Clean Romances discussion

Breaking Dawn (Twilight, #4)
This topic is about Breaking Dawn
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Group Concerns > How does Breaking Dawn count as a CLEAN ROMANCE??

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message 1: by Bookworm007 (new)

Bookworm007 How is Breaking Dawn considered a clean romance? Don't Bella and Edward make love in some very descriptive details...?


Laura  (Laura-Seagull) | 51 comments Bookworm007 wrote: "How is Breaking Dawn considered a clean romance? Don't Bella and Edward make love in some very descriptive details...?"
I guess it depends on your definition of "clean." There are no graphic details about their encounter and they are married....which means the act itself is ok for them. I think it is appropriate for adults, but my daughters are NOT reading the books until they are married.


message 3: by Joyce, Group Creator (new) - rated it 3 stars

Joyce | 592 comments Mod
What does everyone think about Breaking Dawn on our group bookshelf? Do you think it belongs there or not? Please chime in.


Jewel (jewela) | 178 comments There are no explicit scenes and no language. Though the story is more adult than YA, I still consider it a clean romance:-)


message 5: by Joyce, Group Creator (new) - rated it 3 stars

Joyce | 592 comments Mod
I'm willing to decide this question by group consensus. I've created a poll to decide whether to keep Breaking Dawn on our group bookshelf or not. I've made the voting anonymous, so don't be afraid to cast in your two-cents! Here's the link to the poll, or you can find it under Polls in our group's sidebar:

http://www.goodreads.com/poll/show/56...

I'll leave the poll open for a couple of weeks.


Tifferz | 81 comments Jewel wrote: "There are no explicit scenes and no language. Though the story is more adult than YA, I still consider it a clean romance:-)"

I agree Jewel!!!! Hope you are doing well my friend!


Jewel (jewela) | 178 comments Tiffany wrote: "Jewel wrote: "There are no explicit scenes and no language. Though the story is more adult than YA, I still consider it a clean romance:-)"

I agree Jewel!!!! Hope you are doing well my friend!"


Thanks, Tiffany! I'm doing great:-)


message 8: by Danielle (new)

Danielle Thorne (daniellethorne) | 161 comments I never got into Twilight--it's too cheesy for me. I did read the first book and I eventually see the movies on dvd. I think they should be considered clean--it does fall under clean guidelines although some parents don't want their teens to read them because it does have a consummated relationship. Even within a clean category, you're going to have people who have different levels of what's acceptable for them.


Nanci | 62 comments I considered it clean and in good taste. I will let my daughter read it when she is 16 or so and mature enough. The scenes in it are not graphic. The two are married and on a honeymoon which gives the kind of message I want my kids to understand. It's Ok to express physical love within the marriage bonds.


message 10: by Cindy (new)

Cindy Christiansen (DragonflyRomance) | 16 comments So Nanci, you are telling your daughter that it's okay to marry into an "abnormal, dsyfunctional family" who drink the blood of others? :)
We could all consider the book clean romance, but what about the other messages these books put out there?
Did you know there are cults that really do this sort of thing? http://aids.about.com/od/clinicaltria...
Just saying.


Jewel (jewela) | 178 comments Cindy A wrote: "So Nanci, you are telling your daughter that it's okay to marry into an "abnormal, dsyfunctional family" who drink the blood of others? :)
We could all consider the book clean romance, but what abo..."


That's pretty sad. I think people who give in to these kinds of things are emotionally disturbed or are missing something in their lives to keep them grounded. There are also many sites that talk about the Harry Potter series and the young people who are now members of Satanic cults and looking to learn witchcraft. While I have never been interested in the series, many who do read them or watch the movies are grounded enough in their home, family or life to not let anything sway them to degrade themselves that way.
In the end, it all comes down to the strength of our choices. I do enjoy the Twilight series, though, because as far as vampire series go, it is way more light-hearted than most of the series that are popular today:-)


message 12: by Joyce, Group Creator (new) - rated it 3 stars

Joyce | 592 comments Mod
I'll be honest here. I am personally not a big fan of the Twilight series. I was, however, a big fan of the Buffy the Vampire TV series, so it's obviously not an issue with vampires. :-) Like Jewel says, I think it comes down to having a good grounding "in their home, family or life". As challenging as it might be, I think parents need to be more involved than ever these days on previewing books, movies, TV, etc, because only they know what their own children can handle and when, and what they can't. Just my personal 2 cents. :-)


Tanya (tigersue) | 4 comments Personally if you are going to discount some of Lynn Kurland's books you better discount Breaking Dawn. Frankly I was uncomfortable with the violence and injuries that Bella suffered. That to me is more traumatic, married sex or not, than married passion in Lynn Kurland's books.


Heather (bighornforestgirl) | 1 comments Jewel wrote: "Cindy A wrote: "So Nanci, you are telling your daughter that it's okay to marry into an "abnormal, dsyfunctional family" who drink the blood of others? :)
We could all consider the book clean roman..."


I totally agree Jewel!!


message 15: by E.M. (new)

E.M. Tippetts (EMTippetts) | 13 comments You know, what I found disturbing about Breaking Dawn was the fact that Bella is severely beaten up when she consummates her marriage. Now, obviously this wasn't Stephenie Meyer advocating violence against women or anything like that. It's just part of the fictional world where vampires are so strong, but I would think that even so, having it be that painful would be tragic rather than enjoyable.


message 16: by Thalia (new) - added it

Thalia (thaliaanderson) The book had no explicit details; I read it when I was in about seventh grade or so and I don't remember there being anything that I objected to strongly, in wording. Plus, their sex wasn't immoral since they were married. That doesn't mean that you're allowed to have graphic details, but Meyer didn't have any details of the sort. Yes, it happened, but it wasn't dirty; it wasn't really to add sex appeal or something like that. It actually displayed sex as the natural part of life that it is.


message 17: by Camille (new)

Camille (CamLovesRaptors) | 12 comments It doesn't. It's horrible literature. Clean or unclean aside, it's just an awful series.


message 18: by Thalia (new) - added it

Thalia (thaliaanderson) That's kind of besides the point.

And that's a matter of opinion; some people still like the Twilight series, even if you don't.


message 19: by Joyce, Group Creator (new) - rated it 3 stars

Joyce | 592 comments Mod
Hmm, I've been busy and forgot to check in on our poll. Just did so, and it appears the "ayes" have it for keeping Breaking Dawn on our bookshelf. Feel free to continue discussing, but I'm now going to close the poll.

Thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts as well as your votes. We don't have to always agree in this group, as long as continue to disagree respectfully. :-)


Kimberly Krey | 9 comments Tiffany wrote: "Jewel wrote: "There are no explicit scenes and no language. Though the story is more adult than YA, I still consider it a clean romance:-)"

I agree Jewel!!!! Hope you are doing well my friend!"


I agree with Jewel and Tiffany as well. Nothing explicit - definitely clean romance in my opinion! :)


Mochaspresso  | 2 comments I have no problem with the Twilight books and I think that the sex scenes or references to sex in Breaking Dawn were tastefully done. Stephanie Meyer sets up a scene, builds emotion and then fades to black leaving the rest to your own imagination when it comes to that. There aren't many graphic or explicit details.

However, I think that when it comes to YA fiction, "clean romance" should mean no sex at all. Also, there are other references to sex in the books such as when Emmett teases Edward and Bella about their seemingly tame and boring sex life as compared to the rest of the Cullen couples. He even brags about how he and Rosalie destroy entire houses doing it. I'm not offended by that....but I also wouldn't call that "clean".


Katie | 7 comments I agree with Mocha Spresso. I also think the movies took quite a bit of liberty with the sensual content that was in the book. I don't remember ever having a moment in the book where Bella was in her underwear in front of Edward. Do you?


message 23: by Thalia (new) - added it

Thalia (thaliaanderson) Yes, the movie took wayyy too many liberties. But most movies do, unfortunately. :/
I wouldn't say this book is the cleanest of clean, but it's not full-out sex, "this is what's happening" writing. I read it when I was in...seventh grade, and while it wasn't fabulously wholesome, it at least added to the plot (with the baby) and wasn't spelled out.


message 24: by LAWonder10 (new)

LAWonder10 | 108 comments I agree Stephanie pushed a little too close with the sensuality even though they were married. I would not want my teen-age girls reading it but I did enjoy the book anyway. It still wasn't what I deemed R-rated -but close.
Other "clean" writers have pushed close to the R-rated line but are great writers and still stay "clean". I think the line has to be drawn between what is acceptable "clean" for youth and what is acceptable "clean" for adults.


message 25: by Rosalba (new)

Rosalba Camille wrote: "It doesn't. It's horrible literature. Clean or unclean aside, it's just an awful series."

allas, I agree with you, Camille.


Tressa (Wishful Endings) | 33 comments I agree with Mocha. I think the books are fairly clean, especially by today's standards, but by my standards I would like YA books to not include sex at all. The movie went overboard and I was really disappointed that they felt they had to fill in the blanks (specifically the two actors involved), but I can see this happening with other books that they will be making into movies as well. I also think anyone can become too involved in or obsessed in a series and this doesn't just include Twilight, and it doesn't have anything to do with the book, but with those individuals (if you understand what I mean).
With that said, I have read a couple of books that handled some different subject matter, such as someone staying a virgin before marriage, talking about rape, or someone with a seedy past who had changed their life and sex was obviously discussed as required by the story. So I think it can be a hard line as to what we all consider clean and that could depend upon the message and story.


message 27: by Suzan (last edited Feb 04, 2012 03:32PM) (new) - rated it 1 star

Suzan | 2 comments E.M. wrote: "You know, what I found disturbing about Breaking Dawn was the fact that Bella is severely beaten up when she consummates her marriage. Now, obviously this wasn't Stephenie Meyer advocating violence..."

I agree with E.M. It is because of this scene that I wont let my little sister read the Twilight series. The fact that she was all bruised after consummating the marriage. I felt it gave out mixed messages especially after the fact that Emily stayed with Sam after he slashed off half of her face. I thought, "Is this what fellow twilight fans want for their "dream man"?" And I stopped liking the series after that.

I have read a few vampire romances and, yes the vampire is physically much stronger than the human female, but she doesn't end up bruised up after sexual scenes, because he tries atleast to control his strength. Those are the types of non-Human males I like in litterature - the male wont harm the woman no matter how he loses control, because she is the love of his life.

Either way, clean or not, such violence, meant it or not, is a major no-go for my taste.


message 28: by Anne (new)

Anne Mikusinsi (abghostwriter) | 33 comments I have to agree what I've read of the books and seen of the movies, it's a horrible, badly written series. THAT said-there are millions of people who adore it. To each their own. I will Stephanie Myers favor that Edward and Bella do NOT have sex until they are married, which is a rarity in most romances, and I suppose, in that way clean.
As for the people who read these books, *as well as the HP* series, I have to agree that if you are grounded in faith and family and values, there's a less likely chance you will give in and indulge in either witchcraft or Satanic activities. I think saying that everyone who reads such books will, is rather an alarmist reaction.


message 29: by Kay (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kay (togood) | 8 comments i think it is a good clean read.

and really who hasn't woke up with bruises after a night (long night) of love making.

i dont see any reason why a teen girl should not be allowed to read these books.


message 30: by Melanie (new)

Melanie (melaniemorris) | 1 comments My 18 year old daughter was homeschooled and raised on great literature and she makes fun of the Twilight books because they are so terribly written. She looked into them and thought they were pathetic. I have to agree. They are silly books and as Stephen King has said, very poorly written. On the other hand, we loved the Harry Potter series and the way romantic relationships were treated in that YA series. My daughter has read plenty of R-rated literature classics but she demands real literature and not this goofy stuff. Bella is a wimp in more ways than one. We also love books like Jane Eyre that are well-written and things like Daphne Du Maurier's Jamaica Inn.


Jewel (jewela) | 178 comments Melanie wrote: "My 18 year old daughter was homeschooled and raised on great literature and she makes fun of the Twilight books because they are so terribly written. She looked into them and thought they were path..."

Hmmm, I home-school as well. We have six down and two to go:-) They have never been interested in Twilight or many of the popular series except for a small few, but because I am an author, they have learned to respect other authors, even when they read a series they don't particularly like, because authors can't please everyone. I've enjoyed the Twilight series and I admire how well Stephanie Meyer has done with. There are other series that I like a lot more, but I respect her achievements and her efforts to write a clean series. She is definitely not the greatest writer in the word, but neither am I, and I know I won't ever be. All an author can do is write and put their work out there, and hope someone will enjoy it:-)


Cindy Very well said, Jewel! I'm sure we have many books on the "Clean Romance" shelves that some people would disdain as not "real literature", but they've been placed there because someone found them entertaining and wanted to share their good reading experience with other romance-readers. I appreciate that we have a community here where we can share our likes and respect the choices of others - even when they like our dislikes!


message 33: by Darcy (new)

Darcy Flynn (darcyflynn) | 59 comments Hi Jewel,

I really appreciate your comments on Stephanie Meyer and the Twilight series. I'm not the greatest writer either but I write what I love and hope someone else likes it too! My sweet romance, Keeper Of My Heart, just released so I'm hopeful! :) Btw, I home schooled my son, too!

Darcy


Jewel (jewela) | 178 comments Darcy wrote: "Hi Jewel,

I really appreciate your comments on Stephanie Meyer and the Twilight series. I'm not the greatest writer either but I write what I love and hope someone else likes it too! My sweet roma..."


Awesome!!! Good luck with your book!


message 35: by Lani (new) - rated it 5 stars

Lani Young (LaniWendtYoung) | 3 comments I think its noteworthy and refreshing that such a main stream book with such a huge following - would have a male lead who consistently refuses to have sex with the girl he loves because he wants them to be married first. That makes it a book I would want my daughter and son to read. One day.


Angela (ajbrownies) | 5 comments I read the books and I considered them to be clean. I thought the writing was so well done that it FELT more intimate than the words actually said. She wasn't graphic and I think mostly just hinted at everything. I enjoy romance books but I won't keep reading if it embarrasses me and I didn't feel like that was an issue with the book.


Carmen DeSousa (Author_Carmen) | 14 comments Bookworm007 wrote: "How is Breaking Dawn considered a clean romance? Don't Bella and Edward make love in some very descriptive details...?"

I didn't feel as if Breaking Dawn crossed any sexual lines that would knock it out of a clean romance. The love scenes were not explicit in any manner; you just knew that they were going to make love and that they did make love, and they were between a married couple. The scenes left a lot to the imagination, as I believe all good fiction should.

The novel also touched on some major moral issues that I refuse to get into, but let's just say that Stephanie was not afraid to voice her opinion.

It always amazes me how we will allow violent acts on TV, but cringe at any type of sensuality.


Angela (ajbrownies) | 5 comments Bookwork007: I totally agree. What makes me laugh is discussions I see on other boards about for example- how an episode of Glee was offensive because they talked about God a lot but somehow the episode talking about teenage sex and how "they can't control their hormones" wasn't offensive. People have an odd sensitivity scale.


message 39: by LAWonder10 (new)

LAWonder10 | 108 comments I agree with both of you totally.


message 40: by JoAnne (last edited Mar 01, 2012 02:05PM) (new)

JoAnne McMaster (Any Good Book) | 7 comments Jewel wrote: "Cindy A wrote: "So Nanci, you are telling your daughter that it's okay to marry into an "abnormal, dsyfunctional family" who drink the blood of others? :)
We could all consider the book clean roman..."


I try to look at books as just that - books. I don't read the twilight series or anything like that (just not interested in vampires, werewolves, zombies, etc.), but then, I don't take books for reality. The problem comes when you have people dressing up like these characters and acting as if they're real. I like Sherlock Holmes, but I don't walk around in a deerstalker hat and quoting 'elementary' every time someone asks me a question.


Erika B. (SOS BOOKS) (ErikaB) | 23 comments Kayleen wrote: "i think it is a good clean read.

and really who hasn't woke up with bruises after a night (long night) of love making.

i dont see any reason why a teen girl should not be allowed to read these b..."


I literally laughed out loud to this comment! So funny! Thanks for the smile! I find this discussion fascinating because people have so many in depth levels of what they think is appropriate! :) That's why I love a lot of books but don't necessarily RECOMMEND a lot of books! :) I've noticed there is a divide in YA fiction that separates itself into YA and Mature YA which is nice! :) I guess I'll actually comment on the topic by saying I'm 22 and not a parent so I might not have a clue but I'd say it was clean because they were married. I sure hope people are MADLY in love with their spouses! It's the spice of life! :)


Jewel (jewela) | 178 comments Erika wrote: "Kayleen wrote: "i think it is a good clean read.

and really who hasn't woke up with bruises after a night (long night) of love making.

i dont see any reason why a teen girl should not be allowed..."


:-)


message 43: by Rachael (last edited Mar 02, 2012 08:17AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Rachael | 11 comments I think once you've read something like 'Mills & Boon' (not my personal taste but each to their own) Breaking Dawn becomes a primary school read!
I think this is an approriate 'Clean Reads' book.


message 44: by Kay (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kay (togood) | 8 comments it is true.. spice of life, that is what are husbands should be. it is not be easy waiting tell your married... i feel like the book showed struggles and the reward for doing so...


Angela (ajbrownies) | 5 comments I am finding this discussion fascinating because it's making me think about what I think is appropriate and whether or not my standards are a little skewed- which they may be. I was bothered more by the vampire getting his head ripped off in the first book than I was with the "love scenes" in this book. But I am also more likely to keep reading a book that is a little more violent than I am a book that has explicit sex in it... I don't know why.


Bethany Wiggins | 5 comments I thought the book was fine. I just watched the movie and was quite shocked at how graphic it was! (So glad I didn't see it in the theater with a whole lot of people I know, LOL.)


Amelia, the pragmatic idealist (aeimaginer12) | 45 comments To be honest, I have ALWAYS been flabbergasted at the amount of negative attention this book gets. It annoys me because I think there are far more books out there that should be put under the microscope, so to say, than this one.
Here's what I tell teens and their parents.

1) there is no "sex scene." Sex is implied (off the top of my head, two times), you know they do it, but Stephenie does NOT show you anything. You want a YA book that actually DOES have a sex scene? Look at Graceling.
And probably the most important thing...
2). THEY. ARE. MARRIED. They do not have sex until they are married, and once they are married...well, they're MARRIED. In my neck of the woods, we tell young people that there is a time and place for sex, and it is within MARRIAGE. Whatever your personal beliefs, nothing bad comes from waiting. And that's what the characters do. And you know, I understand the Twilight bashing, but at the end of the day, the couple in question were able to take notice of their feelings/desires and not act on them. They were able to wait. And you know? Perhaps teenagers need to read about a couple who didn't just give in "because it felt right" or whatever. Unlike 3/4 of the shows they see on TV where they are given the message that love = sex in any and all circumstances, it might be an eye-opener to read about characters who have the sense to wait until marriage. Yeah, they're still teens, but you know, it's a book.

If I had a teen daughter, I would most certainly read Breaking Dawn along with her. I really don't get all the content-driven hostility about this book.


message 48: by Kay (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kay (togood) | 8 comments I Think I love you...
you are so right to a "t".


As a side note to the they are still teens... My husband and I where no older than her...(my husband almost needed a note from his mommy) 10 years we are still madly in love! Some time it just works .


Teryn | 84 comments Amelia, the pragmatic idealist wrote: "To be honest, I have ALWAYS been flabbergasted at the amount of negative attention this book gets. It annoys me because I think there are far more books out there that should be put under the micro..."

I agree!


message 50: by Kim (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kim | 63 comments Amelia, the pragmatic idealist wrote: "To be honest, I have ALWAYS been flabbergasted at the amount of negative attention this book gets. It annoys me because I think there are far more books out there that should be put under the micro..."

Amelia I totally agree with every word you said as well! Very well said!!!


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