November Random Read--Neuromancer

[Mark]

That was my biggest problem with the book: trying to figure out why the characters were acting the way they did. (view spoiler)[What made Riviera do that? I know Molly hated him for the performance he did of her but why did he hate her in turn? (hide spoiler)]

[Aloha]

(view spoiler)[Riviera was used by Wintermute to influence the Tessier-Ashpools family to get into the compound via his special holographic ability. Unfortunately, Riviera is a rogue sociopath, which Wintermute anticipates, and lets Riviera knows about Molly's past, which tempts Riviera to mess with Molly, which causes Molly to hate him enough to destroy him. But get this, it was all planned out by Wintermute, the AI, who used human psychology to get them to do what it wants. Note how it got Case to hate and Molly to hate, and using each individual's strong hot buttons and desires to manipulate him/her. I think when you know that the whole plot is actually driven by an AI whose motive is to unite with its twin, Neuromancer, then you'll understand the book better. (hide spoiler)]

[Aloha]

Mark Monday, this is what I meant when I say that I love books that are small but pack a punch. I like books that make me work for it. I get bored when it's the opposite, a book that has a zillion words but doesn't really say much that is worth the zillions words.

[Mark]

Case in point: A Dance with Dragons.

[Aloha]

I've never read it....so, pack a punch or word diarrhea?

[Mark]

Major word diarrhea. It's the latest Game of Thrones novel we've waited years for. I read it this year and it took me forever. 1,000 pages could have been edited to around 600.

Back to Neuromancer. Maybe I'm just not smart enough to understand all the understood action in Gibson's prose, but it was gripping and difficult all at the same time.

[Aloha]

That's why Neuromancer is so great.

I'm so afraid to read Fantasy now. A Fantasy is a guaranteed ~1,000 pages. And when it's unsatisfying, it's a major waste of time. Like, I can read 3 Neuromancers during that space of time!

[Mark]

Aloha wrote: "That's why Neuromancer is so great.

I'm so afraid to read Fantasy now. A Fantasy is a guaranteed ~1,000 pages. And when it's unsatisfying, it's a major waste of time. Like, I can read 3 Neurom..."

If you avoid authors like Martin, Jordan, and Goodkind, you can get shorter fantasy. I just started The Last Unicorn and it's under 300 pages.

I've read mostly fantasy and am fairly new to science fiction so I try to switch back and forth between the genres to keep things fresh. After Unicorn, I may start some Phillip K. Dick novels.

[Aloha]

I think I want to read Unicorn for pure enjoyment as a breather between gritty books like Neuromancer, or non-fiction. What girl can resist a unicorn? I love the cartoon movie.

[Brainycat]

Riviera is on Riviera's side.

[Aloha]

Yup. And (view spoiler)[ Wintermute knows that. (hide spoiler)]

[Brainycat]

Warning: Another thread hijack...

Aloha, I just finished the first two thirds of the The Steel Remains series. BEST FANTASY EVER! This completes my consumption of the Richard K. Morgan canon to date, and he's thoroughly cemented himself as my favorite contemporary author.

We now return back to Neuromancer...

[Aloha]

LOL. Let me get my Uzi. I'm wanted in 50 threads for hijacking them. Duly noted about Morgan, Captain. Putting him on my read.

[mark, personal space invader]

point taken, Aloha!

your summation of Neuromancer's narrative and the who-does-what-to-whom-and-why was excellent.

[Weenie]

Mark wrote:"It's the latest Game of Thrones novel we've waited years for. I read it this year and it took me forever. 1,000 pages

GRRM + 1000 pages = Fantasy reading heaven.

Back to Neuromancer - let's just say I'm glad it was a short book!

[Mark]

Just read that Bruce Willis might sign on for the role of Armitage in the upcoming movie. Hmmmm....he does play a crazy man fairly well.

[Aloha]

Thanks, Mark!

mark wrote: "point taken, Aloha!

your summation of Neuromancer's narrative and the who-does-what-to-whom-and-why was excellent."

[Aloha]

Bruce Willis? He's too likable of a character. I kept on thinking of him in that TV show with Cybill Shepherd, with a devil may care smirk, but not sociopath. I'd like somebody that plays handsome, charming, but "deviant" great, like Edward Norton or Gary Oldman. I can imagine those guys in the most sexually deviant scenes.

[Mark]

So if I follow Aloha's explanation:
(view spoiler)[Wintermute used projections of Linda Lee and the toxic sacs inside him to motivate Case, while using Molly's hatred of Riviera to drive her to reach where he was with 3Jane. But Riviera decided not to get 3Jane speak the codes so Case and Molly had to convince her. I'm still a bit puzzled about the background of the Tessier-Ashpool family. The father killed the mother who was creating Wintermute to run the corporation that created Freeside? And then 3Jane in turn tried to kill her father who was already trying to commit suicide? (hide spoiler)]

[Aloha]

Aw, shoot. My post got messed up. Let's see whether I can repeat myself. You got it, Mark. (view spoiler)[The mother came up with the plan to make the family's consciousness immortal via the AI. It would be a collective consciousness, without the pain and loneliness of the individual. Ashpool was incensed when he found out because he likes the status quo, and strangled her. Ashpool is crazy. When Molly encountered him, he had raped (?) and murdered one of his clone daughters (not 3Jane), and was in the middle of trying to commit suicide via pills and booze. He was obviously mad and dangerous, especially since Molly found his daughter's body, and she killed him. (hide spoiler)]

[Oscar]

I also had trouble understanding some of the goings in the novel, which is partly a result of my being slow, lol, but I think that Gibson is playing with perception on purpose and leaving some subtle hints along the way.

Speaking of a novel's length it is impressive that while Neuromancer is relatively short, it seems bigger, and there's a lot going on. It does force reader to read slower which is hard for me to do at times, lol.

An as for fantasy, lol, I still feel bad for Robert Jordan fans who read every long novel of the Wheel of Times series without getting the final novel. :P

[Weenie]

Oscar wrote: "An as for fantasy, lol, I still feel bad for Robert Jordan fans who read every long novel of the Wheel of Times series without getting the final novel. :P "

Fortunately, Brandon Sanderson will be completing the WoT series, having already completed books 12 & 13.

[Aloha]

Oscar, with your knack for reading psychological nuances, I would think Neuromancer is right up your alley. My preference are books that present something to me with multiple facets, forcing me to fill in the blanks many different ways. It's stimulating for my mind that way. Books that present only one thing, as in what you see is what you get, especially if it's lengthy, are boring to me. And if that one thing is dopey, IMO, then I really don't care for it! LOL

I agree that Gibson purposely presented the plot that way. After all, perception via cyberspace is innovative at that time, so it would be what he imagined it would be, throwing in all the hot words, as in holographic projections, etc. He also came from the generation where LSD was a prominent "mind-expanding" drug. I think a person who grew up with the internet and distance fron the 60's influence would have written the book differently. I would say a person of the current internet generation would have written the book coldly and less philosophically. There is something wonderful about writing of authors of the 60 - 70's generation with their metaphysical and philosophical musings. They manage to make everything seem magical.

Oscar wrote: "I also had trouble understanding some of the goings in the novel, which is partly a result of my being slow, lol, but I think that Gibson is playing with perception on purpose and leaving some subt..."

[Mark]

I do enjoy complex books but I think Neuromancer was just out of my reach. I have a strong technology background so that part really appealed to me. But I was 15 when when the book came out so I may be a generation too late to fully appreciate it. I was too young to understand the drug and punk scenes of the 70s and early 80s. Maybe I need to re-read it someday that I understand what's happening. For now, I'm moving to something completely different: The Last Unicorn.

[Aloha]

I'll join you, Mark. Let me play my sweet unicorn music. Oh, wait, I need to get through 1Q84, another dystopia, and a tome to beat all tomes.

[mark, personal space invader]

if The Last Unicorn proves too uplifting, let me recommend to you Rampant, which apparently features fearsome killer unicorns.

[Aloha]

LOL. Now, that sounds a whole lot better. I hope there is some killing or diseases. At the very least, some kinky sex.

[Jason]

Aloha wrote: "I'll join you, Mark. Let me play my sweet unicorn music. Oh, wait, I need to get through 1Q84, another dystopia, and a tome to beat all tomes."

Is IQ84 any good? I keep running into that book!

[Jason]

I usually love books like Neuromancer, but it just didn't work for me. I don't get it. I think it's my mood. I'm going to read it a second time in the future.

This has happened to me a few times. I read a book that will leave little to no impression on me. A couple years down the line, I'll come back and decide to read it again, and I'm blown away. I blame my moody reading habits.

Does anyone else have this problem?

[Aloha]

I have that problem, sometimes in reverse, I would like a book while I'm reading it, then think it's not that great after thinking about it. It's like eating junk food. You relish it while you're eating it, but it's not a full meal. We have bipolar reading habits, Jason.

[Brainycat]

I just experienced that with The Hunger Games. The junk food analogy is absolutely perfect! It's entertaining enough while you're reading it, but in retrospect there's nothing in it to remember.

[Aloha]

I felt the same way about that book. But Aloha Jr. and her friends love it. Since it's a YA, I rated it according to their enthusiasm for it.

[mark, personal space invader]

oh i loved Hunger Games, and it really stuck with me. still has. but then i am an emotionally immature kind of guy, so it figures.

[Jason]

Hunger Games is another book that people have been talking about around here a lot lately. I might have to check it out.

[Brainycat]

Jason, make sure you read my review first ;)

[Jason]

I will, Brainy!

[Mark]

Back to Neuromancer....I wonder how many times Gibson used the word lozenge in the book. Seems like quite a few times...

[Aloha]

Accoording to my word search, only 7 times.

[Brainycat]

But to great effect each time :)

[Mark]

Have any of you read the books after Neuromancer? Are they worth reading?

[mark, personal space invader]

i have read both and - although i had issues with them, similar to Neuromancer - i thought they were worth reading.

[Brainycat]

The rest of the series is every bit as bleak and future-shocky, but I feel they're both a little "warmer" or "more human". I absolutely enjoy them, and have reread them many times.

[Oscar]

Aloha, yeah, I was thinking about how Gibson's age and generation might have affected the manner in which he wrote the novel. I was just thinking the other day how kids in high school for the most part have always have had the world wide web around and as such, they might take the whole concept of the virtual realm for granted. But I think with someone like Gibson who didn't grow up with it was left imagining, dreading, and romanticizing, the direction that computer technology was heading towards.

On another note, I tend to side with a lot of people here that I didn't get into the novel as much as I thought I would. I mean, I like the imagery, and the ideas, and general plot, but I think it was Gibson's writing style that didn't quite really gel with me. It seemed kinda, I don't know, choppy and not fluid enough.

As for Hunger Games, lol, I have been tempted to take a look at those books. I have become a bit more interested in YA books lately. It's a mixed bag because while some YA books are really creative and are universal in the sense that most of us can identify with these books because we remember what it was like to be that age, but some YA leave me cold and I simply can't get into them because of my age. And there is a distinction, I think, between YA lit and books that just happen to be about adolescents.

[Weenie]

Oscar wrote "I mean, I like the imagery, and the ideas, and general plot, but I think it was Gibson's writing style that didn't quite really gel with me. It seemed kinda, I don't know, choppy and not fluid enough."

I think I experienced similar problems, Oscar!

Hunger Games - read it and enjoyed it enough to say I'll be reading the follow ups at some point.

Know what you mean about some YA books and identification, it can be hit and miss sometimes.

Ever tried Patrick Ness' Chaos Walking books? Definitely of the 'hit' variety! :-)

[Mark]

I enjoyed the Hunger Games trilogy, especially the grittiness of Mockingjay. I didn't care for the love triangle among the teenagers but the action and story were actually very good. It will be very interesting to see how they deal with the graphic violence when the movie comes out next year.

[mark, personal space invader]

yeah, i wonder that too. i'm curious if hollywood will go the Battle Royale route and keep all the graphic kid violence, or if they'll somehow soften it.

[Aloha]

I think Neuromancer is one of those books that you have to reread to catch everything.

[Oscar]

Ending (view spoiler)["But the third figure, close behind her,
arm across her shoulders, was himself.
Somewhere, very close, the laugh that wasn't laughter.
He never saw Molly again." What did you guys think about the ending. I loved the imagery that opens up the novel, and here, Gibson ends the book beautifully in my opinion. You could almost see a fade out while strange laughter is heard in the background. I talked about having a hard time with his style at times, but he does come up with some very lyrical lines. (hide spoiler)]

[Aloha]

I love the ending, Oscar. I think one of the reason that Gibson's writing might be hard to comprehend is that he dabbled in poetry and was highly influenced by performance art, which was big in those days. This would make him tend to write in a way that evokes imagery, but may not make sense to the logical mind. I also think that if you are used to narrative writers such as Stephen King, you would have a particularly hard time with Gibson's writing style.

[Oscar]

Aloha wrote:This would make him tend to write in a way that evokes imagery, but may not make sense to the logical mind. I also think that if you are used to narrative writers such as Stephen King, you would have a particularly hard time with Gibson's writing style.

One of my professors said that writers like Gibson and some older scifi writers tend to write with paint strokes, while more recent writers, for example, Neal Stephenson draw everything out. That metaphor is something that stood out and I think it works. For better or worse, and a lot of recent scifi writers, are detailed oriented and that does make it easier to follow along. Gibson's style is more like paint stokes, that is, broader with more implied than detailed. And that's probably why, lol, the novel wasn't as long as many contemporary scifi writers.