Outlander Series discussion
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January Outlander Reread - See post 642 on page 13 for this weeks TOPIC!
Mary wrote: "Lori, I wondered the same thing and I can't see why DG would mention the name "Alex" in that passage between Claire and Jamie and then immediately mention the youngest brother in Claire's remembran..."Oooh. Good thought. They did seem to have a very loving relationship. His brother is a decent, upstanding person. BJR would of course want forgiveness from the best person he knew.
Mary wrote: "...I'm starting to wonder if maybe BJR knew in his black heart that he was sick and twisted, but he wanted love from his curate brother as a redemption of sorts. "And Miss Kate - your thought about wanting forgiveness from the best person he knew - that's brilliant! I never thought of that, either.
That IS a good thought! See, I knew that I could gain a new perspective on all of this, if I just ASKED! LOL - love this group and this discussion - you're all so good at helping solve those puzzles that nag at us.
I'm also glad that I wasn't the only one to wonder about Alex and Jack, especially given that passage and the mention of the genealogical charts. It's what got me wondering... and wandering down some strange paths with no real clues as to whether I was on the right path or not.
But as usual, the "truth" may not be black & white - it's likely those shades of grey that you all are pointing out.
Keep the thoughts coming!
I do not think it was his brother. I agree that it was his obsession with Alex that was in prison there. The one that hung himself. I understand the theory of seeking redemption from the best person he knew, and I even agree with you. I think that's why BJR was always so kind to his brother, and why (view spoiler). I just don't think that trying to get redemption from the best person he knew would come out as having lurid dark fantasies of doing terrible things to his said best person.
I think the name Alex was extremely common. Jamie makes a joke at one point that everyone's name is Alexander or James. I mean, Jamie's own middle name is Alexander. I also think that the reason Alex, the owner of the bible, was introduced in the same book that BJR calls Jamie Alex was for a reason. If BJR was having feelings for his brother, why not give the kid in prison some other name? The brother Alex is introduced much much later.
BJR was twisted enough as it is, I don't think his brother had anything to do with it. I think his brother was introduced into the story to both (view spoiler), and also to show that BJR had a softer side. One that a brother could love.
One last note.. we're all getting awfully close to the spoiler line. nothing too big has been said yet, but I just wanted to drop a friendly reminder to just be aware that we don't say anything too big.
Teresita, I was meaning Ian Sr. But I do agree with you.I'm going to pit your post in a spoiler tag. It's full of spoilers.
I think the hardest transition would be the lack commincation. Waiting weeks for a response, we get things so instantly in current time, that waiting would my biggest transition. For example Claire and Murtagh traveling weeks to find Jamie, now a days someone who is jail is probably the easiest to find.
I have long thought that Alex in this context refers First to his brother, and second to the young prisoner. My thinking is that his love for Bro got twiseted with Pris and turned into something uglier. I doubt that it is purely one or the other. And I confess to being a mental health professional. NOT that it makes my answer any more speculation than anyone elses. I just know that rape, rage and love are all too easily twisted. I don't think DG does ANYTHING by accident.......
Wendy F wrote: "Teresita, I was meaning Ian Sr. But I do agree with you.I'm going to pit your post in a spoiler tag. It's full of spoilers." Sorry Wendy, I may have read what you wrote about Ian too fast and thought you were referring to Ian jr. But yes I agree that he had a close relationship with Ian sr like if they were brothers and I don't recall exactly but I thought that in Scottish Prisoner Jamie said something about his brother William dying at age 11 but then along came Ian sr into his life and loved him like the brother he lost. Same thing with Jamie And Ian jr..etc
Just for Laughs:apropos of our discussion re: BJR/Alex....this is my horoscope today. Cracked me up!January 13, 2012
Libra (9/23-10/22)
Have you been reading a lot of Agatha Christie or P.D. James novels lately? Because when a doozy of a mystery has everyone scratching their heads today, you'll be able to see right past the red herrings, make sense of obscure clues, and discover the truth. You're especially perceptive and meticulous today, so consider applying these skills to a personal mystery that has been vexing you lately. A face-to-face conversation is the only suitable way to gather more evidence.
Wendy F wrote: "I do not think it was his brother. I agree that it was his obsession with Alex that was in prison there. The one that hung himself. Hmmmm....
Maybe BJR had some guilt over the fact that someone he "loved" had chosen eternal damnation (suicide) over living with the fact that he'd been raped by BJR? Although it's hard to believe he felt any guilt over his actions, but then again, he was very kind to his brother, so maybe there are layers of emotion in BJR that aren't very obvious to the reader?
Layers... always layers. I think we see that in DiA with BJR (view spoiler)The "sleuthing" and discussion have helped me at least see the puzzle better... I didn't connect the previous prisoner (Alex) with Randall's comments until this round. As someone (or many said), DG doesn't waste anything - there had to be a reason, besides Jamie's relating to Alex and wanting to take his Bible to his mother, that that particular Alex was in the story. I don't remember reading about that Bible later... does anyone remember Jamie having it in any later book? Or is the assumption that Jamie gives the Bible to Alex's mom at some point? Anyone know?
This weeks topic question!What was something that you missed when you read this book for the first time?
from the discussion above, I missed the part about claire flirting with other guys during the war...and i've lost track of how many times i've read the book over the years ;)
I totally missed that part when I read it in the past too. I've read it a hundred times and only this time did it stick out for me.
and i think if we hadn't been discussing it, I probably wouldn't have realized it in the future
I think so too, I think thats the only reason that one line stood out.
Lori wrote: "Layers... always layers. I think we see that in DiA with BJR [spoilers removed]The "sleuthing" and discussion have helped me at least see the puzzle better... I didn't connect the previous prison..."
I thought he took it or sent it to the mother! I dont know when except that it is of course after BJR is dead. I am waiting to come across it in the reread, so I am not going to search for it now.
I missed the fact that when having her fortune told she was informed that she would have two husbands, and had a very broken life line.I really enjoyed rereading that part as it makes so much sense once you know what happens later.
I still think this would be better with a new thread each week it is easy to miss the new topic.
The reason I don't start a thread for each new topic is because people are still talking about other things and to start a new thread every week would stunt the flow of the reread. The topics are just there for keeping the thread moving and giving new ideas for things that can strike conversation.I do actually post exactly where the new topic question is each monday in the thread title. It tells you what page it's on and which post number to find it.
I didn't remember how much Mrs Fitz taught Claire medical practices such as herbs and leaches. Also, When Jamie takes Claire back to Craigh Na Dun and she sits down to decide what to do,she sits on the ground with her back facing the cleft (and Frank) and looking towards the cottage where Jamie is.I missed that her heart & body had showed her choice before she made the choice in her mind. I have discussed this on another site. There are so many foreshadowings in book 1. The littlest thing can mean so much as we read each book.
Wow Fawn, thats a great one. I definitely didn't realize that she did that. You are so right, her body language already knew where she belonged.I loved how she took two steps toward Frank and was attempting to take two steps toward Jamie but before she knew it she was running down the hill. It gets me every time.
I love that too. I almost felt like running with her! weird huh?
Not weird at all! I always seem to lose my breath a bit in that scene, as though I'm feeling everything with her.
I'm at the part where they are teaching Claire to kill a man with the Dirk the Jamie gave her. I agree, book 1 has soooooo much forshadowing. Before Claire when through the stones every moment was preparing her to be able to survive. I've started my own outlander notebook. Taking notes this time and pasting pictures of what I think the characters look like and my favorite quotes. I'm taking my time with this reread, I'm enjoying it instead of devouring it.
I did the same thing Leea. Because I have so many copies I went ahead and just started highlighting and writing notes in my paperback. I love that moment. I love Jamie so much in this book. Outlander is definitely my favorite in the whole series. There's a magic between Claire and Jamie in the first book that was so beautiful.
Leea, I love the idea notes with pictures and favorite quotes. I love the highlight option on my Kindle and my books have a lot of postie markers in them, but I love your idea of a note book or scrap book. It would be great if you could post us a picture some time! And Oh yea! Did that just get you the 2nd time around with Claire being taught to kill a man. Such foreshadowing! I just love this book!!
It was foreshadowing even for just what would happen in the very next chapter!
Wendy F wrote: I love Jamie so much in this book. ..."Me too. Even before it was obvious that they were meant to be together, I was hoping that he and Claire would become a couple.
I've only read the book in its entirety once, but I went back and re-read the first part of the book. I missed a lot of important info in the beginning - I kind of glossed over all the information about BJR and the Jacobites. Frank bored me into speed-reading...
I did a lot of skimming the first time I read it too. I think when I went back to read it the 3rd or 4th time, thats when I really wanted to read every single word and get the full scope of the book.
i don't think it was until I listened to the audiobook that I realized how much my fast reading caused me to skim without even planning on it
Dee wrote: "i don't think it was until I listened to the audiobook that I realized how much my fast reading caused me to skim without even planning on it"It's almost hard not to! I get so caught up in worrying about the characters that I skip over stuff without even realizing it! On the bright side, though, it means the re-read is more satisfying. :)
Once I'm finished with Outlander I'll post a picture of my Outlander Scrapbook :) I knew I could only share my obsession here because you ladies would understand my madness. I know that the first time I read Outlander, I missed so much of the details because I was so concerned with J and C's welfare. When I first read the scene when Randall takes Claire, when she's going to run back to the stones the first time. A first I was so mad that she put Jamie, herself and the other men in danger. This time I realized how hurt, scared and ashamed it made Jamie feel. He could not protect her, he had to defend her again to Dougal and he loved Claire and did not tell her. I also think in that moment, when Claire was taken, she finally realized she loved Jamie. Just my opinion :)
The first read, I just read it (loved it of course). The second time I read it, I realized I missed how descriptive DG's writing is. From the landscape, to the clothing to the people and what they looked liked and their characteristics. You could close your eyes and be transformed to the Scotland of 1740's.When I read the other books, I was determined to read slightly slower and try not to miss anything.
The part about flirting, the connection between the ghost and Jamie...Probably many little things. I've read the book a lot of times in a relatively short time period, so I don't know what I missed the first time.
Leea, that's a good point. I thought about that this time too. He was in love with her and she ran away from him. I can only imagine how much that hurt on top of having to defend her again, walk into a prison where he was mercilessly flogged, and rescue her from his worst enemy.
Jamie keeps telling her that when he's ready he'll tell her why he married her (favorite scene :) They just got back to the castle and Jamie went to get Clairs ring. She's battling her feelings for Jamie, which I completely understand. He can't control himself with her, it's damn sexy!
He's DAMN Sexy!Him going to get her ring, the fight, and then finally them making up is probably up there as one of my favorite moments in the whole series.
I, too, feel as if in my first and previous readings, I missed many of the small details that really *do* have meaning... like how Jamie must have felt when Claire ran away and he had to rescue her from Ft. William and Randall. I was always so caught up in Claire's side of the story or the love story (and steamy scenes) that I somehow missed the little things. That's why, when I got towards the end of the book, I realized I'd never really understood who "Alex" was, that I asked here. It had always bothered me, but I was too focused on what I knew was happening and on what was coming next to stop and think it through.
Jamie - *sigh*!
I can also say that I appreciate the "honesty" in the sex scenes... in many "romances", the hero holds himself back for what seems like ages to give endless "pleasure" to the heroine. From the scenes in the book, Jamie's approach to sex is much more realistic; he & Claire found their own way through intimacy, forging a unique bond between them that reinforced their "soul mate" status. Claire & Jamie connect on every level, not just physical; and they use their physical couplings to connect beyond just sex... they truly express themselves fully, including whatever emotions they're currently feeling. I have to laugh at the unconventional, wild, and even angry sex that they have - but it's much more like a real couple, rather than a romance hero/heroine.
Those small details and the "reality" - the staying within the deep, rich characters - that's what pulls me in. And I think, that's what makes Jamie, especially, so endearing. He seems more "human" than most romance heroes. (Even if he is rather resilient!)
I am finished with the re-read and trying to wait until March to do DIA. This is torture! I may have to re-read Outlander AGAIN! Yikes!
LOL! Just think, it's only about 5 or so weeks away.
Yeah, I'm trying to clear out my To-Be-Read shelf and clear the nightstand of current library books. They should hold me over until March.Wendy is so kind to keep us going in the meantime!
Yeah, this was such a great idea Wendy. Thanks putting this together and all the Questions you came up with are just great! I just got to the part where Geillis and Claire are taken and tried as witches and I will always be pissed at Laoghair for her part in that. Claire was trying to listen to Jamie and 'stay away from Geillis" but she thought she was in need and went to her. I also some how missed the part in my first read of Outlander where Geillis filles her herb room with smoke and asks Claire "where are you from? and How did you get here"
Poor Jamie and all the English lords and soldiers trying to get beneath his Kilt. Poor Lad of 16.
I'm excited for the scene when Jamie and Jenny face off, haha!
I love the moment when Jamie and Jenny first see each other. I know a lot of people struggle with Jenny, but I really like her. I love how she's not afraid to go toe to toe with Jamie.
I love Jenny, too. She's the softer (at times) version of Jamie.
i don't have my copy handy, but i just thought of one that I remember from my last re-read (when I listened)...there is a scene, one of the first where Claire goes to visit Gellis, and Dougal is with her...Gellis sends her upstairs, and when she shows up a few minutes later, she is breathless/sweaty...can anyone say quickie with dougal ;)
Never really thought of that one! But you never know.I'm at the Wentworth part of Outlander and every time I read this part, my heart just goes to my socks. It's probably one of the most graphic reads of the series and I still get upset with it. Not just the torture part, which was horrible, but what Claire had to deal with afterwards.
Could any of us do what she did? I know we'd all stand by our husbands, wives, significant others, etc... unconditionally, but really, could you do it?
I'm not trying to start another topic, as I'll leave that to Wendy (as she's doing so good of a job).
My feelings will not be hurt, start a topic as much as you want! :)My goal is to keep the conversation going.
I'm going to be honest, I couldn't read that part this time. I've read it so many times, but this time I just couldn't do it. Jamie's time at Wentworth and (view spoiler) are my two hardest scenes to read. It's too gut wrenching.
And I'm not sure I could do what Claire did. It's a good testament to Claire's own strength. We're used to seeing Jamie fighting all the odds and doing what has to be done, but it really shows that Claire is his equal.
I absolutely agree with Dee's suggestion that it was a quickie with Dougal....have since the second time I read it. And Lori, I'm on my third book since finishing the re-read on Friday. Tomorrow the semester starts for the courses I teach, so that will help pass the time......
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Outlander Series
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I was convinced that the relationship between BJR and his brother would be different than it was (as shown in DIA). I'm starting to wonder if maybe BJR knew in his black heart that he was sick and twisted, but he wanted love from his curate brother as a redemption of sorts.