Joseph Campbell discussion group discussion
I don't really know what to say
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I can only agree on all counts. As for the Shaman, well, not so long ago we humans all lived in small villages, and there the shaman was cared for and respected, just as the artist was. Today the shaman is locked up by strangers who don't understand him/her and the artist has to go to New York and use a publicist to make a living - if possible. Society has changed but our spiritual needs have remained the same....
Well put, Allan; it's such an interesting and important tradition, it's a shame that shamanism is sensationalised and considered backward in western society.
And that may be why we are such a confused bunch of people in this so-called 'advanced' civilization. The Shaman helped people to see metaphor and live in the mythic space. Now what we have are fundamentalists of all kinds - the exact opposite of the person who can see metaphor.
I'm very fascinatied by shamans. I used to take an improv acting class, and the lady who taught it was a shaman. But at that time I was still going to my church and not at all wanting to explore anything like that. When people did live in villages, like you described, there were certain roles, like shaman, leader, hunter, artisan. A structure we don't have anymore. One thing I learned when I was reading about shamans, is that traditionally, the way a person knew they were called to be a shaman was that they would become very sick--either physically or psychologically and almost die, and that would be the beginning of the journey they were called to. I wonder how that fits into the 6 archetypes. The illness is the transformational experience--maybe it transforms the orphan into the pilgrim, and then he or she eventually becomes the magician.
I gave myself a real treat last night and sat down and read your book for almost 2 hours. It's so much better reading it that way, then just every night before I go to bed! I enjoyed it very much--I'm on the Shakespere chapter now. It's all very interesting and thought-provoking!
Leslie,Your comments on the shaman are right on the mark. Traditionally the shaman suffered an illness or a psychological breakdown that today we might call schizophrenic. This is important because the true schizoid will see two worlds at once, the inner world and the public world, and struggle to reconcile them. In listening to the inner world, this figure can allow the images of the collective unconscious to surface in ways the rest of us find rather difficult to achieve. These images lead the shaman back to health, and then allow that person to access wisdom. This wisdom is what the rest of us need to be reminded about.
Put another way: when we have a life threatening illness we are all forced to reassess what life means. We change the way we see everything, and everyone, and we have the opportunity to get in touch with what truly matters. For at such times we do care more about the infinite, and about love, than about whether we should get a Honda or a Toyota (See what I mean about living in two worlds at the same time?).
In archetypal terms the shaman has gone on a Pilgrimage, has found that we need to balance the two worlds, and is therefore becomes a balanced version of the Warrior-Lover who is ready to spread the word as a Monarch. If this happens - and it can't happen unless one speaks one's hard-earned truths - the shaman becomes a Magician, inspiring others. Martin Luther King would be an example. He could just have kept his awareness to himself, an awareness of the black/white split in his world, and been content to try and accept that insanity and get on as best he could. Instead he dared to name the unmentionable. He was called crazy (all decent shamans are: Gandhi, Jesus, Moses...) but he didn't stop even though he knew he'd be killed. And so he inspired millions. He still does.
I'm glad you're enjoying the book!
Hi!I love how you name the different great leaders as shamans--I never even thought of that and then when I read what you wrote I knew it was true--Wow! And I agree, all shamans are considered crazy by "normal" people--that belongs in quotes, doesn't it? I know back in a lot of ancient and so-called primitive cultures, the schizophrenic people were considered holy. But I think about how unhappy schizophrenic people are. It seems like a very difficult existence. My sister works with schizophrenic people and it sounds terrible. I'm wondering though--is that because of the condition or is it because of the people with the condition trying to fit into this unnatural society we live in? Maybe some of each, but wouldn't being schizophrenic in a society where you were considered holy and cared for and honored be a completely different experience than being schizophrenic in a society where you were considered crazy, locked in mental institutions, not cared for or honored, maybe the only way to be "free" is to live on the streets and be homeless? It's amazing to think of it that way.
What you said about daring to name the unmentionable also reminds me of the court jester, the one person who was allowed or even supposed to say the truth out loud, all the stuff other people were too afraid to say. Sometimes I feel like I want to be like that, I want to say the stuff other people don't want to say out loud, the stuff about sexual abuse. Sometimes I feel like that might even be my calling in life--my book, speaking out against it, I don't know what else, I just feel like it's something I have to do!! It's so important to me!
I am enjoying the book very much!! It's so good and you present very complex issues in ways that are understandable--I really love that!
I don't know how much I am going to have my computer next week--I'm taking it to work so I can have it downloaded with what I need to work at home. I might not have it for several days, so if you don't hear from me, that's why.
Have a great weekend!
Yes indeed, Leslie - imagine a world in which we respected our eccentrics and even loved them for what they could provide - just as the court jester was loved.Saying the unmentionable is 'crazy' if you want a tidy, orthodox, quiet life; but it is absolutely sane if you want a true existence. Again, what seems easy is really the hard way, and speaking out (which seems hard) is really the only sane way forward.
Have a great weekend!
It is hard to say what people don't want to hear--surprisingly hard, but then it really shouldn't be surprising when there is still that orphan part that doesn't want to be rejected by people. But I can't let that stop me! I've gotten a lot better about not letting it bother me, but it's still hard when I know how much my dad doesn't want me to talk about this stuff. I know it's not because he wants to hurt me, he's just trying to stop me from hurting him. I don't think I can do what I have to do without hurting him. That makes me sad. I will hurt my mom, too, but she seems to be able to deal with it and talk about it and accept it. My dad just gets all blustery and grouchy. UGH!!!
let's reframe the discussion: for example, global warming is happening, but quite a few people don't want to know about that. So they get blustery and grouchy. Well, that's their privilege. It's a free world. But global warming almost certainly is happening and not acknowledging that is a little bit silly. So what will hurt your father more, both of you living a lie, or you giving everyone the opportunity to live the truth? I know which way I'd go...
I do know which way I'm going--forward! I'm not letting him stop me. I think what's going on is the scared orphan still gets hurt and sad and feels rejected when "Daddy" gets mad and wants to get back in his good graces and gets all upset, because the Warrior/Lover (I hope that's where I am in writing my book) won't stop doing what makes Daddy mad--which is to speak the truth. So there is this inner conflict. Maybe what I need to do is accept that the conflict is there, it's happening and will continue and that's just part of the process. I think I've still been holding on to the fantasy that I can keep everybody, including my dad, happy, do what I need to do, advance in my development and growth and still have the orphan in her safe, cozy nest of Mommy and Daddy's approval. Which is impossible!!! I guess I have to accept the conflict, give up the fantasy, and stop putting energy towards getting upset when people don't like what I'm doing and just get on with it! Easier said than done, but I do think it's possible--at least some of the time!
Leslie,This feels absolutely accurate to me. I don't know your parents, so I can't make any sort of judgment, but what you say feels true. You can't make everyone happy...
Thanks! Accepting is a big challenge for me--I'm always wanting to change things to how I've decided they "should" be--which doesn't work. And it takes up too much energy trying and getting upset because it doesn't happen. Accepting is the balance and the answer. Now I just have to work on doing it!!I'm so excited about my book! I have about 77,000 words in the computer and another 20-30 thousand in notebooks!! I feel like I've come so far!!
Thank you for all the encouragement!
Excellent! Keep your focus on the writing! It'll all work itself to where it needs to be if you trust yourself (and you have already done that or you couldn't have written as much as you have...)
Thanks--I am trusting myself and writing, and then this other part--I think her name starts with an O, ends with an N, and has rpha in the middle, is there, hyersensitive to every little comment or look or imagined thought from other people, but more and more the part of me that is trusting what I'm doing and doing it, is saying--Be quiet, I'm writing!
Leslie,yes, that's a voice we've all met, and I write about it in my new book too. It's the Orphan's voice (as you say) and it wants to keep us safe. To the Orphan, not speaking up is 'safe', and this voice is trying to look after you. So, one thing you can do is thank it, and say to it, 'I appreciate your love for me, but right now I don't need what you have, because speaking out is a better way for me to love myself right now. Come back some time when I need you, please?' That way we acknowledge the voice, and calm it, the same way we'd calm an anxious child (for it is the anxious child part of ourselves....) And then it goes away, because it feels you are looking after yourself, after all.
We often have to dialogue with our Unconscious selves this way, when writing.
That's a good idea--to acknowledge the good the Orphan is trying to do. I never thought about that before.What is your new book called? You said it's about memoir-writing, right? I can't wait to read it!!!
My therapist has been teaching me that all the parts of me have a purpose and are to be valued and cared for and respected. My original thought was to just get rid of some of the parts, the ones so-called "causing the problems" but I'm learning a different approach from him, that each part is trying to accomplish something it feels is important and to value and re-direct them and thank them and also sometimes let them know they can rest. That I don't need them to work so hard now, like I did when I was little, that they did a hard job and are important, but that now they can rest and not work so hard, because other parts are accomlishing the same goals in other ways. They don't have to do it all anymore. This approach is really helpful to me.
I finished reading your book last night. Thank you for writing it1 I feel like I learned more from your book than any I've read in a long time!
Leslie,Your therapist is very wise - and the advice is good. This is exactly how we have to deal with those inner voices. They mean no harm, but now they get in the way....
The new book will be 'Write your Memoir: The Soul Work of telling your story' and it'll be out in January 2010. I think you'll enjoy it very much - especially as you liked "Stories we need to Know". So, thank you so much for your kind words about it. You definitely 'got' the ideas in it - and they are useful ideas, too!
I can't wait to read it!!!! It sounds so good! I added your other books to my to-read list. I already have your book about love and the six archetypes! It looks really good! You are welcome, I have enjoyed your book very much, and it's the kind of book that isn't just a book that I read and then read another and another and another and it just fades into the background of my mind. Your book is the kind of book that changes my outlook on life and gives me a new way of looking at the world--so thank you!!
There's so much in the book that you think about throughout your day, whatever it is you're doing. I was struck by the description of grandchildren bringing parents and children together, thats very beautiful and so true. I'm lucky to have great parents but I know of many couples who found a fuller understanding of this important relationship by observing how their parents now interact with their grandchildren.
My own mother was diagnosed with incurable cancer just after Christmas so the last 6 weeks have been very shocking and difficult for us all but I still smile at how she scolds me for trying to discipline my own two year old girl and think back to how she had no trouble disciplining me!
My own mother was diagnosed with incurable cancer just after Christmas so the last 6 weeks have been very shocking and difficult for us all but I still smile at how she scolds me for trying to discipline my own two year old girl and think back to how she had no trouble disciplining me!
I'm sorry, Daveh, to hear about your mother. That is very sad. Isn't it funny how it works like that? The stuff my dad puts up with--tickling, getting his head rubbed, being poked--from my daughter and his other grandkids, he did not put up from us, that's for sure!!
Sometimes it's the birth of a grandchild that brings estranged families back together. I've seen that happen many times, haven't you?
Hi all... and Leslie! (I found this group through a reference from you, hope you don't mind - Sherrie from Terminalcoffee)I'll need to catch up with the conversation, but the ideas of archetypes leading us on a journey through our lives has fascinated me since I was a teenager.
Just two comments & then I'll read back & see what else has been said.
First, I think that when you are enmeshed in a culture where ideology is very structured and questioning it is taboo, and then something calls to you and you begin to look to those questions, is definitely a call to a very individualized journey. I left my religious upbringing when I was 17 because 'something' kept calling to me. For so long I had no idea what it meant, and thought I was even going insane. Now, after almost 20 years I realize that it was my own soul calling to begin a journey of finding myself. Even the scariest of experiences (and I've been through some doozies) on this trip cannot compare to the discoveries I have found... and am still finding.
Second, In the last few years I have encountered some rather heavy, disabling health crises which have all but cut me off from most of the world. (And, I don't say this to complain or gain sympathy) What I have found in the last two years was that it has enabled me to go deeply within, with the help of reading and some incredible people in my life, and further understand not just who I am but a glimpse of a new journey that is now more outward than before. I believe that it has something to do with this idea of people, as a whole, yearning for more than the materialistic or even intellectual gains in their lives. It seems so many people are now seeking a spiritual path to their own souls more than ever, and it's not necessarily related to a religious point-of-view, although that can be a catalyst if it fits your spiritual needs.
I think these kinds of ideas are so exciting and rewarding, and I believe they can even be a healing for our culture more powerful than any scientific or medical discovery made thusfar in our history.
Here is one of my latest favorite quotes, because I think it has direct bearing on our spirits and this subject as well.
"The day science begins to study non-physical phenomena, it will make more progress in one decade than in all the previous centuries of its existence." — Nikola Tesla
Leslie, Dave and Sherrie,First of all I want to say to you, Dave, how sad I am to hear about your mother. That's a heavy burden. And I'd also like to say that there's nothing quite like preparing for a relative's death for causing us to think again, feel anew, and extend love to the person who, at this time, most needs to know about it. When we move towards death nothing much really matters, apart from knowing we have been loved and that we can give love. So there are many important lessons here, in even the difficulties.
In some ways that's also what Sherrie was saying - it's the rough times that shake us to the core that allow us to grow our souls. I'm interested that, like Leslie, Sherrie has been the religious route and rejected it. I look forward to some lively exchanges between you! And what you describe, Sherrie, is what Joseph Campbell identifies as 'the call' to move to a higher awareness. We ignore it at our peril.
And since I'm talking to everyone at the same time, here, thank you, Leslie for your review of "Stories We Need to Know". It gives me great joy to know it's been useful to others - because all any writer ever wants is to be able to help a fellow traveler... writing can be pretty lonely at times, as we know.
Hi Sherrie, Dave, and Allen-Sherrie--of course I don't mind!! I love it when people can find wonderful things, like this discussion! It's really been a good experience for me, getting to know Dr. Allen and Dave on here and talking about these things and learning about these archetypes!
I am sad, too, about your mother Dave. I know we talked about it about it before, but it must be scary and sad. I feel scared about my parents getting seriously ill and dying. On many levels. I know it's something pretty much everyone has to go through, but it doesn't make it any easier.
Sherrie, it's interesting that you left your religious upbringing when you were 17--I was 16 when I joined a church that most people think of as a cult. I left when I was 44. I thought I was moving towards that "higher awareness" but I know now how untrue that really was. I'm sorry to hear about your health problems, it seems like you've been able to "use" it, if that's the right word, to take a very profound journey.
Allen, I'm glad you like the review--I hope a lot of people read it and find out about your wonderful book and can benefit from it, as I have!
Thanks for the kind words, guys, they mean a lot. My mother is actually coming out of hospital today and begins radiation and chemo in 2 weeks so I don't have time to respond properly to any of the other points or threads as I'm heading down to her now but I'll post again asap.
Good luck & godspead Daveh. We'll be thinking about you & sending good energy your way. :)
We're thinking of you, Dave. Just one thought - it's never a good idea to try to brave these things alone (which is what quite a few folks think they have to do). Lean on your friends and loved ones a little. It's better for everyone. but you probably already know that...>
Dave, it will mean a lot to your mom that you are there. I'm sure she already knows how much you love her, but being there is the best gift you could ever give her.
That's a wise statement, right there, Leslie.
Allan, I was wondering if you ever saw a reflection between addiction and serious illness in the list of stages you worked on with Dr. Mary Hall?
Right now, I can almost go through them with my mam with regard to her learning to accept her situation and move forward towards fighting it.
Maybe there's also a relationship between this list and the work of Elizabeth Kubler Ross too?
(Btw, you may actually remark on this later in the book; if so, sorry!)
Right now, I can almost go through them with my mam with regard to her learning to accept her situation and move forward towards fighting it.
Maybe there's also a relationship between this list and the work of Elizabeth Kubler Ross too?
(Btw, you may actually remark on this later in the book; if so, sorry!)
Daveh, I think there is a reflection between the stages of serious illness and addiction (as described by Mary Hall), although I'd hesitate to assert that as I don't have a lot of evidence of illness, aside from anecdotally. Is this what you're seeing with your mother? It might be a good idea for you take keep a journal of where her thinking is, so you can be aware of the changes she will be going through. This will be a way to keep your emotions from becoming too strong to bear, I think, while not making you have to shut yourself down.Kubler-Ross is interesting, too, although I've had a lot of trouble seeing her stages of dying as truly helpful. For the dying person can teach us many lessons, if we're paying attention, and can become the real Magician that can make the death a huge mind-opening gift. (I write about that later on in the book).
I'm thinking of you at this difficult time, when everything will be reassessed, to some extent.
You and your family are in my thoughts, too, Daveh. You're going through something so difficult and so profound and life-changing. I'm glad for your mom that she has a son like you who is so aware and thoughtful and willing to go down past the superficialities. Many people won't or can't do that.
Thanks Leslie. It's definitely not easy. My mam was talking about having to take one day at a time but I was just thinking today while waiting for her to finish her radiation treatment that it's like that for the family too. You see so many people in the waiting room all with the same expression and you feel like you're all sharing one journey, which in a way we are.
Yes, you're not alone on this journey, many people are in a similiar situation. It would be nice if the hospital had a support group for the patients and families going through severe illnesses like cancer. How is your mother holding up with the radiation treatments? I hope they are making her feel too awful. It's so hard having the sickness, and then the treatments are hard to tolerate, as well. I really feel for her and for you and your family.
Dave, yes it is a journey, for you and your mother and for everyone in those waiting rooms. It's good to remember that, I think. At times we all need to rest, to lend a hand, and to accept help, too.I'm sending you good thoughts.
It is so deceptive how the hard way always does seem like the right way. Like how the bible talks about the strait and narrow way as the way to god, and then the broad way that leads to destruction, the easy way. In my old church, you had to work hard every day to live for god, but we were not supposed to think of it as work, it was love in action. Just like we weren't supposed to get scared when they talked about all the terrible things that would happen. I makes sense that it does have to do with guilt, we appease our sense of guilt by having a "hard" life. I never thought about that, but Ithink you're right.
What you said about shamans makes sense, like living on the edge of the universe, you could fall off at anytime, like a tightrope. It seems like back in the past, life was structured to care for the practical needs of these special people, so they could concentrate on their unique gifts. I don't think it's so much like that now. It doesn't seem to be. Thanks for saying that I am in the world of transcendent truths when I write--that gives me a lot of encouragement--I try to get there, I hope it happens from time to time.
Maybe lots of ascendent beings have sacrificed to help others, maybe they have chosen human-ness as the only way to reach us humans--maybe that's the highest magic of all!