A Clash of Kings
discussion
Sansa Stark is a strong character (no, really)
in the first book I found Sansa boring, after that She grew stronger! I love the Sansa chapters now!
I agree, I also didn't like her chapters in GoT, but I started liking her in CoK. Her story gets more exciting and her character development is also more interesting chapter from chapter. I don't enjoy her chapters as much as Tyrion's or Jon's but at least she moved up from the group of always boring chapters - where Catelyn Stark still is.
I dont' think I began to like her character until Feast of Crows and that was mostly because of what we saw from Petyr.
Minne wrote: "really she is weak and always following orders in feast of crow she was more motherly to robert and petyr is a perb ,love tyrion"
I still have to disagree that she's weak. Considering her situation of course there are things she could do better, but she hasn't had a breakdown or completely been shattered like a weaker person might have. She puts on a brave face, which takes a lot of guts -- and a different kind of courage than fighting, like the men in the story do. She's complex and developing, I'd argue more complex than Tyrion because she hasn't found who she is yet.
I still have to disagree that she's weak. Considering her situation of course there are things she could do better, but she hasn't had a breakdown or completely been shattered like a weaker person might have. She puts on a brave face, which takes a lot of guts -- and a different kind of courage than fighting, like the men in the story do. She's complex and developing, I'd argue more complex than Tyrion because she hasn't found who she is yet.
I think Sansa is the most relatable character in these books. I love that Laura reminded us that she's 12 years old and no 12 year old can handle these situations well. Sansa was raised to believe that a prince will come along and take care of her and when that went entirely to shit, she relied on the only life skills she has, which were how to be a dignified lady. Granted, these life skills don't physically protect her or really get her out of these situations, but she gets through them with grace and self respect and that's something a lot of characters can't say. I love her and I know that she is going to become a massive force in these books in her own right.
I agreed. I hated her in the first book, but in A Clash of Kings, she began to grow on me. I also thought that it is not easy to be resilient living among enemies, but she do. Haven't read the third one yet, so I am waiting to be surprised and hope she grow up to my expectations.
I have read all of the books, Sansa becomes a pawn in the Lannister world and handles herself quite well. I predict that she will be the savior for the Stark family.
Nancy wrote: "I have read all of the books, Sansa becomes a pawn in the Lannister world and handles herself quite well. I predict that she will be the savior for the Stark family."I've wondered about that possibility, too. I've also wondered if she'll be the last Stark standing at the end....
IUHoosier wrote: "Nancy wrote: "I have read all of the books, Sansa becomes a pawn in the Lannister world and handles herself quite well. I predict that she will be the savior for the Stark family."
I've wondered a..."
OMG DON'T TELL ME WHO DIES. D:< I've only read A Clash of Kings. I'm afraid Robb's going to die really soon, since Theon had that vision.
Anyway, despite her occasional silliness, Sansa shows a huge amount of maturity for a 12yo in that kind of situation. She covers her bruises - literal and figurative - and soldiers on. She also doesn't become cynical and hateful (like Arya); she manages to hold onto her hope, ideals, and innocence, which for someone who's been through what she has is incredible.
I've wondered a..."
OMG DON'T TELL ME WHO DIES. D:< I've only read A Clash of Kings. I'm afraid Robb's going to die really soon, since Theon had that vision.
Anyway, despite her occasional silliness, Sansa shows a huge amount of maturity for a 12yo in that kind of situation. She covers her bruises - literal and figurative - and soldiers on. She also doesn't become cynical and hateful (like Arya); she manages to hold onto her hope, ideals, and innocence, which for someone who's been through what she has is incredible.
Laura wrote: "IUHoosier wrote: "Nancy wrote: "I have read all of the books, Sansa becomes a pawn in the Lannister world and handles herself quite well. I predict that she will be the savior for the Stark family...."....just hold on to that thought, while you go on and read the rest of the books. No spoiler, but a lot happens to Sansa, as well as Arya.....
IUHoosier wrote: "Nancy wrote: "I have read all of the books, Sansa becomes a pawn in the Lannister world and handles herself quite well. I predict that she will be the savior for the Stark family."I've wondered a..."
While the story has not ended......I have read through the 5th book, and a lot happens to Sansa...and Arya, as well. I would like to note that..."I really did not see that coming!".....I encourage everyone to read them all.....:)
Nancy wrote: "Laura wrote: "IUHoosier wrote: "Nancy wrote: "I have read all of the books, Sansa becomes a pawn in the Lannister world and handles herself quite well. I predict that she will be the savior for the..."
I'm glad to hear that they survive. The girls have both lost their wolves, which makes me afraid for their own survival in their future...especially Sansa, whose wolf is dead. Arya's is just lost, like she is. :) I love the parallels between the Stark kids and their wolves. Also I wondered at first if Robb would marry Asha, because of the Black Wind/Grey Wind thing...but she's married. And pregnant. Oh well. Maybe they kill each other, instead. :P
I'm glad to hear that they survive. The girls have both lost their wolves, which makes me afraid for their own survival in their future...especially Sansa, whose wolf is dead. Arya's is just lost, like she is. :) I love the parallels between the Stark kids and their wolves. Also I wondered at first if Robb would marry Asha, because of the Black Wind/Grey Wind thing...but she's married. And pregnant. Oh well. Maybe they kill each other, instead. :P
Casey wrote: "Laura wrote: "Nancy wrote: "Laura wrote: "IUHoosier wrote: "Nancy wrote: "I have read all of the books, Sansa becomes a pawn in the Lannister world and handles herself quite well. I predict that sh..."
She *is* married, though, isn't she?
She *is* married, though, isn't she?
Sansa comes off much better on the second reading of the series. She's far more complex on the second reading and as someone said before she is a master at hiding her feelings and her abuses. Where this is going to take her is hard to know but hooking up with Littlefinger is probably a smart move for her.
I have the same opinion. In the first book I really hated Sansa, but by the second book I started really liking her. I related to her, I felt pity for her situation, and I liked her chapters a lot. She's really strong, the way she handled herself, using her politeness and everything she has learned to shield herself from Joffrey. By the fourth book her chapters were some of my favourites (in the fourth book, specially, as few as they were.), and I really missed them in the 5th book... Arya is lost, but Sansa still remains the same, she hasn't forgotten who she is, and she's becoming smarter. I'd like to see her at Winterfell in the end. And I hope she learns some tricks from Littlefinger, I really do!
Minne wrote: "well ,lets see what happen in the 6 book ,because now that jon is dead it live arya, bran, sansa and their little brother left from the stark family well an the mom ,is can like a ghost mute old l..."...and don't be so certain that Jon is dead, Milesandre is right around the corner, I predict that Jon will not be dead.
Teresa wrote: "I have the same opinion. In the first book I really hated Sansa, but by the second book I started really liking her. I related to her, I felt pity for her situation, and I liked her chapters a lot...."Littlefinger has magic up his sleeves....
Minne wrote: "well ,lets see what happen in the 6 book ,because now that jon is dead it live arya, bran, sansa and their little brother left from the stark family well an the mom ,is can like a ghost mute old l..."SPOILER.....SPOILER.....SPOILER.....SPOILER.....
I read and interview with GRRM and when he was asked about Jon his answer was "Oh now, you think he's dead?" I guess I would be very surprised if he was.
MARILYN wrote: "Minne wrote: "well ,lets see what happen in the 6 book ,because now that jon is dead it live arya, bran, sansa and their little brother left from the stark family well an the mom ,is can like a gh..."yep, Melisandre....is very close by...you have seen what she could do, if you read the books....Jon isn't dead...
Tnx for spoiling the last book for me...use <\spoil er> next time Please...
Nancy wrote: "MARILYN wrote: "Minne wrote: "well ,lets see what happen in the 6 book ,because now that jon is dead it live arya, bran, sansa and their little brother left from the stark family well an the mom ,..."not a spoiler here...just speculating.....I speculate that Melisandre comes through for Jon....
I dont mean you because I stopped reading after the huge spoiler about Jon!
Haha, please, no spoilers. I'm only on the third book! Littlefinger creeped me out, and I haven't gotten to the part about him hooking up with Sansa, but hey, it's not like anyone else was doing anything to help her, so...
...Also, whenever GRRM "kills" someone, you have to actually see them die to know they're dead. Example: Theon and Davos are implied to have probably been killed in A Clash of Kings, but they turn out to be alive in the next books. Same with Bran and Rickon. And, if my theory's right, same with baby Aemon (Rhaegar's son). Unless he writes that someone throws the character down and cuts off their head, like with Ned Stark, I'm wary of declaring them safely dead.
I think the reason Sansa comes off as being so pathetic early on is because we see her in contrast to Arya who is bold and fearless. Sansa is a typical kid whereas Arya is extraordinary.
Nelly wrote: "I think the reason Sansa comes off as being so pathetic early on is because we see her in contrast to Arya who is bold and fearless. Sansa is a typical kid whereas Arya is extraordinary."That's a good point. Reading A Game of Thrones you kind of expect ALL of Ned's children to be "bold and fearless" which, as you pointed out, isn't the case with Sansa. It automatically sets you up to be disappointed in her character which is kind of a shame since she really is just a normal little girl reacting to her circumstances like most other girls her age would.
Will wrote: "Nelly wrote: "I think the reason Sansa comes off as being so pathetic early on is because we see her in contrast to Arya who is bold and fearless. Sansa is a typical kid whereas Arya is extraordina..."I agree with both you and Nelly. Sansa only seems so annoying because the first time you look at her is through Arya's eyes, and Arya feels she's less loved than Sansa. As Arya's a character so easy to simpatize with, you are influenced by her opinion on her sister. And Bran and Jon are really tough too. But if one looks at Sansa realistically, it's only natural that she's the way she is. She's just a little girl, with her head full of dreams, like any other girl her age... you can't blame her for that.
I agree; Sansa's just a normal kid. But she's got the Stark steel in her too -- just buried a little deeper, and her "steel" is not an actual sword like with Arya, Jon, and Robb.
She might start out as a dreamy little girl, but I love her scenes in the third book where she actually spends time with girls her age who haven't been through what she has, and thinks about how naive they are and how naive she was. She also starts thinking like more of a plotter...which isn't surprising, seeing as how Cersei is the only strong female/mother figure in her life after book 1.
She might start out as a dreamy little girl, but I love her scenes in the third book where she actually spends time with girls her age who haven't been through what she has, and thinks about how naive they are and how naive she was. She also starts thinking like more of a plotter...which isn't surprising, seeing as how Cersei is the only strong female/mother figure in her life after book 1.
I am starting to really love Sansa's chapters. She's still not a favorite character but she is getting there. I really love it when characters grow and change in the books, and who has changed in these books as much as Sansa? I totally agree with the last few posts -- she's just a typical little girl and she has had to deal with so much. I went through a lot of horrible things at a young age and I reacted almost exactly like Sansa did to them -- I got stronger, I hid the pain, I moved on a stronger person -- a totally realistic portrayal of a young, confused, scared girl.
You really do sum up my feelings on Sansa well.
The only thing I really dislike about Sansa is how she could be nicer to Tyrion, but isn't...I suppose you can't blame her for that. Presumably, she hates him more for being a Lannister than anything, but you have to wonder -- if he was a *handsome* Lannister, would she like him better...? She appreciates his kindess, I suppose, she just resents being married to him (Book 3).
Laura wrote: "I agree; Sansa's just a normal kid. But she's got the Stark steel in her too -- just buried a little deeper, and her "steel" is not an actual sword like with Arya, Jon, and Robb.She might start..."
She grows through the books due to all the decent characters being killed off. She truly is just as dull in book 3 as book 1.
Andrew wrote: "She truly is just as dull in book 3 as book 1"
Wow, don't you think that's a bit harsh? Sansa might be ordinary, but she's never *dull.* Her chapters get more and more interesting as she gets closer to more of the action, as well. She also changes when she gets her period, gets married, etc. ... Physically and mentally. And since when do all the good characters get killed off? In book 3 we've still got Tyrion, Jon, Samwell, Brienne, even Jaime and Sandor Clegane if you count them as halfway decent.
Wow, don't you think that's a bit harsh? Sansa might be ordinary, but she's never *dull.* Her chapters get more and more interesting as she gets closer to more of the action, as well. She also changes when she gets her period, gets married, etc. ... Physically and mentally. And since when do all the good characters get killed off? In book 3 we've still got Tyrion, Jon, Samwell, Brienne, even Jaime and Sandor Clegane if you count them as halfway decent.
Thank yoooou; finally some Sansa love here.I started hating her character but now she's my absolute favorite. She acts exactly how all pre-teen girls act: like a total idiot.
She's at the age where the most important thing is Johnny Everteen, captain of the football team, asking her to the homecoming dance because -omigosh he's so dreamy and we're going to love each other forever just like a Disney movie. Why can't my family just back off and stop embarrassing me? I'm so much smarter and more mature than them.
Then she just gets punched in the face with reality.
But that's exactly what it's like to grow up. You think your an adult and that you know what "real love" is, and what you should be doing what your life but you don't. Sansa was so naive because she thought she had it all figured out and even abandoned her family (with that whole wolf incident) just for the sake of having that picture perfect life she built inside her head.
Was it stupid? YEAH. Did it make me want to break my book in half? OF COURSE. But that's what it's really like to grow up. I love reading her chapters and seeing how much she's grown up. She's more world-weary and less niave than most girls her age now, and feels incredible regret for what she did. Her character just seems a lot more real and relateable.
Cee wrote: "Thank yoooou; finally some Sansa love here.
Book 4 made me really not only love but respect Sansa. She's still being used -- but she actually realizes that now, and is starting to assert control of her own. More importantly, she has learned to keep a goddamned secret. She's such a survivor. In many ways, her development is like Dany's, only slower.
Book 4 made me really not only love but respect Sansa. She's still being used -- but she actually realizes that now, and is starting to assert control of her own. More importantly, she has learned to keep a goddamned secret. She's such a survivor. In many ways, her development is like Dany's, only slower.
Sansa gets better when she grows older. I think the series did right by her character by casting her to be sixteen or so.
Nancy wrote: "I have read all of the books, Sansa becomes a pawn in the Lannister world and handles herself quite well. I predict that she will be the savior for the Stark family."I've also gotten that impression that she'll wind up being the savior for the Starks, or at least the one who draws them all back together.
Isn't it just character development? :DShe starts being prim, irritating and wet so that (I presume since I'm on Book 3 at the moment) she can become a stronger person.
But yes she's an interesting character. More to the point (MILD SPOILER ALERT :) - why didn't she flee with The Hound when he offered to escape with him?)
I can understand why you wouldn't want to go with him (he is a bit scary/creepy but one of my favourite characters), but it would have made sense to get out of there, out of the Lannister court. :)
Martin's characters make a lot of bad decisions, starting with Ned.
Joe wrote: "Isn't it just character development? :DShe starts being prim, irritating and wet so that (I presume since I'm on Book 3 at the moment) she can become a stronger person.
But yes she's an interes..."
Sure it would have made sense to get away from the Lannister court... but
The king by this time is well-known for playing mind games with her. The people she has trusted have either been killed or betrayed her. This already scary/creepy guy has a pretty bad reputation AND seems to be working for the king. Even though he's doing a lot of complaining about the king to Sansa, he's not really acting the same way in front of anyone else.
The Hound is a fantastic character, but the fact that she DIDN'T escape with him was probably the first indicator of her growing up.
Patrick wrote: "Joe wrote: "Isn't it just character development? :DShe starts being prim, irritating and wet so that (I presume since I'm on Book 3 at the moment) she can become a stronger person.
But yes she'..."
I wouldn't call it growing up, at best maybe starting to 'get' what has been 'taught' to her over and over. How life isn't fair, people can't be trusted and or have their own selfish agendas, etc.
I say 'maybe starting' because after that she still clings to willful childish ignorance. Of all the characters I think she endures maybe the 'worst' being all on her own in the lion's den so to speak.
Initially I gave her more slack than I wanted for that reason as well as being young. As time/books went on I lost patience with her and again viewed her less favorably than I did.
Laura wrote: "I've read a lot of posts on discussions of these books that hate on Sansa as a weak, boring, or uninteresting character. Don't you think that's a little harsh? The kid's 12, for crying out loud. Sh..."I think she's just a product of being raised in an environment where that was possible and now everything is changing. When the books start, and for most of her life, she's been coddled and made to focus on girly things - with the Septa and all.
Everything is a huge game change for her from the moment Robert comes up to make Ned his Hand, and all the stuff that is changing in her world.
If no catalyst had moved through Westeros, then Sansa would have been an excellent example, and someone for Arya to emulate. Sansa would have been the one in the right - the one who fitted in with her world and her position. Arya would have been the one who would be deviant - as her mother used to complain about.
Her desire to hold onto the life she was supposed to have doesn't mean that she's a bad or weak person - just that she's in denial that while being raised to be the right kind of lady, she is instead now supposed to be a politically astute power monger.
I think also, that if Arya had happened to be within the grasp of the Lannisters - like Sansa was - she wouldn't do anywhere near as well with the mistreatment. Arya would have gotten herself killed because she just wouldn't endure that sort of treatment. While it's sad that Sansa has been raised to endure that without complaint, it's what got her through - and will get her through the story. After all, Sansa finds it impossible to escape alone - and only does so with the help of others. It's a fairytale to believe if she emulated Arya, chucked on a pair of pants and went around the alleyways that she'd be able to get out of the city.
So I don't see Sansa as necessarily bad or weak or boring. If their world wasn't changing, she'd be absolutely perfect for her role as wife, lady and mother for some lesser lord - just as she was raised to be. To insist she's lacking because her mother didn't happen to be psychic and give her battle skills and the ability to deal with a deranged prince fiancée is highly unreasonable.
Patrick wrote: "Joe wrote: "Isn't it just character development? :DShe starts being prim, irritating and wet so that (I presume since I'm on Book 3 at the moment) she can become a stronger person.
But yes she'..."
Interesting, I think you're right there. :) Sansa is a very complex character, she sees the younger Tyrell's in A Storm of Swords and calls them silly little girls, yet at the same time is fanciful and wistful by nature.
I agree she is quite irritating - I'm hoping she redeems herself at some point. Her Stark siblings certainly hold much over her.
Joe wrote: "Isn't it just character development? :D
She starts being prim, irritating and wet so that (I presume since I'm on Book 3 at the moment) she can become a stronger person.
But yes she's an interes..."
Well, the Hound originally intended to rape her, and I think she definitely realized that. She was pretty much terrified of him, and terrified of the battle going on outside the city walls. There was no guarantee they would have gotten through that an actually escaped. And even then Sandor might have raped her later. Also, she's sort of like (mild spoiler!!!!) Theon in later books -- Theon is obsessed with/terrified of/bound to his captors by fear and habit. Sansa, similarly, is almost too scared of Joffrey to do anything. It was a mix of 1, being paralyzed by fear, and 2, better the devil you do know than the one you don't.
The real question is why the Hound didn't just abduct her by force. :)
She starts being prim, irritating and wet so that (I presume since I'm on Book 3 at the moment) she can become a stronger person.
But yes she's an interes..."
Well, the Hound originally intended to rape her, and I think she definitely realized that. She was pretty much terrified of him, and terrified of the battle going on outside the city walls. There was no guarantee they would have gotten through that an actually escaped. And even then Sandor might have raped her later. Also, she's sort of like (mild spoiler!!!!) Theon in later books -- Theon is obsessed with/terrified of/bound to his captors by fear and habit. Sansa, similarly, is almost too scared of Joffrey to do anything. It was a mix of 1, being paralyzed by fear, and 2, better the devil you do know than the one you don't.
The real question is why the Hound didn't just abduct her by force. :)
Laura wrote: "...Also, whenever GRRM "kills" someone, you have to actually see them die to know they're dead. Example: Theon and Davos are implied to have probably been killed in A Clash of Kings, but they turn ..."And even when they are dead they can be brought back to life as zombies, e.g. Catelyn Stark.
Being a huge Arya fan, I think Sansa is weak in comparison. She is slowly, very slowly starting to grow up and come to terms with the reality that life is not a fairy tale. But she's still whiney and my least favourite character.
Laura wrote: "I've read a lot of posts on discussions of these books that hate on Sansa as a weak, boring, or uninteresting character. Don't you think that's a little harsh? The kid's 12, for crying out loud. Sh..."YES, thank you SO much!!! I think that people are just used to seeing "strong" characters as only physically strong, like Arya, not mentally in Sansa's case. I also think that she has the best arc of any character over the course of the series (at least so far, I'm only on book 3) but I am so excited to see her grow into a calculating and intelligent young woman. Sansa is definitely one of my favourite characters :)
Tom Bombadil wrote: "Laura wrote: "I've read a lot of posts on discussions of these books that hate on Sansa as a weak, boring, or uninteresting character. Don't you think that's a little harsh? The kid's 12, for cryin..."
Love this thread, Sansa really earns far too much hatred for simply being a young girl in this cruel, cruel world. I am nodding my head to pretty much everything already said, especially regarding her fascinating character arc. I also somewhat wonder if her very gender and the fact she doesn't rebel against the role young women are expected to play like Arya/Brienne (who coincidentally tend to be some of the favourite female characters) do is the cause of some of these fan perceptions. Like you said, her lack of "physical strength" plays against her.
This may be a stretch, but what do you guys think about comparing Jon Snow to Sansa in GOT? His head is full of the same 'naive' fairy tales, except he wants to be that knight instead of marrying him obviously ha. He dictates his life around those fairy tales, i.e. joining the nights watch. Of course that example is not as destructive (arguably) as Sansa's infuriating path in King's Landing, but that could easily be boiled down to coincidence and the differences in their lives NOT Jon Snow having a stronger/better personality/characteristics. What do you guys think? Does this reveal any sort of double standard or am I just stretching for an example?
I really wish GRRM didn't push Sansa's chapters back, especially since it will be ages until the next book is published. :( I miss my Sansa POVs.
Love this thread, Sansa really earns far too much hatred for simply being a young girl in this cruel, cruel world. I am nodding my head to pretty much everything already said, especially regarding her fascinating character arc. I also somewhat wonder if her very gender and the fact she doesn't rebel against the role young women are expected to play like Arya/Brienne (who coincidentally tend to be some of the favourite female characters) do is the cause of some of these fan perceptions. Like you said, her lack of "physical strength" plays against her.
This may be a stretch, but what do you guys think about comparing Jon Snow to Sansa in GOT? His head is full of the same 'naive' fairy tales, except he wants to be that knight instead of marrying him obviously ha. He dictates his life around those fairy tales, i.e. joining the nights watch. Of course that example is not as destructive (arguably) as Sansa's infuriating path in King's Landing, but that could easily be boiled down to coincidence and the differences in their lives NOT Jon Snow having a stronger/better personality/characteristics. What do you guys think? Does this reveal any sort of double standard or am I just stretching for an example?
I really wish GRRM didn't push Sansa's chapters back, especially since it will be ages until the next book is published. :( I miss my Sansa POVs.
Jessica wrote: "Tom Bombadil wrote: "Laura wrote: "I've read a lot of posts on discussions of these books that hate on Sansa as a weak, boring, or uninteresting character. Don't you think that's a little harsh? Th..."Interesting comparison. My first thought was that Jon has at least one thing Sansa doesn't - loyalty. I think that's what bugs me the most about Sansa, she's willing to throw her family under the bus for her own selfish motives. Yes, she's very young, but that's no excuse.
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If Sansa is overly concerned with fairy-tale ideals, her beauty, and her gods, it's not because she's a stupid little girl -- it's because that's literally all she has left to depend on, small hope as it is. She's clinging to her innocence because that's the only thing she hasn't lost. She might not be my favorite character, but I certainly don't hate her or get bored by her like many seem to. She's growing on me with every chapter, and I feel very sorry for her.