. Soul Born by Kevin James Breaux was a disappointment due to it's simple mindedness and beginner level writing.

Alexandra: I might pick up your book as well. There's no stores in Sweden that sell it, I might have to import it from Amazon. There's quite a lot of books on my to-read at the moment though, so I won't read it in the near future.

Thanks for the tips folk!

[C.P.]

Anyone who wants fantasy with a different twist try the 7th Swordsman books. A great read with a different spin on the normal fantasy feel.

I loved them and so has everyone who has borrowed them.

[Traveller]

Jim wrote: "Some stereotypes, as politically incorrect as they are, happen to be true. The average man is more aggressive, bigger, & stronger than the average woman, as an example. Not every one is, by any m..."

Um... as a female who did strength training in particular to be able to keep up with the males carrying heavy equipment for our hikes uphill to get to our rockclimbing bases, and of course for rock-climbing iself, I disagree with that. In fact, my BF encouraged me to do strength training.

At a point (the point where I decided to definitely stop working on my triceps, bc my arms were in fact starting to look a bit too muscular), I could pick up a barbell of more than 250 pounds while doing good mornings. (Which is something I clearly remember because one of the males in the gym couldn't get over how such a thin (small muscle-wise) girl could lift such heavy weights, and he kept making rather rude remarks about it). I was superthin before I started doing weight training, thin like a ramp-model.

The weights had me pick up about 10 kg's in muscle, but it actually makes a girls back, legs and torso look better. It's just the arms and shoulders that one has to look out for if you want to retain a slender, 'feminine look'.

These women could easily do the actions you describe, and they don't look too bad to me. http://www.calliebundy.com/images/gal...

When my arms started looking like this woman's is when I decided to completely stop working on the triceps http://www.cutandjacked.com/sites/def... , so I can tell you that the woman featured can probably heft around a good few pounds of weight.

This woman is certainly too big and too "cut" to be a ramp model, but honestly, why do women have to look like ramp models? That's sexist, and anyway, a healthy body is much more attractive IMO, than an emaciated one. http://lh6.ggpht.com/-SjULgP9res4/UBE...

[Traveller]

Kernos wrote: "I took the OP's question about the PG-13 rating of much fantasy and lack of essential behaviors like taking a leak or dump. While I do not like a lot of romance in novels I read, I think the characters should act like real people act..."

But, honestly, if you were to tell someone about your day at the the beach, or at Disneyland or visiting the Louvre, would you include the bits where you go for a leak or a dump? They're not actions that are necessary for the plot at all, are they?

[Adria]

I recommend the Nightside series by Simon R. Green. There are great plot twists and endings you never see coming. Very dark but also but very entertaining.

[Caleb]

Terry wrote: " That's my recommendation. Antihero, dark, not your typical fantasy and for his world, quite believable."

Can't recommend The Broken Empire Trilogy by Mark Lawrence enough. Read it, you will not regret it.

[Lára]

I´d recommend

but then, you want males in charge, no?

[Ruby]

Errr, I think some of you don't know the difference between asexual and androgynous ---
From the original poster, I think ze meant "asexual" in its correct usage --- lack of sexual or romantic drive, and this is definitely a problem in some fantasy novels.
I don't think there are too many characters who DON'T adhere to gender norms in fantasy - quite to the contrary, the genre is rife with stereotypes...

[Jennifer]

William wrote: "I've recently read Patrick Rothfuss' latest work and Brandersson's The Way of Kings. I'm currently reading the latest Eragon book and I'm considering not even finishing the book. The good and heroi..."

Definitely read this!

[Kimberly]

Poor treatment of characters' sexuality can damage a good book. I'm reading at the moment and it's missing an emotional connection between Rand and Egwene. Their interaction is swept beneath a cover of Rand's fumbling shyness and Egwene's near blanket obliviousness. It feels like Rand should be feeling a lot more than red faced. The relationships are poorly written, but so far it's otherwise a good book. I'm guessing from SJ's post up top that Rand-Egwene is going nowhere, but they don't know that so where's the hormones?

[Charles]

I am not a huge Jordan fan, mostly because of the hideously unwieldy number of characters and threads that eventually mire down the series. BUT...you are far too early into WOT to judge its relationships. Rand and Egwene are not to be lovers. Rand will pick up 3 girlfriends several books later, but as he continues to become more iconic and less "human" even these bondings are sort of weird. Jordan actually ends up doing a very decent job with relationships, including creating some very, very empowered female characters. All in all. a pretty decent series, though not as good, to me, as The Wars of Light and Shadow.

[Jamie]

William wrote: "I've recently read Patrick Rothfuss' latest work and Brandersson's The Way of Kings. I'm currently reading the latest Eragon book and I'm considering not even finishing the book. The good and heroi..."

George RR Martin's Game of Thrones series. Bit bothersome because he'll likely never finish the series but its very realistic. 40+ years as an avid reader and GRRM's A Game of Thrones is one of the best books I've ever read and definitely not a heroic juvenile.

[Greg]

Charles wrote: "I am not a huge Jordan fan, mostly because of the hideously unwieldy number of characters and threads that eventually mire down the series. BUT...you are far too early into WOT to judge its relati..."

Yeah, there's 14 more books for the relationship to develop. Patience.