The Saxons

[Kevin]

20/20 helped by some knowledge of Old English (Anglo-Saxon indeed!). Most of the alternatives were Latin or Norman French.

[Geoff]

Arthur Fraziers's Wolfshead series of books were the ones that got me interested in things Saxon.



Book 4 (Viking Slaughter) doesn't seem to be in Goodreads database.

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

Wow Geoff, where did you dig up those old boys? Lol. Ihave never seen them before...and I like to think I have seen most. ;)

They look very old school fun, hard to find no doubt.

[Mark]

Geoff wrote: "Arthur Fraziers's Wolfshead series of books were the ones that got me interested in things Saxon.

[bookcover:A Light in th..."

Forgot about them ones, I could only every find the first book.

[Geoff]

Very Old School Fun. Bit dated compared to modern HF.

Hard to find? I didn't even know Books 5 & 6 existed till about 5 years ago! Picked up the first four in a s/h bookshop bout 30yrs back.

I think they can all be chased down on Abebooks.

Arthur Frazier was a pseudonym for Ken Bulmer who did a number of series under his own name and other psuedonyms. His The Vikings (writing as Neil Langholm, eg.Trail of Blood) is also worth checking. And yes this probably should be posted in Vikings thread.

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

Wild cover on that Trail of Blood book. Good grief. Talk about dated!!!

[Lariela]

15/20 on the language quiz.

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

Everybody is doing better than me. :)

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

Posted this in the Bernard Cornwell thread too.
Sorry to those who follow both threads for doubling up your Bernie news. :)

The cover has been released for the new #8 book in the Bernard Cornwell Saxon stories/warrior Chronicles series.

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

I can't wait either. Exciting that he got this one published quicker than he has ever published a new Uhtred before.

[Mark]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-...

[Darcy]

One day, they're going to figure out that 'high status' was really the average Joe. hahah

[Andy]

Prolly all very rich after the Romans scarpered & left us all there gold to be smelted down? A good find though with 20 graves to go through.

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

Darcy wrote: "One day, they're going to figure out that 'high status' was really the average Joe. hahah"


haha. yes. I have often thought this. Wondered if, during many periods of Medieval and Ancient history, there was not the great divide between rich and poor that there is now.
Maybe it was easier to attain a comfortable living in these times. Easier to build a 'high status' house, and accumulate 'high status' objects through trade and opportunity.

[Darcy]

Well, it might also come down to how 'high status' is defined. If it means 'not a slave', then likely they're right. If they mean they're the wealthy class, I'm in line with your thinking

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

Darcy wrote: "Well, it might also come down to how 'high status' is defined. If it means 'not a slave', then likely they're right. "

Nice one. :D

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

I see book four of that Hereward series came out (some countries) in mid 2014. I haven't gotten to the first one.

Here's the series to date.



Edit: the series has two differebt runs of titles.

They are more correctly these ways, depending on country.
and this may be the 5th

Or

< no different title showing for book four

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

I posted this in the Bernard Cornwell author thread a month back. It should really be posted here too. For those not aware of the discussions on the Bernard Cornwell Saxon/Uhtred series that go on over there.

The Last Kingdom is being made into a tv series. I believe they have started filming already.

This is the cast list:
NB: They have not released, yet, any details on who plays what role, other than Alexander Dreymon plays Uhtred, and I think one other was revealed. That's all though.

Alexander Dreymon: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm4101853/
Rutger Hauer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rutger_H...
Matthew MacFadyen: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_...
David Dawson: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Da...
Emily Cox: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2686957/
Ian Hart: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001324/?r...
Tobias Santelmann: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm4083737/?r...
Thomas W. Gabrielsson: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1125938/
Peter Gantzler: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Ga...
Joseph Millson: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0590243/
Alexandre Willaume: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0929654/
Rune Temte: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0854815/
Henning Valin Jakobsen http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1502351/

[Edoardo]

Terri wrote: "Bernie wrote: "I am currently reading the "Saxon" series by Bernard Cornwell and have just finished reading Sword Song. Any one else reading this series or have read it? I am now going to read the ..."

A question for you, Terri. I normally love Bernard Cornwell - he's a consummate storyteller - but the problem I've always had with his Saxon stories is his portrayal of Alfred: having read The Last Kingdom and The Pale Horseman (I've not read any further yet) I could never see why men would follow Alfred - which of course we know they did - as about his only redeeming feature in Cornwell's portrayal seems to be his intelligence. In reality, he was probably the most extraordinary king 'England' (which didn't quite yet exist) has ever had. And, of course, if it was not for Alfred, there never would have been an England. I'd be interested in your take as a huge fan of the series and some knowledgeable about historical fiction.

[Paula]

Edoardo wrote: "Terri wrote: "Bernie wrote: "I am currently reading the "Saxon" series by Bernard Cornwell and have just finished reading Sword Song. Any one else reading this series or have read it? I am now goin..."

Hi Eduardo, I am a great fan of these books, and my favourite period of interest is the late anglo saxon era. I hope oyu don't mind me jumping in here as I know your question was for Terri. I also felt more than a little irritated by Cornwell's portrayal of Alfred, then after awhile i realised that the books are in the first person, therefore we are seeing events from one man's point of view, an anti Christian, pagan opinionated man with his own take on Alfred. Uhtred doesn't like weakness in men, he hates Christianity and all its values, so he sees Alfred in this light. and when I came to terms with that, I was able to see how this colours Uhtred's perception of Alfred. keep perservering though, because as with real life, people's opinions and viewpoints can change...

[Edoardo]

Thank you, Paula. I'm glad to hear that and I'll get back to the series when I can. Given how little people know of this era, it does worry me that the BBC series based on Cornwell's books might be unfair to Alfred, but we shall see.

[Darcy]

The Last Kingdom
The Pale Horseman

[Edoardo]

Darcy wrote: "The Last Kingdom
The Pale Horseman"

Ah, is that a subtle way of pointing out I should have included links to the books in my question? If so, nicely done - lesson learned!

[Darcy]

Well, yes and no.
Yes they should be linked (if not linked in the previous 4 posts).
However, it's difficult to tell who is using the website (where the linking stuff exists) and those using the app (where linking stuff is shockingly absent).
So, if you do find that you were unable to link, just let us know and someone will put it up. But if you are able, then yes, we ask that it be done :)

[Edoardo]

Darcy wrote: "Well, yes and no.
Yes they should be linked (if not linked in the previous 4 posts).
However, it's difficult to tell who is using the website (where the linking stuff exists) and those using the a..."

Guilty as charged! I was using the website, not the app. But I'll make sure to link in future.

[Darcy]

TA :)

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

Wow. I kind of had an epiphany after Paula's post. I had not thought of it in that way.
I loathed Alfred. In every book I have loathed him. I found he had no redeeming qualities and I, just like you Edoardo and you Paula, found him to be very uninspiring.
I found it frustrating that an author who could get a character like UHtred so right, could get a character like Alfred so wrong.
To me, the Alfred in that book was not the kind of man I imagine to be inspirational. A leader of men.

Then Paula points out that the books are given to us in the voice of Uhtred. Of course! Alfred is not going to be the man we imagine he was, because Uhtred would not see Alfred as that man.

Thanks Paula. :) And thanks for posing the question, Edoardo. Or I'd never have gotten Paula's take on things.

[Paula]

Terri wrote: "Wow. I kind of had an epiphany after Paula's post. I had not thought of it in that way.
I loathed Alfred. In every book I have loathed him. I found he had no redeeming qualities and I, just like yo..."

Thanks for the mention Terri. Its for this reason that I don't usually like books told in the first person. However I make an exception with the Uhtred series, after all, Ive come to know him really well.

[Edoardo]

Terri wrote: "Wow. I kind of had an epiphany after Paula's post. I had not thought of it in that way.
I loathed Alfred. In every book I have loathed him. I found he had no redeeming qualities and I, just like yo..."

While I take Paula's point, I suppose this lies at the heart of my problem with Cornwell's Saxon books. I do know a lot about Alfred (I've written a biography of him!) and by any measure he is one of the most extraordinary individuals in history. And yet, you get absolutely no sense of this from Cornwell's portrayal. To put it simply, I find Alfred a far, far more fascinating character than Uhtred. Cornwell doesn't seem to have this problem with his portrayal of Wellington in the Sharpe books, even though he is seen there through Sharpe's eyes too. In the end, I'm left wondering quite what Cornwell has against Alfred. (Terri, what it be all right to give a link to my book on Alfred here? I don't want to spam, but just to show what I mean.)

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

Oh, well, I have to say that there are a lot of books on Alfred that could help with your point. I could link many myself, but this is an historical fiction discussion.

If anybody wants to see Edoardo's non fiction on Alfred, click on Edoardo's name or avatar and you can check out all his books on his profile.

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

Yes, but the thing you're overlooking here, Edoardo is that this is Uhtred's version of Alfred. Not supposed to be the author's and not ours.
The Alfred in the series is seen through the eyes of an arrogant pagan who sees weakness in Alfred.
We shouldn't try and enforce our own views on a person from history, when it is historical fiction. If it were non fiction, that would be a different matter.
I have disliked many portrayals of historic figures before, but I don't take it personally (so to speak) because the author is allowed to use a degree of artistic license.

I know people who really like Alfred in this series. There are Christians who see Alfred in this story not as weak, but as the stronger man, while Uhtred is the weaker one for his lack of Christian faith.

[Paula]

Terri wrote: "Yes, but the thing you're overlooking here, Edoardo is that this is Uhtred's version of Alfred. Not supposed to be the author's and not ours.
The Alfred in the series is seen through the eyes of an..."

I'm sure that there would have been many of Alfred's contemporaries who disliked him for whatever reason. I disliked Margaret thatcher but a century down the line, she might me well admired for her remarkable achievements. You have to remember this if Fiction. Eduardo

[Edoardo]

Paula wrote: "Terri wrote: "Yes, but the thing you're overlooking here, Edoardo is that this is Uhtred's version of Alfred. Not supposed to be the author's and not ours.
The Alfred in the series is seen through ..."

Thank you, Paula and Terri, for your points, and they're certainly well made.

I suppose what I have been circling around is the question: what responsibility does a writer of historical fiction have towards history? As I see it, there are twin, sometimes opposed, demands on a writer of historical fiction: to the story and to history. The logic and demands of storytelling does not always align with history - would any writer have had the lives of Richard the Lionheart or Frederick Babarossa end so ignominiously?

But how far may a writer of historical fiction rewrite history to meet the demands of the story? I'd be fascinated to hear your views - as aficionados of the genre - on this.

[Linda]

Some good points were made in the discussion below. I liked Alfred and Uhtred for their differences and their likenesses. Uhtred was the consumate cock of the walk. He was a bad boy with smarts which are wonderful qualities. Alfred was called 'the Great.' Considering who his parents were, I think he turned out quite well. Alfred grew England in mighty ways. Had he not been devout in his faith, could the course of England's history been different? Because Alfred was real, the author was challenged by history. Uhtred was fictitious, and the author had poetic license. Do you think Uhtred was created in the author's own image?

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

I often wonder if Bernie did put some of himself into Uhtred, Linda. Maybe not physically. :) But definitely in his attitude.

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

Edoardo wrote: " The logic and demands of storytelling does not always align with history - would any writer have had the lives of Richard the Lionheart or Frederick Babarossa end so ignominiously?..."


There is no true Alfred. So the author has not gone against history to create the Alfred he has. Authors of fiction can play around with true figures of history because nobody will ever know what they were really like.
No, the Alfred in the Saxon stories is not a leader of men to Uhtred (and to me) because Uhtred is a pagan and because I am not a Christian.
To a Christian, that Alfred is a leader of men. He was designed to inspire Christians, not pagans. That is true to historical fact.
But his personality can never be based on historical fact because written records cannot be relied upon to define who a person really was.

[Paula]

Edoardo wrote: "Paula wrote: "Terri wrote: "Yes, but the thing you're overlooking here, Edoardo is that this is Uhtred's version of Alfred. Not supposed to be the author's and not ours.
The Alfred in the series is..."

Personally I think there is enough passion, excitement and fascinating events in history to make an amazing enough story without making things up or changing events etc, however i will acccept changes in a historical fiction (as long as its not too outrageous, like Simon de Montfort having fathered Edward I, or Mel Gibson fathering Edward III - or was that William Wallace) providing they leave a historical note explaining what they have changed. I believe that is the responsibility of the historical fiction author, in my opinion.

[Paula]

Terri wrote: "Edoardo wrote: " The logic and demands of storytelling does not always align with history - would any writer have had the lives of Richard the Lionheart or Frederick Babarossa end so ignominiously?..."

I think actions are more telling than words. I usually tend to base my ideas about ah historical character on what deeds they performed, when they are well documented. sometimes you have very little to go on

[Edoardo]

Terri wrote: "Edoardo wrote: " The logic and demands of storytelling does not always align with history - would any writer have had the lives of Richard the Lionheart or Frederick Babarossa end so ignominiously?..."

I don't think this is a religious question but a literary/historical one. Leaving aside for the moment Alfred, which was really the niggle that started me thinking about the whole topic, I'm still trying to work out how far a writer can legitimately bend and twist historical fact when writing historical fiction. I presume we'd all agree that if someone wrote 1066 - and Harold won, then we'd be into speculative fiction/alternate history. But is there a line that should be drawn and, if so, where?

[Darcy]

Hi Edoardo,
We have a thread were we discuss your very question regarding accuracy in historical fiction here
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

[Edoardo]

Darcy wrote: "Hi Edoardo,
We have a thread were we discuss your very question regarding accuracy in historical fiction here
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/..."

Thank you. Very interesting discussion.

[Linda]

Terri, you know Bernie better than I do, but I think his alter ego might be Uhtred.

[Paula]

Linda wrote: "Terri, you know Bernie better than I do, but I think his alter ego might be Uhtred."
I actually think that to be true. When i interviewed him once, I asked him if he was like any of his characters, I can't remember who he said or if he said he was.

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

Darcy wrote: "Hi Edoardo,
We have a thread were we discuss your very question regarding accuracy in historical fiction here
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/..."

She beat me to it. :) I think your discussion on historical accuracy would be served better in that thread as this is for Saxons and Saxon hist fic.

[Paula]

Edoardo I saw your book in my local independent book store! Didn't have enough money to buy it un fortunately but i had a browse it looks great!

[happy]

I finally got around to typing up my thoughts on The Empty Throne

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

[Mark]

http://www.newscientist.com/article/d...

[Dawn]

Ha, those medieval healers were not quite as stupid as some people think. They might have been superstitious but some of those remedies still worked.

[Darcy]

I've just been alerted to this book Godwine Kingmaker

I suspect it may be of interest to one or two folks around here.

[Edoardo]

Paula wrote: "Edoardo I saw your book in my local independent book store! Didn't have enough money to buy it un fortunately but i had a browse it looks great!"

Sorry, I only just saw this, Paula. Would you mind telling me which bookshop that was? I'm always interested to find out where Edwin (I presume it was Edwin and not another of my books) is available. It should be available from your local library as well, if you'd like to read it.