Ancient & Medieval Historical Fiction discussion
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eReaders vs Dead Trees
Richard wrote: "Lee wrote: "Wait, there's Amish in New Zealand?"Yes, but their arms really ache from all the rowing."
:D
Richard wrote: "Lee wrote: "Wait, there's Amish in New Zealand?"Yes, but their arms really ache from all the rowing."
Thats classic.haha
Don't you guys know we're all Amish in New Zealand, none of your Satan inspired technology here mate! Now I'm off to hitch up the horses to go into town for supplies. We don't eat our horses here they are too important for transportation.
Richard wrote: "Lee wrote: "Wait, there's Amish in New Zealand?"Yes, but their arms really ache from all the rowing."
And that's why we get so many rowing and kayaking medals at the Olympics.
Chris F wrote: "Don't you guys know we're all Amish in New Zealand, none of your Satan inspired technology here mate! Now I'm off to hitch up the horses to go into town for supplies. We don't eat our horses here t..."Oh yes indeed. And don't forget how cosy is is to read by candle light. ;)
Margaret wrote: "Chris F wrote: "Don't you guys know we're all Amish in New Zealand, none of your Satan inspired technology here mate! Now I'm off to hitch up the horses to go into town for supplies. We don't eat o..."I prefer using my antique oil lamp, it creates a better atmosphere for reading books on the ancient world.
Chris F wrote: "Margaret wrote: "Chris F wrote: "Don't you guys know we're all Amish in New Zealand, none of your Satan inspired technology here mate! Now I'm off to hitch up the horses to go into town for supplie..."*chuckles*
Yes, I was going to say when Margaret mentioned reading in NZ by candle light, I thought whale oil lamps were the more popular alternative over there these days. A new technology for a nation that likes to hunt in canoes.
Terri wrote: "Yes, I was going to say when Margaret mentioned reading in NZ by candle light, I thought whale oil lamps were the more popular alternative over there these days. A new technology for a nation that..."Whale oil is ecologically unfriendly. :p
No we don't hunt our whales anymore, paddling canoe loads of tourists out to watch them is much more lucrative and anyway all the olives we now grow produce plenty of oil for our lamps and salads.
I've been in one of those tourist canoes. Only it wasn't to see whales, it was to float around some rocks in a bay. :-)
Terri wrote: "I've been in one of those tourist canoes. Only it wasn't to see whales, it was to float around some rocks in a bay. :-)"Yeah we have great rocks over here, but the canoes to visit the whales are a lot more expensive.
You do have great rocks. And bays. We have our fair share of whales over here too. Not far from my doorstep. :-) http://www.whalewatching.com.au/
A very interesting article;go here to see the article on the net: http://www.afr.com/p/technology/resal...
Resale revolution for digital books and music
PUBLISHED: 10 Mar 2013 08:25:00 | UPDATED: 11 Mar 2013 12:06:31
by David Streitfeld
The paperback of “Fifty Shades of Grey” is exactly like the digital version except for this: If you hate the paperback, you can give it away or resell it. If you hate the e-book, you’re stuck with it.
The retailer’s button might say “buy now,” but you are in effect only renting an e-book; or an iTunes song; and your rights are severely limited. That has been the bedrock distinction between physical and electronic works since digital goods became widely available a decade ago.
That distinction is now under attack, both in the courts and the marketplace, and it could shake up the already beleaguered book and music industries. Amazon and Apple, the two biggest forces in electronic goods, are once again at the centre of the turmoil.
In late January, Amazon received a patent to set up an exchange for all sorts of digital material. The retailer would presumably earn a commission on each transaction, and consumers would surely see lower prices.
But a shudder went through publishers and media companies. Those who produce content might see their work devalued, just as they did when Amazon began selling secondhand books 13 years ago. The price on the Internet for many used books these days is a penny.
On Thursday, the US Patent and Trademark Office published Apple’s application for its own patent for a digital marketplace. Apple’s application outlines a system for allowing users to sell or give e-books, music, movies and software to each other by transferring files rather than reproducing them. Such a system would permit only one user to have a copy at any one time.
Meanwhile, a New York court is poised to rule on whether a startup that created a way for people to buy and sell iTunes songs is breaking copyright law. A victory for the company would mean that consumers would not need either Apple’s or Amazon’s exchange to resell their digital items. Electronic bazaars would spring up instantly.
“The technology to allow the resale of digital goods is now in place, and it will cause a dramatic upheaval,” said Bill Rosenblatt, president of GiantSteps, a technology consulting firm. “In the short term, it’s great for consumers. Over the long term, however, it could seriously reduce creators’ incentive to create.”
Scott Turow, the best-selling novelist and president of the Authors Guild, sees immediate peril in the prospect of a secondhand digital thrift shop. “The resale of e-books would send the price of new books crashing,” he said. “Who would want to be the sucker who buys the book at full price when a week later everyone else can buy it for a penny?”
He acknowledged it would be good for consumers; “until there were no more authors anymore.”
Library worries
Libraries, though, welcome the possibility of loosened restrictions on digital material.
“The vast majority of e-books are not available in your public library,” said Brandon Butler, director of public policy initiatives for the Association of Research Libraries. “That’s pathetic.”
He said 60 per cent of what the association’s 125 members buy was electronic, which meant sharp restrictions on use. Libraries cannot buy from Apple’s iTunes, he said. And so, for example, Pixar’s Oscar-winning soundtrack for the movie “Up” is not available in any public collection. An Apple spokesman confirmed this.
“If these things can’t be owned, who is going to make sure they exist going forward?” Butler asked. “Without substantial changes, we can’t do what libraries have always done, which is lend and preserve.”
For more than a century, the ability of consumers, secondhand bookstores and libraries to do whatever they wanted with a physical book has been enshrined in law. The key 1908 case involved a publisher that issued a novel with a warning that no one was allowed to sell it for less than $1. When Macy’s offered the book for 89 cents, the publisher sued.
That led to a landmark Supreme Court ruling limiting the copyright owner’s control to the first sale. After that, it was a free market.
Sales of digital material are considered licenses, which give consumers little or no ability to lend the item. The worry is that without such constraints digital goods could be infinitely reproduced while still in the possession of the original owner.
Amazon and Apple act
Both the Amazon and Apple systems aim to solve this problem. Amazon’s patent envisions a book or movie or song being kept in a customer’s personalised “data store.” When an item is no longer wanted, the user could sell or trade it to another user, an action that would automatically delete the item from the first user’s store.
The patent describes what is essentially a gigantic swap meet. Amazon’s 152 million active customers would maintain a list of desired secondhand digital objects (“Django Unchained”; Cheryl Strayed’s “Wild”) as well as a list of used digital objects that are “available for movement” (“Ghost Rider: Spirit of Vengeance”; Lance Armstrong’s autobiography).
An Amazon spokesman declined to comment on the patent, including how soon or even whether the digital marketplace would be set up. The patent does not make clear if such a bazaar would need the publishers’ permission.
The degree to which media companies are against secondhand digital marketplaces can be seen in the music industry’s hard line toward ReDigi, a Massachusetts startup that allows for the reselling of iTunes songs.
ReDigi took some pains to make its approach as friendly to the music companies as possible. For instance, any money gained from selling songs must be spent on new songs. And ReDigi says its system, like both Amazon’s and Apple’s, allows for only one copy of an electronic product to exist at any one moment.
Capitol Records nonetheless sued ReDigi for copyright infringement in a New York federal court, and asked the judge to shut the service down through a preliminary injunction. The judge declined. He is expected to rule on the merits of the case shortly.
An Apple spokesman did not immediately return a message seeking comment on the company’s patent application, which was first reported on Apple Insider. Apple, which has not sued ReDigi, declined to comment on the court case.
John Ossenmacher, ReDigi’s chief executive, said he was heartened by Amazon’s resale patent.
“Amazon is pretty fearless, which bodes well for the consumers of digital goods.” And, he added, for Amazon itself. “What better value to give an Amazon customer than to say, ‘Buy your book here and then later you can resell it’? You can’t do that with Barnes & Noble’s Nook.”
Free ride for Silicon Valley
Robert Levine, author of “Free Ride,” an account of how Silicon Valley rose to power by plundering the traditional media companies, said he believed there was a cultural imperative to loosen the restrictions on digital entertainment; but not too much.
Before the Internet, he pointed out, there was little controversy over secondhand stores for books and music. “It never threatened the broader market because it simply wasn’t that efficient,” he said. “You couldn’t always find the book or CD you were looking for.”
Amazon, which caused an uproar with writers and publishers when it started selling used books in 2000, made it as easy as clicking a button. “Digital resale would change it even more,” Levine said.
Markets usually move toward a solution both sides can live with, he noted. “But that happens slowly, and in the meantime we’re in for one hell of a fight.”
Interesting article, Terri, thanks for posting.As both a reader and a writer, that's an intriguing prospect, although it doesn't make a great deal of sense to me.
You pay a discounted price for a second hand book because the spine is damaged and the corners have been folded over and someone has rubbed jam into page 34. Why pay a discounted price for a computer file which by definition has to be byte for byte an exact replica of the original? That's essentially two completely disparate prices for exactly the same thing. In fact, not even 'essentially'. It just is two prices for the same thing.
The only difference, I believe, is that second hand e-books wouldn't be backed up. I read this somewhere else and can't vouch for the accuracy of it, but at the moment if you buy a Kindle book and then lose your Kindle, you can buy a new one and the e-book will be restored to it from Amazon. You won't be able to do this with second hand books (apparently). Although this isn't really a problem as you could just back the book up to your PC anyway.
Personally, I won't be buying e-books for the same reason that I won't download pirated e-books. I believe that a writer has the right to be paid for their hard work (especially me).
That said, it's always tempting to cry 'the end is nigh' whenever any new innovation gets developed. They said it about music when mp3's came along and cinema when VHS arrived. So Scott Turow is probably over-reacting when he says there aren't going to be any authors any more, but it's equally true that this is without doubt going to hit writers where it hurts, right in the pocket.
You are welcome. I thought it would be of great interest to many members. It is a thought provoking article.
Richard wrote: " I believe that a writer has the right to be paid for their hard work (especially me)..."Yes, very interesting article.
According to Amazon (a few days ago), 80% of all downloaded ebooks are "freebies". (And many of them will never be read.)
I would love to have the option to give away ebooks I've purchased and read. Currently we can "loan" them one time...for only 2 weeks, but only if the author has enabled the "loan feature". (The last time I checked anyway.)
I don't think I've ever commented on this thread, but I believe I am having an epiphany. I'm an avid Bernard Cornwell fan and all of my Cornwell novels are hard copy (and look great in my library!). Like almost everyone on Goodreads, I LOVE books, especially surrounding me in my office. I bought the hard copy of 1356 as soon as it came out in the US and have been trying to read it (it's a great story, but that's not the problem). The problem is that I've been reading primarily on kindle for the past year -- and I think I am hooked. Maybe it's because my eyesight's going, or because I read a lot at night and love the fact that the backlight on a kindle fire does not wake my spouse. So, I am about to spend nearly $15 (an outrageous sum for an ebook, IMO) on the kindle version of 1356 so I can finish the novel. The price pains me, but I am going to do it. Which, I guess, puts me fully in the eReader camp. I never thought I'd be there, but here I am.
$15 for an ebook!!!!! Ouch!!
No kidding! This is testing me! I think ebooks should be between $4 to $6 dollars. I normally start wavering around $7, but I adore Bernard Cornwell (I think this one is priced high because the novel is so new; either that, or Harper Collins doesn't want anyone to buy the ebook (they are selling the hard copy on Amazon for $18 now)). I did the same thing for George R.R. Martin's A Clash of King's , and I own all of that series in hard copy too. But the ebook was more in the $7 range, so I bought it.
I'm one of those guys who, if I like the book, I like to give it away. If I like it a lot, I buy another copy or two and pass them on as well. I've already noticed how that is not exactly do-able with an ebook. That's one of the reasons why I still like paper books.I'm also the kind of guy who has a bunch of bookshelves at home stacked double-thick with old books. I just counted eight books on my nightstand and dresser that I haven't finnished, and I still can't find one that I have been working on for about two years, off and on, everythime I can find it. Maybe having all this stuff in digital form wouldn't be so bad. However, I'm still not one to trust the "cloud", and I have as much trouble with my thumb-drives as I do with my paper books, so I think I'll just hold back and wait to see what happens with this ongoing "digital" revolution. It will be interesting to see where it all ends up.
Robert wrote: "Maybe having all this stuff in digital form wouldn't be so bad. However, I'm still not one to trust the "cloud", and I have as much trouble with my thumb-drives as I do with my paper books,..."lol. Funny! :)
Joseph wrote: "No kidding! This is testing me! I think ebooks should be between $4 to $6 dollars. I normally start wavering around $7, but I adore Bernard Cornwell (I think this one is priced high because the nov..."I don't even like spending that much on a paper book ($15..and the Australian dollar is worth about the same as the USD). These days on my book buying budget I like to stay close to the $10 range for paper books.
This means I don't have the luxury of buying the edition I prefer (the large paperback or hardback) and I have to settle for the smaller paperbacks.
That's why I have not read 1356 yet. I own the other three in the series/formerly trilogy, but I need to wait for the book price to come down. Right now it is as you say Joseph, new release of a bestselling author. the prices are still in the 'Introductory Price' phase.
Of course, another argument in favor of paper books is the way some non-fiction works can change their stories over the years. For instance, I have a collection of dictionaries with the oldest dating back to the late 1800s. It is very interesting to see how some words have completely flipped their meanings around. One of my favorites is "mistress", which was a title of great respect for a woman up until the 1920s. I also have books that pre-date the second World War and the Cold War; they have a very different outlook on the world than what modern literature paints. Can you put a first-edition of "Madame Curie" next to the newest, revised edition on your Kindle? I wonder...
Terri wrote: "Joseph wrote: "No kidding! This is testing me! I think ebooks should be between $4 to $6 dollars. I normally start wavering around $7, but I adore Bernard Cornwell (I think this one is priced high ..."I hope the pricing etiquete gets ironed out, too. I first priced my books at $2.99 because that was the lowest Amazon would let me go. The idea was that, because I was writing for teenage boys, I needed to price for their budget. After a while I realized that kids aren't the ones buying books for their e-readers. They are buying music and apps, but books? That's what adults use the e-reader for.
A few months ago somebody told me that a low-priced book makes it look like junk. So I raised my prices by a few dollars. I felt terrible, because I had already generated interest and it felt like I was pulling a bait-and-switch on all the people who had put it on their TBR but hadn't bought it yet. I hope that wasn't the gauche thing to do. We indie writers don't have agents and publishers or the-Emily-Post-of-the-internet to help us navigate these waters.
Is it time to mention the Amish again? Hearse and Buggy by Laura Bradford. Not to be confused with the TV programme Banshee!
When an ebook is DRM-free (Digital Rights Management) we can transfer freely between devices, right? I'm a supporter of DRM-free. One reason I buy my indies at Smashwords over Amazon, if they're in both. Smashwords also distributes them DRM-free into the big shops.
Additional. Though Smashwords has a 'trust-people' policy and a license that says, "this ebook is licensed for your personal use only." So I wouldn't lend them or give them on -- that's to steal a measly amount out of the author's pocket. Except for the free ones, which have a license, "share freely". And you can, without DRM.
When an ebook is uploaded to Amazon the author/publisher is given the option to select whether or not to make it DRM-free. Once chosen (yea or nay) the option cannot be undone.
Having come to grips with this article overnight... 1st, I can't see this going ahead so I won't work up a passion. But 2nd, how can an author ever earn, if an ebook can be onsold indefinitely, at profits to the author of $1.73? As Richard points out, an ebook cannot be secondhand in the way of a paperback, sold cheap with wear. So it's simply a case of the purchaser making money on the next sale, instead of the author. Isn't it?
There are organisations fighting to lower ebook prices, and to expand ebooks in libraries. To solve the issues mentioned, without this.
Chris F wrote: "Is it time to mention the Amish again? Hearse and Buggy by Laura Bradford. Not to be confused with the TV programme Banshee!"hahaha!! Nice!
Bryn wrote: "Having come to grips with this article overnight... 1st, I can't see this going ahead so I won't work up a passion. But 2nd, how can an author ever earn, if an ebook can be onsold indefinitely, at ..."I think this is where the old nut comes in that authors should write for pleasure and to make their input costs back, not write to make money.
If authors write to make money then they are already losing.
I hope authors never give up the aim to part-support themselves.
Bryn wrote: "When an ebook is DRM-free (Digital Rights Management) we can transfer freely between devices, right? I'm a supporter of DRM-free. One reason I buy my indies at Smashwords over Amazon, if they're in..."I have to confess that I don't understand the objections to DRM. Granted, there are ways to get round it so the efficacy of it is moot, but in principle it's a system to stop people stealing books. That's got to be a good thing, surely?
Before I looked into it I thought that it allowed you to only have one copy of an ebook, which would be useless. But Amazon's DRM allows you to own - if memory serves - 6 copies. Who needs 7 copies of an e-book?
Even if you have a Kindle and both a desktop and laptop with the Kindle app on, and mobile phones for personal and work use both with Kindle apps on, and an iPad with Kindle on, that's still only 6 copies. I would doubt anybody would need their e-books on all these devices.
So given that Amazon's DRM doesn't limit you in any practical sense, what's the objection to it? Of course, I freely admit that I could be missing something here.
@Richard I like what Smashwords has to say on DRM + piracy, but further than that I'm not the one to ask. Smashwords an advocate for both readers and authors.
I had a thought last night. I was looking at the gorgeous new book that came in the mail. Smelling all new, the pages crisp and tightly packed, the cover slightly waxy in feel with some pretty metallic embossing and I realised why it is that I don't like to read ebooks.
I love books first, like reading second.
My hobby started with loving books. The look and feel of them. Reading came second. That's why I have many hundreds of books unread in my private library. Because my first love is being surrounded by books, touching them, seeing them. Many I will never even read as I hqve lost interest in what's inside the books, but I will continue to enjoy seeing and owning that book.
So that's it. In a nut shell. I love books first. Reading second. :-) I figured it out.
I think I'm probably the same way. Although, I'm still delusional enough to think I will eventually read them all. My parents were over the other day when a book arrived. I was all excited, and my father looked at my mum and said "It's like she's never received a book in the mail before."
I realised at that moment that I would never be as excited about a transfer of bytes.
D wrote: " I realised at that moment that I would never be as excited about a transfer of bytes. ..."Amen to that!
My copy of Rome: The Eagle of the Twelfth arrived.
Hubby had collected the mail and came home and I spotted the parcel in his hand and I was like "squee! Is that a present for me from The Book Depository? Yay"
I ripped into it and straight away started stroking the cover and ohhing and ahhing over the cover design. Then opened it to smell the pages and flick them. I spent a good few minutes acquainting myself with it. Making my husband smell it to. It's the 'new car smell' I love about new books and he likes it too. Then I carried it lovingly to a bookcase and slid it in next to the first two books in the series and gave a little gurgle of contentment that the spines look so good next to each other.
I am simply not going to get that, as you say, by downloading bytes.
I am in both camps of this issue. I love reading ANY edition of a book. And I am participating in this discussion using my NOOK tablet. I currently have over 100 titles on this device, plus dozens of free samples for me to peruse and keep as long as I want. Try that in a bookstore: Can I take the first few pages home for awhile? I think I like that feature best about the NOOK. Even when bookstores are closed, I can get a new book right away in the e-version. From the samples, tho’ I can decide if the book is something I must have and it doesn’t have to be impulse. I can take as much time as I want. Most of the physical books I buy now are non-fiction, it is easier to flip around with footnotes. But I did just shell out about $15 for an e-version of Once and Future King, bringing my collection to 3 paperbacks, 2 hardcovers and now the e-version. It is also nice to have a lighter version entire Mort d’Arthur. The whole thing along with about hundred other titles. Blessings to Project Gutenburg! I am addicted. Yet I love going into a true used bookstore. Nothing like that!! Just bear in mind, if you buy used the writer gets nothing from that sale. Only the original sale earns royalties for the author. I get a higher royalty when an e-copy sells than when a trade paperback edition sells.
Terri wrote: "D wrote: " I realised at that moment that I would never be as excited about a transfer of bytes. ..."Amen to that!
My copy of Rome: The Eagle of the Twelfth arrived.
Hubby had collected the m..."
Wow, I think we might be at about the same level of book fetishism.
And I have and USE three different eReaders. My first, I got in 2005--the old Franklin/eBookwise reader. What a great workhorse!! No longer available, so yes I will keep mine for the history. Love the backlight. Loved that it was just for reading and very easy to use.Device 2: Sony PRS 700. Great deal to get. Sony should have waited with some of that technology. Not a perfect device. But I like the size and weight, especially with the leather cover. I feel like I have a print book in my hand.
My NOOK tablet? I would have been an idiot if I had not bought it when I had the chance for an employee deal--daughter works @ Barnes and Noble. And since I am published electronically, I do need to keep up.
There is a lot I love about eReaders and eBooks.
Last time I got a physical copy of a book in the mail, (week ago) yes I was glad to see, but wound up disappointed because the dustjacket did not meet up with original description. Had to send it back.
Nate wrote: " Wow, I think we might be at about the same level of book fetishism. ..."Good to know I don't have to be secretive about my book fetish. That there are other sufferers out there.
Debra wrote: "I am in both camps of this issue. I love reading ANY edition of a book. And I am participating in this discussion using my NOOK tablet. I currently have over 100 titles on this device, plus doze..."I look at the samples online. The 'look inside' or 'read an excerpt' that you can click on with most books I look at on Amazon or 'other'.
I own a Tablet (am on it now), but I rarely download samples these days due to that look inside inside feature. Before I buy real books I generally check the sample out online first.
Although I read almost exclusively on my Kindle nowadays, strangely I don't like using the sample feature. When my "book" "arrives" and I "open" it for the first time, I want to be discovering it for the first time. For the same reason I rarely read the blurb on the back of a book. I want the whole thing to be a surprise.
Terri wrote: "I had a thought last night. I was looking at the gorgeous new book that came in the mail. Smelling all new, the pages crisp and tightly packed, the cover slightly waxy in feel with some pretty met..."
I guess I am the opposite. I am a reader 1st and foremost. I can remember reading the paper at breakfast always, and when I finished if i was still eating, or drinking my coffee, I was not past the reading on cereal boxes. Books or e-books as long as I can read I am happy.
Oh, my! Yes. I have read cereal boxes, shampoo and conditioner bottles, air freshener cans. If it has words, I'll read it.
I also fall on the reading end of our spectrum. I too will read ingredient lists and cereal boxes and bathroom cleaner bottles. I sometimes think it's what's kept me from going mad long ago. When I start thinking it frightens people. lol
Ancient & Medieval Historical Fiction
Books mentioned in this topic
Dreaming the Eagle (other topics)Lord of the Silver Bow (other topics)
My Brilliant Friend (other topics)
Warriors of the Storm (other topics)
NOS4A2 (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Ben Pastor (other topics)Robert Low (other topics)
China Miéville (other topics)
Patrick O'Brian (other topics)
Richard K. Morgan (other topics)
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Thanks Bryn. Headed for the bookstore.