Context is all

[Cecily]

There are some aspects of grammar that are right or wrong in every context ("mat the sat on cat the" is ungrammatical), but many other usages are less clearcut (e.g. "ain't" is standard in some dialects).

Context is all, and I was reminded of that by this sketch/song:
"Elderly Man River... But he doesn't say anything" just doesn't sound right:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLlTlY...

[Ruth]

Heehee. Stan Freberg, he is not forgotting.

[Cecily]

Yes, and "Keep in mind the tiny tots". After all, can you imagine the Rolling Stones singing "I can't get any satisfaction", Fats Waller singing "I am not misbehaving", the Beatles singing "She's got a ticket to ride, but she doesn't care" or Bob Dylan singing "Lie, lady lie"?

[Genine]

Oh, I so easily forgave Bob Dylan his ungrammatical Lay, Lady, Lay because it was the sixties and I lived in Berkeley, and I was in love and that song ... oh, my ...

[Anthony]

Cecily wrote: "Elderly Man River..." As somebody who is already a fairly old man and who has every intention of becoming a really, really, really old man, I wonder why "elderly" is more acceptable than "old". Are we are becoming reluctant to call a horticultural implement a "spade". Are polysyllables more polite? And if so, why?

[Ruth]

Anthony D wrote: "Cecily wrote: "Elderly Man River..." As somebody who is already a fairly old man and who has every intention of becoming a really, really, really old man, I wonder why "elderly" is more acceptable..."

Bingo.

[Cecily]

Good point, and I have no idea. Maybe people were more politically correct 50+ years ago than we realise?

[Malcolm]

I think the sketch shows what happens if you allow language to become put in a strait-jacket. And as Cecily says context is all. If a carpet lay over a feline then a mat lay on a cat, surely?

And with regard to changing the words of Ol' Man River and your comment: "Elderly Man River... But he doesn't say anything" just doesn't sound right. Of course it doesn't sound right - it is a poetic lyric, scansion and poetic licence must be accounted for and allowed.

[Malcolm]

With regard to the song Ol' Man River and AnthonyD's observation:"Are we are becoming reluctant to call a horticultural implement a "spade"."

Debate rages over the use of the word Nigger in the original lyric "context being all" check out this Wikipedia entry and the section on Paul Robeson's alteration to the song lyric: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ol'_...

[Cecily]

In a similar vein (but not as good), "Grammatically Correct Pop Songs": http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=...

[Malcolm]

Certainly not as good as the first sketch - far too laboured.

It's a shame that your examples come from comedy sketches so it's hard to take seriously without laughing at some of the comments.

But then it is hard not to laugh at strict grammarians and pedants.

[Aryn]

I love English, and I really like grammar, and somehow, a book titled Who's the Bell Ringin' For just doesn't sing in my occasionally pedantic little ear.

[Aryn]

Gabi wrote: "Aryn? No. The title is gramatically correct, as it comes from the sentence "Ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee"."

Yes, I realize the title is grammatically correct. Had Hemingway decided to do it in the language of the day, it would not have been nearly as lyrical. Sorry, I thought I'd made myself plain in that I LIKE it grammatically correct. It sings as For Whom the Bell Tolls. It doesn't quite make it as Who the Bell's Ringin' For. Or am I missing your point? Wouldn't be unusual at midnight on a Saturday night.

[Malcolm]

Do you think that some of the humour of the Elderly Man River sketch may lie in the anticipation of the audience in wondering how they would tackle (if they should decide to reach that part of the song) the nigger/darkie controversy?

Obviously Freberg had far more taste than to take the sketch that far, but considering his choice of lyric to satirize it, it makes one think.

I'm considering the sketch and Freberg as a sort of Mel Brooks/Blazin' Saddles of his day

As I said, I much prefer that sketch to the more laboured second routine which basically ripped off Freberg's amusing idea.

[Cecily]

Malcolm wrote: "Do you think that some of the humour of the Elderly Man River sketch may lie in the anticipation of the audience in wondering how they would tackle (if they should decide to reach that part of the song) the nigger/darkie controversy?..."

That's a good point that hadn't occurred to me, perhaps because although I've heard the song before, it's not one that I know really well.

[Malcolm]

Perhaps it's because blacks and Jews have an affinity due to their historical sufferings, but I really enjoy Jewish humour. BTW, the script of Blazin' Saddles was written by Richard Pryor with the intent of himself to play the sheriff, but the studio insisted on a different actor because most of his advance money for writing the script he spent on cocaine, thus rendering him a probable liability on set when the script went into production.