Oliver Twist: Week 04 - Book 1: Chapters XIV - XVII

[Loretta]

Sorry for the slight delay in opening the thread. Please post your thoughts below!

[Malcolm]

Has Oliver's eyes or hair colour been mentioned yet?

[Lynnm]

Some thoughts:

- I was a bit bummed that Oliver didn't get to say with Mr. Brownlow longer. Poor kid can't catch a break. ;)

- I was surprised that Mr. Brownlow let Oliver go by himself to the bookseller. Oliver has just gotten over being ill, and he's just a young boy. Wouldn't you think that he'd send a servant with Oliver?

- Again, I can't help but think that Dickens is far harsher with characters like the Beadle, people who should know better.

- Bill Sykes is a scary dude. And his relationship with Fagin is interesting. Who has the upper hand? It seems as if Fagin defers to Sykes.

- Got to love Nancy's pluck in standing up to Sykes and Fagin.

[Lynnm]

Have we lost everyone already? :-( Down from 29 posts last week to now 4 this week.

So much for the Dickens project.

[Anne]

Lynnm wrote: "Have we lost everyone already? :-( Down from 29 posts last week to now 4 this week.

So much for the Dickens project."

I hope most people are like me and just got behind this week and will come back. I've had a rather eventful week, and I'm still reading this section. I'm going to read the whole book regardless, but I'd like to have people to discuss it with.

[Robin P, Moderator]

This section shows the huge contrast between the comfortable and loving home of Mr Brownlow and the family of sorts established by Fagin. For the Artful Dodger and the other boys the gang is basically their family. It's interesting to contrast with Sam Weller, who felt that growing up on the streets was an advantage. But it was clear that Sam's father had affection for and pride in his son, even if he wasn't often present.
On Malcolm's question, I don't think Oliver's appearance was described even when we get the information that he looks so much like the person in the painting.
People often remark on coincidences in Dickens but sometimes they aren't unrealistic. For instance, in an aside we find out that the boys didn't just happen on Oliver at random when he was going to the book shop. In fact, they had been watching the house since the anonymous Jew had let Fagin know about Oliver selling his old clothes. It was really sad when Oliver had to put those on again. It's as if the clothes are the measure of who he is.
The lower class women do have spunk and independence and a sense of humor (though a dark one), whereas the upper class ladies just seem nice and rather interchangeable.

[Bea]

I seem to remember that one of the reasons Mr. Brownlow might have sent Oliver out alone was to show his friend how much he trusted the boy. And poor Oliver was so proud to be useful.

[Zulfiya]

Robin wrote: "This section shows the huge contrast between the comfortable and loving home of Mr Brownlow and the family of sorts established by Fagin. For the Artful Dodger and the other boys the gang is basica..."
Robin, I think it is a very apt observation about the nineteenth century women. Nancy is definitely not a righteous young woman, but she has a certain appeal and I would even say sexuality. (We all know well that Victorian women could hardly be called sexually appealing). Nancy is a physically warm, but also a harsh character, even a certain femme fatal.

[Jenny]

Nancy's age is unclear. When she first appeared in chapter IX, she, Bet, Charlie and Dodger "went away together, having been kindly furnished by the amiable old Jew with money to spend." I thought she was around the same age as the boys. When she's sent out to find Oliver, she takes the role of sister, not mother. I think she's in her early teens? Maybe as she and the story develops it will be more clear if she's a woman or a girl.

[Zulfiya]

Jenny wrote: "Nancy's age is unclear. When she first appeared in chapter IX, she, Bet, Charlie and Dodger "went away together, having been kindly furnished by the amiable old Jew with money to spend." I though..."

Tis true, tis true, Jenny, there are no exact indications how old she is in these chapters of the book. I thought my statement did not contain spoilers, but I guess subconsciously I have the fully-fledged image of tart with the heart in my head. I read the book two times prior to this reading. First in my early teens (12-13 year old) and then as a requirement for the Victorian Brit Lit. And I also listened to the BBC radio drama based on the book, and due to professional exposure I have heard numerous interpretations of this and many other books by Dickens. I think all this might have influenced the nature of my message.
On the other hand, she was strong enough to catch and drag Oliver, so there might be some hints that she is either in her late teens or early twenties.

[Melanie]

There is a hint of her age soon after Oliver is back from Mr Brownlow's house and she jumps to his defense. She yells at Fagin: "I thieved for you when I was a child not half as old as this. I have been in the same trade and in the same service for twelve years since." We don't know Oliver's age, but if he is around twelve at this point, she has been in Fagin’s employ since she was six and is now eighteen...

[Susan Margaret]

Melanie wrote: "There is a hint of her age soon after Oliver is back from Mr Brownlow's house and she jumps to his defense. She yells at Fagin: "I thieved for you when I was a child not half as old as this. I have..."

Good detective work Melanie!

[Jenny]

Thanks for the info Melanie and Zulfiya.

[Robin P, Moderator]

Some of our threads have disappeared, including the Oliver Twist reading schedule. I'm not sure if it's the next 4 chapters for this week.

[Robin P, Moderator]

Never mind, it must have been a glitch, everything is now visible. My version isn't divided into books but that's not a a problem.

[Karen]

Please do not despair Lynnm. I, at least, am still enjoying these reads - I just got a week behind as I wanted to finish my book for a 'real' local book club. Glad I did - it was an excellent read The Land of Spices. I also handed up my first Open University assignment. Ta da.
I agree with Bea that Mr Brownlow may have wished to show his trust in Oliver; however maybe he should have considered how he met him and that others may want to ensure the silence of Oliver.Sending him back to the scene of the crime was not too clever. Rotten bad luck for Oliver though.
I enjoyed the beginning of Chapter xvii , where Dickens draws each one of us into his confidence about how a story can be told. It felt quite personal.

[Robin P, Moderator]

Yes, I also liked the opening of Chapter xvii. He talks about how stories are told in theater. I believe Dickens was a fan of the theater and performed some himself (before his famous readings in later life.) Maybe one of you knows more about that.
Certainly Dickens mixed the tragic & comic in Pickwick, with the comic in the majority, and here the proportions are reversed.