Classics and the Western Canon discussion
Proust - Swann's Way
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Swann's Way - Overture and Combray
Alta wrote: "...I think the book's structure is, in a way, like the structure of Proust's sentences. In appearance, they seem to be going nowhere--like loose spaghetti--but, in fact, they are extremely rigorous..."Patrick Alexander points out places where Proust introduces ideas whose significance are not realized until much, even books later! He says no first time reader could catch all of these. I can't even imagine the discipline and rewriting required, although Proust was supposedly infamous for his editing.
I got Patrick Alexander's book today. It looks like it will be incredibly helpful and interesting
Lily wrote: "Bill wrote: ""Red" is certainly an abstraction, but I don't think it has existence beyond its particular instances in the world...."Even if the term is applied to light of certain wavelengths?
Yes, even then. The nominalist position is that all there is are the individual wavelengths of light that exist in the spectrum between infra-red and orange. "Red" is just a name we give to that collection of wave-lengths. Each wave length exists. But the Idea of "red" doesn't have an independent existence somewhere in the beyond as an Idea which gives reality to each instance.
At any rate, that is the nominalist argument. The realist position -- Plato's -- is that the Idea of "red" actually exists somewhere with an independent reality and gives meaning to the individual instances.
The first heavyweight to criticize Plato's theory of Ideas (on different grounds) was another equally serious, but far less entertaining figure, Aristotle. But the "status of universals" is one of those problems that we see a variety of philosophers going after.
I'm not trying to argue it so much as indicate that Plato had a particular attitude toward universals -- that they were Ideas or Forms -- and it is very possible to talk about abstractions without having that attitude or theory.
Terms like truth and justice are of course more problematic and have to a greater or lesser extent occupied thinkers in the philosophical tradition for 2500 years. Truth, how we know, epistemology was the central question of philosophy perhaps from Descartes until relatively recently.
In regards to Patrick Alexander, it is my preference to read a book in its entirety before consulting commentaries. I'm sure it's a fine book, but personally I'd rather not hear about what Alexander has to say until I've heard what you all have to say about it! Perhaps we could set up a "references and resources" thread if this would be helpful to those who want to discuss commentaries?
Bill wrote: "Truth, how we know, epistemology was the central question of philosophy perhaps from Descartes until relatively recently...."Comment on the "until relatively recently"?
The realist position -- Plato's -- is that the Idea of "red" actually exists somewhere with an independent reality and gives meaning to the individual instances.
I have much difficulty labeling such the "realist" position -- although I may/probably understand the "logic" for doing so.
Hope these links are okay with you here, Thomas and Patrice. I'll put future ones in a reference thread when established in deference to keeping this one more conversational.From page 40 of Davis: Chartres Cathedral after Corot: http://www.abcgallery.com/C/corot/cor...
Fountains of Saint Cloud after Hubert Robert: http://tempsperdu.com/robert.html
For more about this fountain and the on-going story:
(view spoiler) (The "spoiler" contains only links, so you are doubly "protected.")
Vesuvius after Turner: http://tempsperdu.com/turner.html
Since the text here does not name specific drawings, these only give the sense of what M may have seen. (Who is after all fictional, regardless of how much he may reflect the "real" author.)
Thomas wrote: "... it is my preference to read a book in its entirety before consulting commentaries..."Thomas and Patrice -- Do know that we are not all the same, especially for a book that has so many allusions to historical conditions with which one may not be familiar, but given that there is often a split among readers along those lines, I quite agree separate threads will be appropriate. (Personally, I tend to treat/view a commentator as just another reader who has had the privilege of spending considerable time with the text.)
Lily,I have much difficulty labeling such the "realist" position -- although I may understand the "logic" for doing so.
These aren't my terms, you realize, they're what we find in the history of philosophy. It's the language we're stuck with, rather like "schizophrenia" even though we're really not talking about a split mind. I'm entirely innocent of picking them.
Comment on the "until relatively recently".
Until relatively recently -- the last 100 years or so -- and I'm not a philosopher so I can't give much more than this -- but it's a standard line, not my eccentric notion -- has turned from problem of knowledge to the philosophy of language.
In the "analytic" or "Anglo-American" tradition as it is known because it holds sway in British and American universitiesthe names are Frege, Russsell, Wittgenstein, the Vienna Circle, Quine. This is the logical analysis of language and it is MUCH less sexy than Plato or even Aristotle.
In the "continental tradition the central thrust of a lot philosophy -- for example, from Heidegger to the present -- Derrida being one of the best known examples -- has thinking about language at the core of the philosophy.
I'm more familiar with Plato than I am with contemporary philosophy, although I do make stabs at it from time to time.
Bill -- THX! There was nothing personal towards you intended in my comment about the use of "realist", more just my own sardonic reaction! While I have touched only the edges of philosophy, the nature and uses and limitations of language do intrigue at times, including here.But, now let us "concentrate" on Proust. Still, thanks for the (background?) digression.
Lily, I didn't think you meant anything personally -- I just wanted to be clear these were standard terms. I agree we use realism very differently in most circumstances. It is ironic. Now as for Proust, I'm most interested in the question of time and how we think of it. I was moved reading A Visit from the Goon squad this summer. The "Goon Squad" is quite specifically time and the author wrote it with Proust very much in mind. I'm old enough (sigh) to have experienced real loss and also remember the days when everyone was young and everything was possible and how it all turned out and how many are alive and sane. And I am aware of a deep melancholia under that.
So I'm interested in how memory, perhaps the reminder of time, functions in adult life, and whether it is a pleasure or a curse.
I also know that memory distorts (and sometimes it doesn't) which is a good reason sometimes not to visit places or works of art later in life. They can't live up to the memories.
I'm frustrated having to read it in English -- but if I try it in French I don't know that I'll live long enough to finish it.
Lily wrote: "Thomas and Patrice -- Do know that we are not all the same, especially for a book that has so many allusions to historical conditions with which one may not be familiar, but given that there is often a split among readers along those lines, I quite agree separate threads will be appropriate. "I don't have an issue with links to historical references, but I have a BIG issue with commentary. My argument against commentary in the group is twofold: first, the writer of said commentary isn't part of our conversation, and as a result is treated with a different sort of respect than you or I or anyone in the group is. Secondly, it turns the focus away from the book at hand to the commentary. The commentary tends to become the "authority," and it overshadows the conversation. Personally, I think we can do fine without commentators telling us what they think. Of course, they are free to join GR and meet us on our level. That would be fantastic, actually.
I'm sure Everyman will weigh in on this soon, but that's my position on it.
I agree with Thomas. In real life, I did read a couple of Proust biographies -- which of course reference the novel a lot -- and some historical materials about the relevant era in France alongside the novel, so I'm not at all a purist about this in private. In fact now I'm a voracious reader of everything Proust-related that I can get my hands on. But in a discussion forum like this, I think it's a great idea to stick to our own impressions and views.
I also happen to not be a fan of Patrick Alexander's book, but I hope this isn't coloring my opinion on this issue!
Meanwhile I have just caught up on all the posts here and am blown away by all the various views and insights (though I have never read Plato and so I missed out on a lot). I am really looking forward to the next few weeks!
I also happen to not be a fan of Patrick Alexander's book, but I hope this isn't coloring my opinion on this issue!
Meanwhile I have just caught up on all the posts here and am blown away by all the various views and insights (though I have never read Plato and so I missed out on a lot). I am really looking forward to the next few weeks!
By the way there are plenty of references that are helpful and wonderful companions to reading Proust that are NOT commentaries. Lily's art links are examples. I even recommend the movie "Gigi" just to get a feel for the look, fashions, and some of the Parisian culture of the era. Best of all, there's a book out with beautiful photographs of most of the artwork mentioned in Proust. If a references/related materials thread is opened up I would love to give a link to this book in particular; it's a real treat.
Thomas wrote: "My argument against commentary in the group is twofold: first, the writer of said commentary isn't part of our conversation, and as a result is treated with a different sort of respect than you or I or anyone in the group is. Secondly, it turns the focus away from the book at hand to the commentary...."I appreciate your concerns, Thomas, and I certainly have seen others share them. I am particularly sympathetic to the second one (turning the focus away from the book itself), although I personally often need commentary to "get at" the book at hand! As far as your first concern, about undue respect, well, I think that is up to the participants. We aren't in a class, so I personally don't see any other book (commentary) having different weight than at least the book being read. Ofttimes here we are privileged to have people who can comment on the commentary as well as the book. And, I happen to think it is "more honest" to have use of commentary out in the open than perhaps "behind" what is posted. But, I have seen these views often enough in online groups that the reasonable solution usually has been to try to restrict background resources to a separate thread.
I do know Eman's library (and experience) is rich and deep enough to include good commentary on some classics; he has been an invaluable resource through the years. But I suspect he will go along with the separate thread concept. I know he, too, privileges the text itself. (I agree that it would be a delight to have any join the GR discussion! In days past, elsewhere, I have been known to help that sort of thing happen.)
So, do let us try to focus on the text rather than process. I apologize if I protest too much, but sometimes I feel as if valuable inputs and discussion can be suppressed by being "too hard" on including commentary.
Bill wrote: "I also know that memory distorts (and sometimes it doesn't) which is a good reason sometimes not to visit places or works of art later in life. They can't live up to the memories..."Do you see that (not living up to the memories) happening in this story so far?
Can you tell us a bit more about the links between Proust and The Goon Squad that may interest us? I'm being too lazy to go find it out tonight and don't know how or where contribute to comparisons.
Well, okay, this may help:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2011/...
Since I have been doing background listening on European history (really coincident to this reading, not "for" it), my interests have been leaning towards the metaphors of French history that are apparently embedded in the story line.
No, Lily, I don't have much of an opinon of A la Recherche, yet. Reading Goon Squad was part of my motivation to read it. I'm curious to find out how her treatment of time is similar/different from Proust's.I think what is most striking in Goon Squad is that we see the characters over a period of time, although not in the usual way. For example, she'll take you into the head of a character at any point of his or her life, using a very strict limited third person, getting you very involved, and then she'll switch to an omniscient third person and give you the entire rest of his or life, in a few sentences. It can feel like punch in the gut. Read Chapter V, The Safari. It, along with some other chapters, were published separately as a short stories and they stand on its own. If you choose to read it, you'll see what I mean.
Or not. But it illustrates what I mean.
But I haven't read enough of Proust yet to find the parallels.
As for commentary I think they are interesting as other members of the group. I agree it's a problem if commentary becomes more than just another opinion. I personally don't think I have a trouble with not respecting authority. :-)
Thomas wrote: "" Sleep seems to be a big motif here, and even though we're at the very beginning of the book I can't help wondering if Proust isn't using sleep as a symbol of lost time. "I completely agree with Thomas here: sleep as a motif of lost time, but also of memory. Actually, as a place where hopefully all memories of lost time might be retrieved. It's also for the narrator the place where things can be felt, whereas they cannot be savoured as he would like to in the present time, gone as quick as they happened... The time of writing finally.
I am a bit behind, and so I started the reading a bit later than intended, but I am trying to catch up. I just finished Overture and while reading the narrators reflections of his past and considering the recurring motif of lost time/memories, I could not help but think of the way in which the memoeries which we do have and perceive really become as fabrications of our own minds. As time passes and as our memories begin to fade our minds begin to fill in those gaps within our memoery and so we often do not truly remember things has they acutally happened, but rather as we remember them the way we want them to be remembered. I think this is the reason why the past often does become so idyllic and nostalgic for many people becasue we ultimately end up creating for ourselves that idyllic illusion of our pasts. So all these moments that happen in our lives do truly become lost forever in the passage of time becasue our own memoeries of them become but false impressions of the reality.
Vicky,I suspect not all memories. I think there's a great deal of selection in the process, even desired. Of course Proust says that he can't control what brings a memory to him, but he does suspiciously focus on the pleasant ones.
I was struck by the passage of the lady in pink, knowing just a little about the notion of the "courtesan" in Paris. I have read the Paris was the capital of the 19th century, and it was also the capital of prostitution. But there was all the difference in the world between being the Parisian equivalent of a street hooker and the sort of girl titled men "ruined" themselves at Monte Carlo. La Belle Otero was one of those, and I tried to read a biography of her but it was too dull.I also noticed how the narrator was jealous of the woman richer patron. A courtesan might have a rich patron and a poorer one whom she loved, her amant de coeur -- although that does not seem to be the role of the narrator's uncle.
Silver wrote: "I am a bit behind, and so I started the reading a bit later than intended, but I am trying to catch up. I just finished Overture and while reading the narrators reflections of his past and consider..."Just finished reading Daniel Schachter’s "The Seven Sins of Memory." What you are saying is probably what the author calls “The Sin of Bias”. In Orwell’s "1984" the government tries to control and alter history and manipulates memory but individual minds can distort memory of the past to fit the needs of the present. Schachter describes five biases of how we shape our memory to fit our present needs.
Galicius wrote: "Silver wrote: "I am a bit behind, and so I started the reading a bit later than intended, but I am trying to catch up. I just finished Overture and while reading the narrators reflections of his pa..."Because I find the questions of reality and our perceptions of reality to be fascinating, I have always found this concept of memoery to be quite interesting. I cannot recall where I had first it about that idea in the way in which our own subconscious acutally will fill in the gaps of our memoery to sort or rewrite it, but I was always intrigued by the idea.
Our own lives become in part a fabrication, can we ever truly know ourselves when the very memoeries of who we are can deceive us. While we may remember the blueprints of what happens in our lives, the events themselves, or perceptions of them, our feelings about what happened over time can become distorted, and certain details embellished and exaggerated.
I think this is in part why I always love the question of the unreliable narrator when reading, becasue even when one does have the best and most honest of intentions, there is always another story behind the story that is being revealed.
Patrice wrote: "So true! Good to see you again Silver.It is good to be back. It feels like I have been gone forever. I was sorry to miss out on the last discussion but there was no way I could fit it in. I was determined to join in on this one, but my reading the book was a bit delayed.
Bill wrote: "Actually, our habits are what save time. You begin learning to tie a shoelace and then you're good at it, and then you do it quickly, while having a conversation, without thinking about it."That's a good point. It may be relevant that legally, under the rules of evidence, habit can be used as proof of an event even though you have no direct memory of it. A habit, legally, is something you do every time you encounter a specific situation. For example, if you always lock the bottom lock on your door when you leave the house, even if you don't have a specific memory of doing it on the day it was robbed, you can testify to the fact that it is a habit, and if so it will be admitted into evidence (of course the jury can disbelieve you, but you don't have to have a specific memory of locking it that day.)
Thomas wrote: "Roger wrote: "Is this supposed to be a novel? I have not yet detected a plot. Is it a memoir? A kind of long rambling essay?"After the first ten pages I started praying that the narrator would get out of bed and do something... but I'm starting to appreciate what he's doing now. I read somewhere that his writing method involved adding new material to each new draft, stuffing more and more detail into it as he went. Most writing benefits from the opposite operation -- editing out the unnecessary fluff. "You must kill your darlings" is how Faulkner put it. Proust has many darlings, and they seem to multiply on the page, one after the other. "
I love that pair of comments. I, too, am both amazed and frustrated at the book.
Amazed at the detail, the insights, the amazing flow of unlayering point after point after point, the beauty of the language.
Frustrated because when I go back to try to summarize what I have read, as is my custom with discussion books, I can't. There is no there there to summarize. There are a few points like the peaks of a mountain range sticking above the fog -- sleeping, madeleine, street scene -- but whatever connective tissue there is, if any, is hidden beneath the cloud layer, which is beautiful and looks so substantial from above until you start descending into it, at which point you go on through a continuum of soft directionless vapor ebbing and flowing beautifully but keeping hidden any direction or goal.
Bill wrote: "Proust, along with many other great novelists, ..."One thing we may want to discuss when we get to the end of the reading (or may not because by then the answer may have become self evident) is whether this is in fact a novel.
Alta wrote: "I agree (with "This book seems on the surface to be very loose stream of conciousness writing but when you look closer it has a very interesting structure. Or, at least it has so far.") I think th..."That's a fascinating comment, Alta. I hope you will write more about the structure you see developing as we read on.
Lily wrote: "Thomas wrote: "... it is my preference to read a book in its entirety before consulting commentaries..."Thomas and Patrice -- Do know that we are not all the same, especially for a book that has so many allusions to historical conditions with which one may not be familiar, but given that there is often a split among readers along those lines, I quite agree separate threads will be appropriate."
As a housekeeping matter, I would suggest that general commentaries on a text might be best left until the last thread of a discussion, or put in a separate thread, but I think that explanatory or clarifying comments relative to specific points, particularly points not general knowledge, can be quite appropriate withing the discussion thread. For example, I found Alta's comment on the actual town of Combray very interesting and entirely appropriate. And if Proust refers to ideas or historical features which are likely to be less known to American readers, I think it would be entirely appropriate to include that information.
For me, what may be best left until the last topic in the discussion, or included in a separate thread, are comments about or from specific critical essays or other writings in which an author talks of the way he or she understands or interprets the work as a whole.
Not sure whether this makes sense. Hope it does!
Everyman wrote: "...the way he or she understands or interprets the work as a whole...."Remembering, of course, that we are reading only one seventh of a whole. Like several of you, I am finding it difficult to discern the structure. I think this is one of the reasons I have always ultimately failed in reading this thing in the past. It is certainly one of the reasons I am turning to others for help this time -- (view spoiler)
Lily wrote: "Everyman wrote: "...the way he or she understands or interprets the work as a whole...."Remembering, of course, that we are reading only one sixth of a whole. Like several of you, I am finding it..."
Sometimes I find reading these sorts of stream of conscious narrations to be difficult often because for me reading the seemingly ramblings of someone else almost has a hypnotic affect and makes my own mind start to wonder and than I realize half-way down the page I have no idea what I was reading about and have to reread it.
But one of the things I think that is interesting in the case of this book is I find is with such a strong focus being placed upon memory and the passage of time, I find the narration style and that stream of conscious, and seemingly lack of structure is really very reflective of the way memories and reflections upon our lost time does play out within our minds. I enjoy the way in which the physical structure (or lack there of) of the writing seems to add further emphasis to the content within the writing. It makes it feel more authentic and natural in a way.
@52Thomas wrote: "Something else that made me think of Plato: When Francoise is sent to fetch the medical book and is found sobbing at the description of pain in the book. She cares little or nothing for the kitchen maid, "Giotto's Charity," who is actually experiencing the pain. But the idea, the "mental picture" of the pain, greatly affects her. Francoise isn't without empathy, but her empathy is for a disembodied idea rather than for an actual human being...."Francoise here reminds me of The Scarlet Pimpernel and the tricoteuses, the peasant women who could sit under the guillotines and knit, even as they were bespattered. Yet, she is capable of sturdy, steady capable caring, even love, within whatever she defines as her relevant world. A great character, redolent perhaps of the fourth estate of the ancien regime?
Francoise here reminds me of The Scarlet Pimpernel and the tricoteuses, the peasant women who could sit under the guillotines and knit, even as they were bespattered. Yet, she is capable of sturdy, steady capable caring, even love, within whatever she defines as her relevant world. A great character, redolent perhaps of the fourth estate of the ancien regime?Great comment, Lily!
@87M wrote: "Best of all, there's a book out with beautiful photographs of most of the artwork mentioned in Proust. If a references/related materials thread is opened up I would love to give a link to this book in particular; it's a real treat. ..."LOL! Paintings figure deeply enough in RoTP that I went looking for a web site and instead discovered the book you mention! But I have been too selfish to mention it here until I was fairly certain I had dibs on a library copy. Hopefully, I have now, but this one took a bit of doing! :o
I like your suggestion of watching a movie ("Gigi") of the period. Thanks!
Lily wrote: "Given that we are reading Proust, it was particularly fun to watch Nova's show on "Time" last night, which carried the viewpoint that earthly past is t..."
Just caught that show last night! It was amazing that it came on while we're reading this. I think it showed that physics recognizes exactly what Proust is saying: the past isn't gone, it is coexistent with the present and the future, even if we humans can only extremely rarely, if ever, grasp that. Hence the feeling of euphoria when the past can be recaptured via a taste or smell or other sensation: that type of memory makes us see that the past is still as real as this moment. Proust was way ahead of his time with this notion.
Problem is, I don't think many people can recapture whole worlds by means of a cup of tea. We've probably all experienced those moments of a sudden memory returning via a fragrance we haven't smelled since childhood, but for me only a single moment returns, not weeks and years, exact images of rooms and people as they were then, or any of that. The narrator is a lucky guy to have all of that come back like that. :-)
Just caught that show last night! It was amazing that it came on while we're reading this. I think it showed that physics recognizes exactly what Proust is saying: the past isn't gone, it is coexistent with the present and the future, even if we humans can only extremely rarely, if ever, grasp that. Hence the feeling of euphoria when the past can be recaptured via a taste or smell or other sensation: that type of memory makes us see that the past is still as real as this moment. Proust was way ahead of his time with this notion.
Problem is, I don't think many people can recapture whole worlds by means of a cup of tea. We've probably all experienced those moments of a sudden memory returning via a fragrance we haven't smelled since childhood, but for me only a single moment returns, not weeks and years, exact images of rooms and people as they were then, or any of that. The narrator is a lucky guy to have all of that come back like that. :-)
M wrote: "Problem is, I don't think many people can recapture whole worlds by means of a cup of tea. We've probably all experienced those moments of a sudden memory returning via a fragrance we haven't smelled since childhood, but for me only a single moment returns, not weeks and years, exact images of rooms and people as they were then, or any of that. The narrator is a lucky guy to have all of that come back like that. :-)..."Since it's fiction, only one sip is needed. If it was an autobiography, he'd have to drink many hundreds of cups to write all seven books, LOL!
It's true what you say though. I'm always amazed how fragrances and smells can bring up so much from our past.
Patrice wrote: "Bill had said that Proust was unaware of Freud but I'm having a hard time believing that. I have to do some research. The whole book is about consciousness and unconsciousness and given the time it was written..."The Cambridge Introduction to Marcel Proust tells me that Proust was well acquainted with the work of psychologist William James (yes, he was Henry James' brother). His Principles of Psychology, which among other things looks at the way the un/subconscious is portrayed by various thinkers/philosophers/writers and discussed the way we perceive time, was published in 1890 (so a few years before Freud starting formulating and publishing his ideas about the unconscious). William James influenced a lot of other writers' ideas about the conscious/unconscious and was the person who coined the term 'stream of consciousness'.
We get a hint of a plot right at the end of Combray, don't we? It looks like we're going to hear about a momentous affair Swann had. Perhaps that will give us some insight into Swann's mysteriously unmeetable wife.This opening chapter seems to me like the series of warm chords you hear at the beginning of some classical music pieces, which set a mood before the actual statement of the theme.
Patrice wrote: "Bill had said that Proust was unaware of Freud but I'm having a hard time believing that. "Speaking of Freud, I was wondering, as I read the lengthy section, what he would have made of Proust's fixation on the church steeple.
Everyman wrote: Speaking of Freud, I was wondering, as I read the lengthy section, what he would have made of Proust's fixation on the church steeple. ..."
Not to mention the asparagus.
Well, Bill (speaking for Bill, as I am always comfortable doing) didn't exactly say that Proust was unaware of Freud. He quoted a paragraph from Edmund White's biography of Proust (in the Penguin Lives series) which said that Proust hadn't READ Freud and Freud hadn't read Proust. I am aware of many things I haven't read -- for example, Proust's novel In Search of Lost Time before I began reading it.But as I said, I don't Find Proust a Freudian anymore than Oedipus or Hamlet are Freudians -- just cases in point.
Another book on Proust is the Cambridge Companion to Proust.
http://www.amazon.com/Cambridge-Compa...
These are collections of essays by various writers on Proust. It's many different approaches. I like the series, and I've found it helpful on Tolstoy.
Often this series is frustrating because it will have different essays on different books -- so if you're interested in one book particularly, you'll have the introduction and one or two essays.
However, in this case, the TOC seems to be focusing just on In Search of Lost Time, partially because it's far and away the Proust people read but also because it's six volumes. For those interested go to Amazon, click Search Inside this Book, and just check out the table of contents.
Patrice wrote: "One thing I'd bet on is that Freud read Sophocles!"No Way!
@120Bill wrote: "Another book on Proust is the Cambridge Companion to Proust...."Bill -- I can't readily get my hands on that. (Not in my immediate library system, neither is The Cambridge Introduction to Marcel Proust!) If you have it, would you share a bit from Roger Shattuck's "Lost and Found: The Structure of Proust's Novel" -- in the research thread, if not appropriate here? Like, what should we be watching for in terms of structure?
(Or maybe from William Carter's "The Vast Structure of Recollection: from Life to Literature", since he's probably the guy M tells us is offering a whole online course on Proust.)
(Sorry 'bout that -- Amazon makes it too easy by offering us access to TOCs on so many books.)
Lily wrote: " ... (Or maybe from William Carter's "The Vast Structure of Recollection: from Life to Literature", since he's probably the guy M tells us is offering a whole online course on Proust.)"
This sounds fascinating! Yes, that's the same William Carter I mentioned. You're making me wonder why I never picked up that particular book of essays. Probably just a case of "too much is enough", as my 90-year-old Dad likes to say, since I notice I've already got 37 Proust-related books on my Goodreads Proust shelf!
This sounds fascinating! Yes, that's the same William Carter I mentioned. You're making me wonder why I never picked up that particular book of essays. Probably just a case of "too much is enough", as my 90-year-old Dad likes to say, since I notice I've already got 37 Proust-related books on my Goodreads Proust shelf!
M wrote: "since I notice I've already got 37 Proust-related books on my Goodreads Proust shelf!..."LOL! Remember Sunday's Goodreads quotation:
Where is human nature so weak as in the bookstore?
- Henry Ward Beecher
ha! Yeah, I saved that one. :-)
Lily,I'll share when I get to them. I'm feeling a little overwhelmed with all the reading assignments I've given myself. I've made an appointment with myself to discuss the matter and work out a strategy.
Lily wrote: "@120Bill wrote: "Another book on Proust is the Cambridge Companion to Proust...."Bill -- I can't readily get my hands on that. (Not in my immediate library system, neither is The Cambridge ..."
In terms of structure, it's useful to read A la recherche as a kind of roman-fleuve (literally river-novel) although it deviates from the norm. Romans-fleuves were very popular in the early 20th century in France and they were a kind of extremely long novels (if you thought A la recherche was long, its 7 volumes are nothing compared to Jules Romain's Les Hommes de bonne volonté which has 27 volumes!) which attempt to follow in painstakingly detailed manner the whole life/lives of a single hero or group of people (usually a family, but also a group of friends/acquittance, in Proust we follow the lives of the Narrator and his family, the Swanns, the Verdurin circle and the Guermantes circle which interact with each other - I won't say more about how because I don't want to spoil it for anyone). One of the most important characteristics of romans-fleuves is that they don't hold together as well as other kinds of novels, they often branch out, make bends or collect tributaries and their coherence depends more on recurrent themes and characters than on a straight, uncomplicated central narrative strand (and in this sense they differ from 19th century serialized novels and novel series which while portraying heroes and groups of people in a lot of detail but tend to have a stronger/most visible and easier to follow structure).
Andreea wrote: "One of the most important characteristics of romans-fleuves is that they don't hold together as well as other kinds of novels, they often branch out, make bends or collect tributaries and their coherence depends more on recurrent themes and characters than on a straight, uncomplicated central narrative strand (and in this sense they differ from 19th century serialized novels and novel series which, while portraying heroes and groups of people in a lot of detail, tend to have a stronger/more visible and easier to follow structure)..."Andreea -- thanks for the insights! My sense is that we have a two pronged quasi-circle of Swan's Way and Guermantes Way, which has permitted Proust to keep stuffing material into the middle as he goes, but that is intuitive, based on what is going on in France at the time between the bourgeoisie and the aristocracy and some comment somewhere that Proust "early on" gave himself an overall structure to which he could keep adding, including such major chunks such as those derived from his military service (eventually even published as additional volumes). But whether that all is valid, I have yet to figure out. I am probably trying too hard to lay an overall history of France in this period on the novel's structure.
I see the story as a sensitive boy's, then a man's, search for truth. This is depicted through the structure of a weak plotline about this man's desire from a young age to become a writer, and all the obstacles that arise from within and without to keep that from happening. Until ... well, no spoiler here!
Structurally, again this work reminds me of symphonic music, with themes and characters introduced lightly or briefly early on, only to re-emerge later to be modulated, interwoven in surprising new ways, and vastly expanded upon.
But I'm only seeing this now on my 2nd run-through!
Structurally, again this work reminds me of symphonic music, with themes and characters introduced lightly or briefly early on, only to re-emerge later to be modulated, interwoven in surprising new ways, and vastly expanded upon.
But I'm only seeing this now on my 2nd run-through!
Classics and the Western Canon
Books mentioned in this topic
The Principles of Psychology (other topics)Days of Reading (other topics)
Swann’s Way (other topics)
The Cambridge Introduction to Marcel Proust (other topics)
The Principles of Psychology (other topics)
More...
Even if the term is applied to light of certain wavelengths?
Now, terms like "good" and "justice" and ....
Thanks for the time spent!