How does Breaking Dawn count as a CLEAN ROMANCE??

[Taylor]

I'm new to this group. I joined because I write 'adult clean romance' and I'm thrilled that there is a group of people who LOVE clean romance, like me! I feel that this is an overlooked market in the publishing world. Nearly all of my reviews mention that my romance is clean. But then, I received one review from a reviewer who didn't feel my book was clean and I was shocked! What? I take pride in writing clean romance! Go figure! With all the smut that is included in romance novels today, I think anyone who writes a ROMANCE novel that attempts to portray morality should be commended! I've quickly learned that what one person finds clean, another doesn't! I like to write passionate books wherein the couple waits for marriage for intimacy. It's 'fade to black' romance. I feel that Breaking Dawn falls into this category. I also feel it stood for 'waiting for marriage' which is a good example to teens. So refreshing in this day and age. I agree with one of the above comments that mentioned that everyone has a different level of what they deem clean. And I respect that. Very interesting! Fascinating discussion!

[Nanci]

Taylor wrote: "I'm new to this group. I joined because I write 'adult clean romance' and I'm thrilled that there is a group of people who LOVE clean romance, like me! I feel that this is an overlooked market in t..."

I also feel that intimacy after marriage is appropriate. Passion and physical love are part of a marriage. Romance definitely has a physical element. In my opinion, the knowledge that a couple enjoys kissing and feels the chemistry between them is still in the realms of clean. As long as their bedroom door stays closed, so to speak. I also feel that strong profanity is never appropriate. People can express themselves without resorting to crude or vulgar language. The character is much more intelligent and likeable if they are able to use words rather than vulgarity.

In the Young Adult realm, I will not recommend anything to a teen if the teenage characters are having sex or if it is protrayed as normal, or expected, to do so. Even if there are no details and could technically be called clean.

[Taylor]

Perfectly worded, Nanci. I like how you said, romance has a physical element. I agree. I just don't want any explicit details when I read--and I don't add any when I write my books. But, I've learned that everyone has a different opinion on this matter! Perhaps we need to start a discussion on what is considered 'clean romance' and what is not.

[Lisa]

Taylor wrote: "Perfectly worded, Nanci. I like how you said, romance has a physical element. I agree. I just don't want any explicit details when I read--and I don't add any when I write my books. But, I've learn..."

There has been some discussion http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1... and, like you, the consensus there seems to be that different people have different tolerances. Some don't mind premarital sex, as long as it's "offscreen." Others don't approve of premarital sex, but don't mind a sex scene between married people as long as it's not too graphic. Some hate bad language, others don't mind. It's too bad romance books don't have a voluntary rating system. Maybe a 2 out of 5 for sex scenes, 4 for language, 0 for premarital sex, etc.

[Sheri]

One of my favorite fan letters came from a woman who read my Regency THE WEAVER TAKES A WIFE, and wrote, "Thank you for making it clear that the marriage was consummated without making us sit on the foot of the bed and watch!"

[Monya]

Lisa wrote: "Taylor wrote: "Perfectly worded, Nanci. I like how you said, romance has a physical element. I agree. I just don't want any explicit details when I read--and I don't add any when I write my books. ..."

Perfectly expressed, Lisa, and I couldn't agree more. All of us have different tolerances for what is considered "clean". My 'clean' historical The Pirate And The Puritan was not considered so by some readers, because the heroine was moved by the hero's proximity and a couple of the kisses were described intimately. That is absolutely fine with me, everyone is their own person with their own standards. Personally, I can't handle too much bad language and, it may go without saying on this discussion thread, I don't like graphic sex scenes where the plot is just a thread that pulls them together. The story is everything, in my personal opinion.

[Carla]

Yes, I definitely think the Twilight series is clean. Love and making love is a natural part of a relationship. Breaking Dawn shows the respect necessary in a committed relationship but yeah, the vampire-virgin idea is repulsive - cold and yuck! - but the message of love and respect is a great one.

Let's face it, young adult premarital sex is happening because our society is terrified of young couples getting divorced. The mixed-messages about sex are everywhere. Every movie has it. Teens read the Shades series. They are reading new adult erotica (Hopeless is #1 - it's about a teen whore and her exploits). So let's acknowledge that high school and college teens are doing it, but give them a better understanding that casual sex is empty and humiliating for the female. The guys need a good role model, too. Breaking Dawn and Hunger Games give that although the violence is so intense.

I just had quite the experience with writing my novels. I wrote coming-of-age about a teen actress. I pitched to publishers and got a bite immediately. But the publisher needed some changes: drop the abstinence, add more sex, add a rape, and drop the serenity prayer which is at the foundation of the series. Why? For commercial appeal. The publisher NEEDS a Hopeless - an erotica for teens.

So yes, given the future of what will be force fed to teens in the next 2 years, Twilight will be soooo G in comparison to what will be coming out.

[Carla]

Angela wrote: "I am finding this discussion fascinating because it's making me think about what I think is appropriate and whether or not my standards are a little skewed- which they may be. I was bothered more b..."

I think, like the rest of us, you've become desensitized to the violence in our stories.

[Leona]

Yes, this is an interesting discussion, though I didn't read every post. It has been a while since I read this book but I considered it clean. They were married after all and I don't remember any details being given.

[Lynne]

Amelia, the pragmatic idealist wrote: "To be honest, I have ALWAYS been flabbergasted at the amount of negative attention this book gets. It annoys me because I think there are far more books out there that should be put under the micro..."

I couldn't agree more, Amelia. I am a diehard Twilight fan, and I'm tired of all the negative crap it gets. I think it's a positive influence on teens. After all, one of the lead characters, a character who millions of women (no exaggeration) worldwide are in love with, insists on waiting until marriage for sex because he believes it's the right thing to do. I think that's a message I'd like all teens everywhere to read.

[Andrea]

I think this book may not be really clean, I mean I know they are married but I felt like maybe it was a little too graphic especially since it was from a first point of view and can make teens (who are the intended audience for the saga) feel things they shouldn't.

[Lynne]

All they do is go into the water and kiss and then they wake up in the morning. In the later scene they do mention ripped clothing, but again, not much more than that. Believe me, teens are reading far more explicit things than this. Many were disappointed that Breaking Dawn was so discreet. They wanted a blow by blow account of the wedding night.

[Sammie]

okay so I read this book in like fifth grade so then it totally freaked me out I by no means should have read it that young hell I gave my book away because I did not like it just because of the sex .but now that I am older I don't think it is that bad it doesn't go into detail about the sex really just the feelings surrounding it for the most part and that is fine I prefer that than vivid sexual situations and books of course and so I guess I do have to say it is clean for the most part nothing really dirty about it if anything I found it amusing in the movie .

[Tadiana ✩Night Owl☽]

I appreciate all the comments on this thread. It makes me think harder about what my own personal definition of a "clean" book is. So for what it's worth, here's what I'd define as clean for my own personal reading:
- the main character is not having premarital sex.
- any premarital relations of other characters is not described either in detail or in an approving way.
- postmarital sex is okay as long as it's not graphically described. (So for me, Breaking Dawn is clean.)
- detailed descriptions of kissing are fine (in fact, I prefer it that way) but no further intimacies.

Also, what is clean for me and what I'd consider clean enough for my 15 year old daughter to read are not the same thing. It's harder to describe what I'd consider clean enough to pass on to her, but I was (barely) okay with her reading Breaking Dawn (and I did make her wait a couple of years to read the Twilight series from the time she started bugging me to let her). That's about where I'd draw the line for her current age and maturity - I wouldn't want her reading anything more graphic than that.

[Kimberly]

Tadiana wrote: "I appreciate all the comments on this thread. It makes me think harder about what my own personal definition of a "clean" book is. So for what it's worth, here's what I'd define as clean for my ow..."

I'm with you on that! All of it. It's definitely clean by my standards, which are different for my teen daughters. I prefer passionate kissing in romance; nothing beyond that, but nothing without it either. What's romance without some passion? ;)

[Lynne]

Yes, I agree with both of you, Tadiana and Kimberley. I don't mind it being made clear that a married couple are going to have sex (kissing by a bed, for instance) but I want fade to black before we get there.
I'm having a few challenges over this very subject as I'm working on book three of my trilogy. Two characters in it get married and I had them clearly heading towards sex (with a by the bed kissing scene), but now I have a Christian school interested in looking at the trilogy for their 14 and up students. No way was my book graphic, but I even toned it down from that, moving them from the bedroom to the living room for the kissing. I do have a later scene when the husband is giving the wife breakfast in bed, but I hope that's more acceptable, as again, they just talk and kiss. I'm hoping *cross fingers* it will be okay.
It is a difficult line to walk. I want my book to appeal to a secular audience, but I don't want to turn off the young adult Christian audience while I'm at it. Ugh!

[Vanessa]

Amelia, the pragmatic idealist wrote: "To be honest, I have ALWAYS been flabbergasted at the amount of negative attention this book gets. It annoys me because I think there are far more books out there that should be put under the micro..."

Love this... I have a daughter - she asks questions. Better that she is prepared and knows what's out there than live in a bubble where relationships are perfect and nothing bad happens.

Yes, the scenes in Breaking Dawn grossed me out a bit... but hey, that's called life! LOL