Is it appropriate?

[Juli]

Okay all it's time for my question. My husband and I are raising his 15 year old niece who has a girlfriend. Her girlfriend is a nice girl, with some interesting hair color choices.

My question is... she has asked if her girlfriend can spend the night, like a regular friend who happens to be a girl would.

Her uncle and I are an emphatic no and she just doesn't get the point. We would feel the same way if she wanted a boyfriend to spend the night but she doesn't see it as her "girlfriend" just a friend who is a girl.

Are we right on this and it's not appropriate or are we being archaic?

[Byron]

Hmmm Firstly, it's your house.. and you are trying to raise her within your moral boundries... so there is no question as to appropriate or archaic..

NOW, just so we are on the same page - The niece has stated that they are together as in a lesbian couple? I mean a lot of girls have girlfriends - both in passing and bff's.. So I just wanted to clarify that point first.

Next thing is - regardless of gender, why do you NOT want the partner staying over??? Do you believe it would be undue influence in a negative context, a religious context, a social standing context (i.e. what will the neighbours say) or is there something else there?

One question I've talked about with a couple of friends with kids.. if not at home are they going to do it else where... This has been in all sorts of manners = sex, drugs, alcohol, porn, smoking.. What are the consequences of these act's being done elsewhere??

I take it you have spoken at length with your niece about consequences??

I'm sorry it's just not an easy question to answer...

For me personally I left home when my folks wouldn't let my b'friend stay over.. (god we didn't even care if we stayed in the same room.. we just wanted to do the late night tv/talking thing - but that's another story) SO I would think if I had a child I'd be sitting down having a LONG talk then a long think and then another talk mentioning (and reminding myself) the things above. Why because NOW I'd be seriously wanting to jump up and down and say NO your my baby.. Also I would be living in fear that they would do what I did..

[Juli]

Byron thanks for the quick reply.


She has definately stated they are in a lesbian couple. The reason that we don't want someone she is in a romantic releationship to spend the night is we don't think it's appropriate.

She's fifteen and I know at that age there is NO way in hell my parents would have let my boyfriend spend the night.

Her mom was an alcoholic and a smoker so I know she isn't in danger of succumbing to either of those as she hates both with a passion, especially alcohol as it's partially responsible for killing her mother.

We should also be good on the sex part as her mom had her when she was 16 and the kid has big plans for her future and a baby isn't in it for a long ways out.

[Byron]

Ok, so let me pose this to you. What's to stop her from going off with this girl else where/at another time??

I do understand your reluctance, and that is NEVER going to sink into her head at the moment.. (honestly think back to that age group and think about how you or your friends accepted statements of no from the parental types!)

You and your partner are WELL with in your rights to say NO! but you both need to sit down and explain to her why you imposing your belief's on her. (god that sounded like I was bagging you there but it wasn't meant to.) This may not satisfy her to start with but it plants the seed of rational conversation and why people say/do things she might not approve of.. (am I teaching you how to suck lemons here?)

Honestly, from that brief description, she sounds like she's had to grow up fast, so in her head she thinks she's a LOT closer to adult status than you see her. I don't think you should allow her. Because then you are standing down from your beliefs, but I don't think you should just blanket down a NO and leave it..

Maybe negotiate a revisit to this topic in 6 - 12 months... (time is an awesome tool some days!)

[Jo]

I've been wrestling with this myself--My daughter has neither a boyfriend nor a girlfriend, and the only friend she ever asks to have spend the night is her bff, who's a gay boy, so it isn't an issue in real life. But I'm a mom, and I think too much.

My husband told me that when his younger sister was 16, their parents gave the sister permission to have sex with her boyfriend at home. My reaction was WTF??? Yes, I get that "they're going to do it somewhere." I'm sorry that this sounds judgmental (this is why I've been wrestling, because I don't like to be judgmental), but "they're going to do it somewhere" is not, in my mind, a good argument for "so we might as well let them do it at home." To me, that's saying, "Hey, honey, you're still a child in our eyes, and you're too young to deal with all the consequences of sex, but here's your bed, why don't you be comfortable while you get laid?" Um...how about "Hey, honey, you're still a child and you're too young to deal with all the consequences of sex, so DON'T HAVE SEX TILL YOU'RE OLDER"?

Juli,I agree with your stand on the subject. If my daughter had a boyfriend or girlfriend and told me they were in a relationship, that person would not be allowed to spend the night at our home. For me, personally, it's a matter of the morals I teach my own children; I've been telling them since they were 9 or 10 that yes, I realize teens have sex, yes, I realize they might want to, but that I would like them to at least wait until they're out of high school. And I'm not going to do anything to encourage or facilitate sex while they're still in high school. (With the one exception that I've also told them that if they choose to have sex sooner, I want them to tell me so I can help them get birth control. In that case, it would be a matter of my wish for them not to follow in their father's family's tradition of teen mothers winning over my wanting them to wait.)

Juli, I do have one comment about something you said. You say that since her mother was a teen mom, you don't think you have to worry about your niece having sex because she doesn't want to get pregnant. But if she's in a lesbian relationship, pregnancy wouldn't be an issue anyway, right?

Like I said, I know this sounds judgmental, and I'm sorry about that. This is how I feel about the subject in relation to my own children. Other people can raise their children as they see fit; it isn't my business, and it isn't up to me to agree or disagree. It may be worth noting that I was raised by a mother who has some very negative, somewhat warped thoughts about sex, and that because of things that were done to me as a child, sex is an incredibly uncomfortable topic for me. So a lot of my problem with the idea of letting one of my daughters have a sleepover with a romantic partner comes from someone who's kind of messed up anyway.

(And despite my personal opinions, I do have a few teenage characters in my books who are sexually active, including one whose mother complains when he brings his girlfriend home to spend the night but doesn't tell him he can't bring her.)

[Byron]

Jo.. it's not about being Judgemental... As a parent/guardian you want to do right by the child.. (well you guys do..)

Don't beat yourself up over how you feel (I just don't see it as being judgemental!) As to your books, that's the thing - we know the difference between fiction and reality... your trying to guide your child as you would like her (him/them) to grow up. With your morals and beliefs. Sometimes the line between fiction and reality is blurry when your a teen in the first stages of a romance.. OR you just don't have the knowledge to pick the difference between love/lust.. OR you feel you have something to prove..


I honestly think IF I had a child I would freak out big time on them if they wanted to embark on a sexual relationship. I'd do everything I can to get them to wait... not for religious/moral reason's but because I want them to be 100% sure before entering into something that can/will induce heartache - and god forbid pregnancy.. and then there is the whole disease factors and a myriad of other little things that go through my head when I think about a child in a relationship..

BUT, I don't see the harm in having dialogue about it with the child. get them to explain why they feel they want to, explain why you don't want them to. And hopefully you'll both be reasonably open to each other's ideas.

I'm not sure I could even accept it for a child at 15.. but that I guess is hypocritical of me because I made the decision to leave home based on the fact my parents wouldn't let me have my boyfriend over.. If they had would things have been different.. who knows..


KEY WORDS for this topic;
Communication
Explanation
Acceptance
Openness
HONESTY

(Hmmm sounds like the foundations for building great relationships O_o)

[[deleted user]]

I totally understand your reasonings behind not wanting her girlfriend wanting to sleep over, but perhaps compromise could be had? Maybe they really do want to do the "girlfriend" thing and not the GIRLFRIEND thing.

Maybe you can do a trial run, with the understanding that no hanky panky goes on, and at lights out time, one of them can have the bed, the other the couch?

As I said before, I totally get you not wanting a lover sleeping over, regardless of what sex they are, but I also think she's going to feel punished simply because of her orientation. (and I'm not saying YOU see it that way, but that she likely would) She probably (hopefully?) just wants to do what all girl friends do- sit up, gossip, listen to music, eat junk food, and just have fun.

Also, I totally think Byron is totally right- long talks need to be had on this topic before anything is decided. Be open, non-judgmental, but explain why you feel the way you feel.

[Jo]

Thanks, Byron.

Despite my own issues, I do try to keep an open, honest dialogue with my kids (well, at least my 16-year-old; my 13-year-old is high-functioning autistic and tends to hide under her bed if I mention the word "sex", either that or tell me I'm being gross)and explain to them what I believe and why. At least, the non-messed-up parts of why.

With my characters, the one who brings his girlfriend to spend the night has pretty much been raising himself and his mother since he was five (his mother's mentally ill). The way I established the character, it wouldn't have made sense for him not to be sexually active, and it wouldn't have made sense for his mother to pitch a fit about him having his girlfriend over. The characters I have who are sexually active, it's part of their character. It wouldn't make sense for them not to be. On the other hand, the characters who are not sexually active have logical reasons other than just "it isn't right to have sex before marriage/before age 18/whatever" because I'm actively trying not to force my own morals on teens. So it's part of those characters', um, character not to be sexually active, and it wouldn't make sense if they were. (Plus if one of them was, the entire universe would be destroyed...it makes sense in the context of the series.)

[Byron]

Jo wrote: "Thanks, Byron.

Despite my own issues, I do try to keep an open, honest dialogue with my kids (well, at least my 16-year-old; my 13-year-old is high-functioning autistic and tends to hide under he..."

Good lord Jo.. At the tender age of 41 I still won't discuss sex with my mother, and I'd go into a coronary melt down if my mother tried to talk about it with me.. BUT then again that's a woman who thinks my being gay is an insult to her personally *LOL* (It's a strange relationship..)

BUT once my dad got over the whole 'gay' thing he and I have had many an amusing discussion.. He was VERY OPEN and HONEST with me and my choices of b'friends.. NEVER judgemental. Sadly it wasn't until after I'd left home and grown up for a couple of years though..None of which helps Juli right now!

[Jo]

Ah, you and I are the same age :) I try not to discuss sex with my parents either, my mother because of the warped-ness and my father because it's just embarrassing. LOL. Though both of them know I write erotic romance, and ordered a copy of my first M/M novel...I've cautioned my daughters without going into detail that I have reasons why the topic of sex makes me uncomfortable, and that I want them to talk to me if they have a question or concern and to understand that if I'm having trouble talking about it, it's because of me, not because of them.

Back to helping Juli...honesty is definitely key. I still agree with not allowing the girlfriend to spend the night, but I think it would be worth talking to your niece and finding out why she wants to have the sleepover. Maybe, as Smut Bitch said, at some point in the future you could open the discussion to the possibility of having the girlfriend spend the night in a different room.

I know a lot of parents who won't allow their daughters to have "boys who are just friends" sleep over, or their sons to have "girls who are just friends" sleep over. I ran into opposition from my ex-husband when I started letting my 16-year-old's bff sleep over, even though my ex knows that the boy is gay and has zero interest in my daughter as anything other than a friend. (And no, my ex and I weren't together when that started, and he lives in a different state. He just likes to be a jerk.)

When it comes to a teen who is lesbian or gay, I wonder if it gets a little blurred for parents, though. Using the logic that a boy shouldn't have a female friend sleep over, or a girl shouldn't have a male friend sleep over, does that mean that a girl who's lesbian shouldn't have any girls sleeping over but it's okay if boys do, or that a gay boy shouldn't have any boys sleeping over but it's okay if girls do?

I'm getting too analytical now...maybe I should go do some writing. LOL

[Summer]

Juli, I am raising my cousins three children. I know of the added pressures this brings. My oldest is 12 and moved in with us when she was 6. She has seen more in those 6 years than I care to think about. It is hard to raise someone elses child. This is your home. You need to make sure everyone in your is safe. I would sit them both down and explain why you have concerns then hear the couple out. They are going to experiment and things, I would just be honest with them. My kids have birth parents that lie all the time. I make sure I am always open and honest with them, that way they feel safe coming to me. Good luck! I hope things work out. I didn't want to tell you what to do, sorry if vague.

[Yvonne]

On the positive side, it looks like you have a good enough relationship with her that she was able to tell you that this is not just a friendship & that she has romantic feelings towards this girl. She could have just pretended they had a regular friendship and you would have given in easily on the sleepover.

Based on this fact, you may want to have more of a discussion with her on this topic. You may need to find out how far has this relationship gone. Is she sexually active? What's her plans on this. Why did she want a sleepover.

An adamant no way may feel like the right response but teens can respond negatively to that. You may want to tell her you'll revisit this topic.

It also depends on how well you know her. I told my teenage son no on quite a few things (and yes on many) but he is the type to initially get mad about things, blow up first then think about it and come up with something else to do. (He is very good with the alternate plans). I knew he wouldn't run away over things. If you know her, then you can probably predict how she'll react.

As always, you can't parent by fear. You have to do what you believe and what's right for your family.

[Kaje]

That's a tough one. I'd say let the friend sleep over in separate rooms. Show you understand how important together time is but that you don't think they are old enough for the intensity of full on sex. I don't think I would police it heavily (esp. since with two girls some of the biggest physical risks are absent.) You can never police it enough to stop a determined teen, and sometimes the best way is to give them as much trust as you can, and hope that they will respond by trying to be worthy of it. I wouldn't just let them sleep together at that age myself. I think the legal age of consent can be a good tool to explain that to them, since fifteen is below that everywhere (Romeo-and-Juliet legal exceptions just mean no prosecution, not that you as an adult should condone it.) Let them cuddle and then separate for the night.

But there's never an easy answer. I let my daughter leave home as a very young college sophomore, knowing she would be getting into the college dating scene and I would have no say in it from 1000 miles away. Sometimes you have to judge the individual maturity level of the kid involved. (I did make darned sure she was over the age of consent in the state she was going to, and talked the issue to death. But by being open I kept communications between us; she told me about her first boyfriend rather than hiding it.)

[Lola]

I think the fear of your child hanging out with the wrong crowd or putting them-selves in bad situations is a fear of any parents. However, direct interference often met with resistance and maybe even motivate the child to do the exact opposite. Children is best taught at an young age about the real world. Whatever the child do, it is the responsibility of the parents/guardian, not the teachers, because it is the responsibility of the parents/guardian to raise the children. Children are like puddy, parents/guardian mold them into a shape which they will then grow. Real parenting cannot be substituted with teachers.[And of course there are teachers out there that really do care for children and actually do have a positive influence] Very few parents can actually find time and bring up children well enough to actually give the children the freedom to choose their own path. For these very few parents, an authoritarian guardianship is not necessary because the children are well brought up and well taught.

My parents were authoritative to the point of madness yet negligent about other things. Basically, this means "Don't get in trouble or I'll beat you with this 3 feet stick. And don't come to me with your problems". Can't say that's good parenting.

[Kaje]

If your kids can't come to you with their problems, then you're not really parenting. I'm sorry your folks had this attitude, and glad you got beyond it.

[Lola]

Kaje wrote: "If your kids can't come to you with their problems, then you're not really parenting. I'm sorry your folks had this attitude, and glad you got beyond it."

Ah, I was religious so I had a guide of a sort. The sort that never answers back. And then I realize my own conscience was a better guide and I started listening to that.

When I was in college, almost 75% of the girls were messing around with guys or girls or both. It's just college. They never tell you the things they did. Sorority and Fraternity have some of the worst activities. I'm afraid once kids are in college. Their mental state changes. It goes from "I shouldn't do this because my parents blah blah" to "I'm an adult, a real free adult living by myself and my mates. I can do whatever I want". And it often happens very good kids involve themselves in questionable activities once they get to college.

[Kaje]

Ares wrote: "And then I realize my own conscience was a better guide and I started listening to that...
And it often happens very good kids involve themselves in questionable activities once they get to college. ..."

I'm glad you found some guidance. Hopefully that same conscience guides the college kids. No doubt there is an element of going a little crazy tasting freedom when kids first get out of the house, but most survive and learn from it. I know my husband cut loose from a religiously narrow upbringing at college and he still looks back on it as the best time of his life even though he wouldn't want to know whether our daughter is doing the same.

[Lola]

Kaje wrote: "Ares wrote: "And then I realize my own conscience was a better guide and I started listening to that...
And it often happens very good kids involve themselves in questionable activities once they g..."

College is definitely an interesting time in anyone's life. And I think children should take more classes in philosophy. It really helps you to understand the world better and makes you a more interesting person. At least after I took several philosophy classes, I felt more confident, more matured, and more relaxed.

[Lola]

Hey, aren't you the person who wrote Like the Taste of Summer?

[Kaje]

Ares wrote: "Hey, aren't you the person who wrote Like the Taste of Summer?"

Yeah, that was me. You read it?

[Lola]

not sure.....was it erotica? If it was, I probably didn't read it.

[Kaje]

Not much erotica in that one - a marginally explicit scene with the two guys' hands on each other. Just wondered why you associated me with Summer specifically, unless you'd read it. Actually it straddles the line for YA-appropriate material, I think. (Unlike my novels which definitely are over on the adult side.)

[Lola]

Kaje wrote: "Not much erotica in that one - a marginally explicit scene with the two guys' hands on each other. Just wondered why you associated me with Summer specifically, unless you'd read it. Actually it ..."


Meh, always curious about MM authors on this site. At the moment, I am not reading any MM books.

[Kaje]

Well, hopefully you are finding other satisfying reading.

[Lola]

Kaje wrote: "Well, hopefully you are finding other satisfying reading."

No, just busy with work.

[Kaje]

Ares wrote: "Kaje wrote: "Well, hopefully you are finding other satisfying reading."

No, just busy with work."

Bleh, reading time is like breathing time - essential. Well, I hope then that it eases off for you eventually and you have time for recreational goodness of whatever variety amuses you.

[Darkm]

Juli wrote: "Okay all it's time for my question. My husband and I are raising his 15 year old niece who has a girlfriend. Her girlfriend is a nice girl, with some interesting hair color choices.

My question ..."

Juli is a bit hard for me to help here because I don't think I would have any problems with sleep-overs if they are 15 or more. :)

If you don't want for her to have people in that way just sit with her and tell her what are your beliefs. It's your house, it's expected that there are your rules.

[Lola]

Darkm wrote: "Juli wrote: "Okay all it's time for my question. My husband and I are raising his 15 year old niece who has a girlfriend. Her girlfriend is a nice girl, with some interesting hair color choices.

M..."

Lol, if I has my own house, I would make the rule that everyone that comes in have to knee and bow to the Lolcat poster I have on the wall. :D

http://www.dailyhaha.com/_pics/ceilin...

[Darkm]

Lol Ares!
I want that poster too :D

I don't have many rules and I believe in discussing them anyway, but I think as long as we are willing to explain it should be fine.