eReaders vs Dead Trees

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

Roo Seth Lord...lol..

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

Speaking of maps. I also hear/see a lot of people complain because ebooks, especially Kindle, don't have the maps and/or photos that the paper books have.
That would frustrate the heck out of me. Seeing as I read a fair bit of history non fiction and military non fiction, maps and photos are hugely important to me.

[Linda]

With feather duster in hand I am digging out my scrolls for my reading pleasure.

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

Lol. What Luddite. :-)

[Linda]

I thought of that all by myself. My grandson and I are searching for cheat codes for Skyrim and Deadra Hearts. Poor little fellow. Think about it. He is depending on ME and this NOOK to find something I have never heard of and wouldn't know it if I found it. Grandy to the rescue. It took him all of two minutes to find all the codes and print them in duplicate on his PC. Change of subject: what I don't like about my e- reader is to handily get to maps, indices, allusions to earlier comments and more. But, without this Nook, I would never joined a group of readers who I count as friends. I had no idea that my PC had such capability. I wouldn'd have missed this contact with my e-friends for the world.

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

That's nice, Linda.
I have to admit. I am certainly glad I discovered GR back in 2009. It has exposed me to so many great books and great people.

[Lee]

Yep, that is nice.

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

After my recent 'first time' reading an eBook, I discovered an unforseen issue.
When I read real books - real books being paper books - I like to see where I am at as I progress through the book.
With the eBook the page number at the bottom meant nothing to me and it felt like the book was a bottomless pit.
It was a fairly enjoyable book, so it wasn't that I disliked it, it was just that when I hold a real book I can get a sense of where I am at. Have a sense of satisfaction and achievement when I reach 1/4 way through, 1/2 way through, 1/4 still to go.

The eBook just felt like I was turning page after page with no tangible sense of how close the end was getting or how far I had gotten.

It really put me off eBooks.
When I am reading a real book, I enjoy the ritual of finishing a reading section at a chapter or a break, putting in one of fancy bookmarks, closing it and looking at where in the novel my bookmark falls.

I missed this ritual when I read the eBook.
The eBook I read was over 400. I wonder what I am going to be like on my next book, which will be an eBook buddy read with a friend of a book that is 1000 pages.

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

You're welcome, Chris. :)
I was hoping that eBooks would sweep me off my feet, but so far it has been a major fizzer.
I'll read one every now and then if it is the only way or it came free as an eBook or it is the cheapest way to read a book I need to read.
Can't see myself ever getting right into them. It would seem that I simply enjoy too many other aspects of books than just the words on the page.

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

Here you are Chris. Looks interesting!

Walking It Off: A Veteran's Chronicle of War and Wilderness

[Andrew]

I am reading a paper book now with mixed feelings. It's Evelyn Waugh's Decline and Fall/A Handful of Dust combo edition, and the pages are so fragile, I'm afraid to open it fully and see pages like leaves fluttering to the ground.

I'd like to have it in ebook form, but books I really love I want to see nicely displayed on the shelves of my bookcases.

[Lee]

Terri wrote: "After my recent 'first time' reading an eBook, I discovered an unforseen issue.
When I read real books - real books being paper books - I like to see where I am at as I progress through the book.
..."

Really? That would annoy me too. My Sony says "Page 134 of 348" or whatever.

[Lee]

Terri wrote: "You're welcome, Chris. :)
I was hoping that eBooks would sweep me off my feet, but so far it has been a major fizzer.
I'll read one every now and then if it is the only way or it came free as an ..."

Yep, you know that's how I feel too!

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

Lee wrote: "Really? That would annoy me too. My Sony says "Page 134 of 348" or whatever. .."

If I tap the screen or turn a page I see the page progression number, eg 134 of 348, but that doesn't give me the satisfaction that I get by holding the actual book in my hand and feeling my progress...if that makes sense. A tangible and tactile way of knowing where I am in a book.

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

Andrew wrote: "I am reading a paper book now with mixed feelings. It's Evelyn Waugh's Decline and Fall/A Handful of Dust combo edition, and the pages are so fragile, I'm afraid to open it fully and see pages like..."

Hi Andrew,
I had this with a brand new book last week. Not that I was worried that the pages would come out, but the paper was quite thin and weak. Like a thin recycled paper. It was really easy to rip them. I did it once a little and had to be careful from then on...luckily I owned it.

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

Lee wrote: "Yep, you know that's how I feel too! ..."

It is the curse of the bibliophile. :)

[Lee]

Terri wrote: "Lee wrote: "Really? That would annoy me too. My Sony says "Page 134 of 348" or whatever. .."

If I tap the screen or turn a page I see the page progression number, eg 134 of 348, but that doesn't g..."

OK, I get you, I do know how you feel. The Sony display is at least a constant though, rather than a "tap to see".

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

I was reading Chris' statistics post in the Random Thoughts thread and I had a random thought that might be better suited to this thread...

This stat was posted;

What genres/categories are people buying?
55% Popular fiction
10% Religious nonfiction
9% Cooking/Crafts

The 10% religious non fiction. I suppose some would consider the bible non fiction and therefore it falls into this 10%.

That got me thinking. I wonder how many are getting their bibles as an eBook these days instead of buying a paper bible.
I suppose those who need to have a bible with them at all times would have both an eBook for out and about, and a paper Bible for home.
How many bible sales, considering the apparent frenzied eReader buying of the 2011 closing quarter and the 2012 first quarter, are buying only electronic bibles where once these customers would have bought a paper bible.

[Lee]

Terri wrote: "I was reading Chris' statistics post in the Random Thoughts thread and I had a random thought that might be better suited to this thread...

This stat was posted;

What genres/categories are people..."

I assume those are US figures? It seems astoundingly high otherwise.

[Lee]

Chris wrote: "Yes, I believe the list was for USA book sales. And I too would challenge the Religious NF sales. If the sales figures were total Christian books, the 10% is more likely, or possibly too low. Ch..."

I'm not sure I was aware that there was such a thing as Christian fiction but I can't say that I'm surprised.

[Lee]

Chris wrote: "Lee,

I just did a quick keyword look at the regional catalog. About 3,200 entries for "Christian Fiction"
After seeing "Hans Christian Andersen" and C S Lewis, I switched to search some authors I..."

Thanks Chris. I do think it's that mixture of blind evangelism and brash consumerism, so vocal in parts of USA, that marks one of the biggest differences from Europe.

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

Chris wrote: "Thanks, Lee, An interesting observation " ... mixture of blind evangelism and brash consumerism ..." Does Europe have any comparable social juxtapositions? ..."

Hope you guys don't mind me butting into the convo. :)

I'd have to say, in answer to that question posed to Lee, that as far as Western Culture is concerned, no. I don't believe any other country but America has that heady combination of strong religion and consumerism.
If we included the Middle east, then I would say the Mid East is the only one that can come close to the U.S on religious zeal, but they fall down in the consumerism department.

To be honest, it wasn't until I started interacting in the social element of Goodreads that I realised how strongly religious America is. It surprised me, as religion, Christianity in particular, has never been as prevalent in my culture. Of course religion is here, and we have evangelical elements, although the majority of those evangelical elements are mass marketed evangelism coming out of the U.S.

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

Politics and religion should never mix in my opinion. :)
Politics needs decision making based on neutrality, not an individuals interpretation of religious truths.

But hey, that is just my opinion. lol. I'll go put my head back in a book and shutup. :D

[Lee]

Terri wrote: "Politics and religion should never mix in my opinion. :)
Politics needs decision making based on neutrality, not an individuals interpretation of religious truths.

But hey, that is just my opinion..."

Couldn't agree more, and thanks for butting in Terri. I read Chris's comment last night before going to bed and decided to sleep on it. The evangelism and consumerism mix? No, not in Europe, but Chris's question was broader than that and referred to "social juxtapositions". I'm sure there must be some and I feel they should be obvious but I just can't think of what they might be right now. Perhaps it needs an outsider's perspective to see them clearly for what they are?

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

Oh yes, I reread it just now. I replied early this morning so wasn't all that together.

I can't think of any comparable juxtapositions either.
Except perhaps for Russia. They have a few although I am not sure they are quite as in your face as the evangelism/consumerism parallel.
Russian liberalism and emerging western democracy.

That's all I got in Europe.

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

I can actually understand peoples complete love of ebooks now. No! Don't jump to conclusions fellow A&Mers. I definitely love my dead trees and while I will read an ebook, I don't like it....
It is digital magazines that have delivered me my epiphany.

I rarely buy magazines anymore. They are too expensive and I am not addicted enough to them to buy despite their hefty price tag. And I have always had this issue with the waste factor. I do recylce them into the garden, but they cost as much as a small paperback most of the time and I can't stomach spending that much on a throw away item.

A couple days ago I discovered the Zinio app on my Tablet. I knew it was there but I though it was just another ebook reader. I had never opened it to see that it was a digital magazine subscription website.

I feel like I have found a pot of gold. I never have to buy a magazine again and I can subscribe to all the magazines I love to read, but refuse to buy. Interior design, fashion and cooking mags. And for a third the price.
I am stoked. :-)

The reason I can be into digital mags and not digital books is I have no attachment or sentimentality towards magazines. They are purely boredom killers. Whereas books in paper form are a hundred times more things to me than that.

I like the feel of newspapers though and won't swap newspapers for digital ones. But magazines? Bring it on. :-)

[Dawn]

They are better in digital 'cause the staples don't mess up the center pages too. I get the Juxtapoz magazine and it's fabulous not getting the line down the center of all the double art pages.

[Bobby]

I was given a Kindle for Christmas a few years ago by the wife so I HAD to like it. I was all "dead trees" up until then. At the time, the downside for me was not being able to give books to my sister-in-law, with whom I had been trading for years. Now the Kindle allows me to at least "loan" some titles to her since she also purchased a Kindle but the "loan" list is very limited.
The upside for me was that I travel extensively and in the past I always had to carry several books so I would have something to read when one book was finished. The Kindle has condensed that to hardly anything.
So I have found a sense of symbiosis amongst my ebook and dead trees and for now that works for me.

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

Dawn wrote: "They are better in digital 'cause the staples don't mess up the center pages too. I get the Juxtapoz magazine and it's fabulous not getting the line down the center of all the double art pages."


They also look good on the tablet (or laptop), most especially the tablet because of the HD screen. The pictures are really glossy and vibrant. Lifelike even.
Art must look good on a good laptop or tablet screen.

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

Hi Bobby,
I think that is the biggest positive to eReaders. For travel. Whether it is in the military, holidaying, for work or even travelling to and from work on public transport (yuck), eReaders have truly found their niche.
I would still opt for paperbooks where I could..eg; on holiday I would take a paper book or two and have ebooks handy on my tablet.

[[deleted user]]

I found this thread and thought I'd step in. I have books selling on Kindle, and I don't have a Kindle, myself. I really do prefer 'hard copy' books, but I decided fourteen years ago that ebooks were the wave of the future and looked into them. Unfortunately, they (or the ones I was looking at) were electronic files; they didn't have the 'kindle' type technology.

I've read things on Kindle and I like the fact that you can pack for a trip and instead of lugging five heavy books around (I'd pack, for example:


Watership Down


The Good Companions


The Hunt for Red October

and one of the volumes of The Lord of the Rings


An eReader is lighter.

But then we have this scenario, which I posted elsewhere:

He sat back, eyed the man kneeling before him. "And what is this?" he asked.

"A gift from the far lands of the barbarians, sire," the man said.

"This? What is it?"

"It is called a 'Kindle', sire. We can fit the archives of all the palaces and temples within it."

"Hm..." Ramesses sat back and turned the straight-sided oblong over in his hands. He finally handed it back to the man. "Take it away."

"But sire-! The sheer size of what it can contain--!"

Ramesses nodded to his fan-bearers, who began their motion again. "I admit that the size is certainly impressive," he said. "But I can't help wondering what will happen if I decide I wish to read while bathing in my garden pond and a clumsy servant drops this - this kindle - into the water. Aside, of course, from getting electrocuted-" He turned to the Crown Prince with a thoughtful frown. "I forgot to ask The Author: Do we know about electrocution now?"

The Crown Prince shrugged. "I can ask her, Sire."

Ramesses flicked his fingers. "No matter," he said. "The main problem would be that the libraries of all Egypt would be destroyed in my bath. I can't take responsibility for that. I would prefer to leave those honors to Justinian. Take it away and bring me Sun Tzu's volume..."

[Bobby]

Diana wrote: "I found this thread and thought I'd step in. I have books selling on Kindle, and I don't have a Kindle, myself. I really do prefer 'hard copy' books, but I decided fourteen years ago that ebooks ..."

Haha...that's great. Just picked up "Watership Down" for my 10 year old who reads at a high school level.

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

Waterhip Down *wipes tear* a personal favourite of my childhood.

Nice sketch, Diana. Thanks for the laugh. :-)

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

I mentioned recently that I was now a convert to digital magazines over paper ones.

I noticed that some of these magazines are running ads from the Magazine publishing houses talking about the threat of digital magazines taking over completely from paper.

Their analogy to say it would never happen???

Did Instant coffee replace ground coffee?

In comparison to our discussions on books vs ebooks, I think there is something to that.
Books vs eBooks..there are always going to be people who prefer substance over a quick fix. And others who prefer the trouble free instant coffee to the slower ground coffee option.
Whatever our preference, there is a place in our lives for both.

[Rob]

I was wondering about how ecologically friendly your e-reader might be compared to paper books.

1. An e-reader no doubt uses a lot of energy (and probably has some weird/rare precious metals inside) in its initial production. And just how long will it last? 5,7, 10 years before it's discarded/obsolete.

Paper books can be produced with relatively small amounts of energy (but I believe the paper-making process itself uses a huge amount of water). They generally have a much longer longer shelf-life than an e-reader.

2. Where e-readers win hands down is when it comes to transport - paper books are heavy and a huge amount of fossil fuel mut be burnt distributing them around the planet.

3. However, e-reader systems (like Amazon's) use massive server 'farms' to store all this electronic data - these consume vast amounts of energy 24/7.

4. When it comes to recycling at the end of a book's or e-reader's life, it's got to be a lot less energy intensive to recycle paper. Does anyone know if any e-readers claim to be largely recyclable?

What do you think?

[Lee]

Some good questions there Rob. The short answer seems to be that nobody knows which is greener (you wouldn't have thought it would be that hard to calculate if that was your thing, would you? Maybe that just demonstrates that it's not my area of expertise though).

This is a good source of information on the subject: http://www.ecolibris.net/ebooks.asp

[Robin]

Rob wrote: "I was wondering about how ecologically friendly your e-reader might be compared to paper books.

1. An e-reader no doubt uses a lot of energy (and probably has some weird/rare precious metals ins..."

Actually, eInk readers only use a very small amount of energy, that's why their batteries last so much longer than backlit screens. Of course that's a moot point if your ereader is a tablet but mine is not.

It mostly comes down to what the carbon footprint is to produce one device versus the carbon footprint to produce the amount of books you could read with the device (thousands over the course of however many years). Last I heard, it was still up for debate - most articles I find now are comparing print books to the iPad and not taking eInk devices into consideration.

[Lee]

Robin wrote: "Last I heard, it was still up for debate - most articles I find now are comparing print books to the iPad and not taking eInk devices into consideration. "

I do find that shift puzzling (the mass movement back towards backlit coloured screens).

[Benjamin]

I couldnt live without my kindles. I havent bought a dtb in like many years.

[Lee]

Benjamin wrote: "I couldnt live without my kindles. I havent bought a dtb in like many years."

Hmmm... A riddle... What's 'like many years' but is not many years? Well, you've certainly stumped me.

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

The riddle I see is dtb. Ben, what's dtb?

Oh wait..dead tree book...I got it! :)

[Margaret, Sherlockian Sheila]

Got to say that I love my Kindle. It's a boon to me when travelling. One Kindle that can carry around 3500 books vs trying to shove 10 paperbacks in my carry on luggage. :)

It's also good for work. Reading on the tram or just curling up in a patch of sunshine at lunchtime...and if I finish my book I always have another ready to go. :)

[Bryn]

Benjamin wrote: "I couldnt live without my kindles. I havent bought a dtb in like many years."

I like that you say 'kindles' plural. I own two. They have names (they don't, but they are pets).

[Dawn]

Margaret wrote: "It's also good for work. Reading on the tram or just curling up in a patch of sunshine at lunchtime...and if I finish my book I always have another ready to go. :)

Real paper books do exactly the same. :) And I always carry an extra if I think I might need it....

[Bobby]

The new Kindle Fire is so much more than an e-reader. I can watch new movies, check e-mails, get on GR (huge plus) etc. I still buy a (can't even believe I'm saying this) "dtb" that I really want on my personal library shelf but between my Kindle Fire and the library, I save hundreds of $$$ compared to a few years ago.

[Bryn]

Kindles work for the indecisive reader, who has no idea what she might want to read on the trip home, or who needs to try five before she settles.

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

As many of you know, from chatting to me around A&M and from my posts throughout this thread, I havea Tablet and the ability to read an eBook on that Tablet. I tried it a couple times and hated it.
I am a died in the wool hardcopy lover. Whether it be reports, PDFs, Desktop Studies, anything, I will read the e version, (I like to have both e version and digital) but I prefer to have the hardcopy for reading.
If I have a Desktop Study I want to read, for example, that is over 1000 pages. I like to have the hardcopy for reading and flicking through, and the digital version so I can search the document.
I much prefer to highlight passages and notate the Hardcopy.

I am the same with books. I don't mind having the digital handy if I am going somewhere and might like to do some reading. But I avoid reading digital as I can't get attached to what's on the screen. Whether this is because I spent too many years associating reading on a screen with impersonal technical documents..I don't know. But books don't read well for me on a screen.

[Margaret, Sherlockian Sheila]

Dawn wrote: "Margaret wrote: "It's also good for work. Reading on the tram or just curling up in a patch of sunshine at lunchtime...and if I finish my book I always have another ready to go. :)

Real paper boo..."
Not the amount I read. I don't have room to carry the books.

[Bryn]

I'd only say - because we shouldn't try to convert each other, it's like religions - I think, the only way is to have a dedicated ereader. I loathe reading on my laptop, I'd never read a novel on it. Haven't tried a tablet. But I know I need a dedicated little thing that means only books to me, no other associations.

[Margaret, Sherlockian Sheila]

Bryn wrote: "Kindles work for the indecisive reader, who has no idea what she might want to read on the trip home, or who needs to try five before she settles."

Sorry, but no. When I am travelling 16 hours to the USA I know what I want to read...I just don't have enough room to carry enough books. When I sit and read, I sit and read. 4-5 books in a 16 hour period is not uncommon for me.