The History Book Club discussion
This topic is about
A Distant Mirror
EUROPE - EUROPEAN HISTORY
>
16. A DISTANT MIRROR...October 3rd ~ October 16th ~~ Part Two - Chapter TWENTY-SIX (538 - 563) - No Spoilers Please
date
newest »
newest »
Random thoughts:Page 540: This one made me laugh, despite its coldheartedness, "He began by strangling his brother with a bowstring, a customary Turkish precaution." I wonder, was the bowstring part of the custom? Or was there a choice of execution devices?
Page 542: "On being shown a relic said to be a bone of St. Elizabeth, he turned it over and remarked that it could just as well be that of a dead cobbler." Good point.
Pages 546-547 include a rather nice summary of Coucy's accomplishments in his life. It is a strong case for marking Coucy as, if not the perfect fulcrum, at least the best fulcrum available on the 14th century.
Page 547: "Writing history in terms of direct speech was a license medieval chroniclers allowed themselves." Seems that was just generally more common until recent history. Today we require people to be very careful to indicate quotations versus summations, cite sources, etc. I'm guessing that things started to change as methods for recording and duplicating actual words improved. Beginning with the printing press, but really changed when we were able to record voice and transmit actual words said.
You know, pride and self-importance seems to be quite the tragic flaw in this book. How foolish to head off on a campaign and spend your money on "silks and velvet and gold embroidery" rather than "catapults or other siege weapons." (See page 556.) It seems like a baseball team so confident that they'll win the World Series that they don't bother bringing gloves to the game. Of course, it is always easier to recognize idiocy in hind-site.
On page 561, in the paragraph beginning "Though Froissart...", Tuchman argues that if the French had fought with their allies, the course of European history may have significantly changed. I don't know enough about European history before the 19th and 20th centuries to evaluate this. (Part of the reason I'm reading this book, obviously.) Does anyone else know enough to comment?
The last 3 paragraphs of this chapter leave a lot to think about and discuss. I don't even know where to begin!
Mod
All of your comments were excellent Elizabeth S.
Bentley wrote: "I think strangling the brother was the way to get rid of sibling rivalry; sounds harsh."Oh, yea. And today we complain when our kids whine at each other. :)
Mod
Hi ElizabethPg 561 - I think that if the allies had fought together they would have done better - but then that arrogance of the French would have still been there and lacking a total victory they might have lost another battle - and it would have reinforced their chivalry attitude -
And the Turks had a single clear adgenda it seems - so if it had changed history I think not so notably.
What you say pg 556 about choice of use of resources also interests me not only as regards what they used the money for but how much they must have had to raise and how that must have impacted on the populace. New taxes touched on briefly on page 548 (ever so briefly)
Mod
This chapter was truly appalling. If one of Tuchman's goals in writing this book was to disabuse us of any romantic notions of chivalry, she really succeeded! Not only did their arrogance lead them to neglect basic preparation (clear illustration of the danger of believing one's own publicist), but even the marvelous Coucy didn't blink, apparently, at the slaughter of prisoners. And the Turks, or at least their rulers, were no better. Vince, you bring up the point of the funds needed to underwrite this tragic, foolish enterprise. That has become a big theme of this book for me -- how much the lower classes suffered to support the follies of the "ruling classes."
Mary Ellen wrote: "This chapter was truly appalling. If one of Tuchman's goals in writing this book was to disabuse us of any romantic notions of chivalry, she really succeeded! Not only did their arrogance lead th..."the 99%
I think that Tuchman is not kindly to most of the folks she writes about - Coucy maybe an exception
Mod
Mary Ellen wrote: "This chapter was truly appalling. If one of Tuchman's goals in writing this book was to disabuse us of any romantic notions of chivalry, she really succeeded! Not only did their arrogance lead th...""Truly appalling" are just the words to sum up this chapter. What a climax to the century.
For the week of October 3rd - October 16th, we are reading approximately the next 25 pages of A Distant Mirror: The Calamitous 14th Century by Barbara W. Tuchman.
The sixteenth week's reading assignment is:
Week Sixteen - October 3rd - October 16th -> TWENTY-SIX p. 538 - 563
TWENTY-SIX – Nicopolis
We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.
This book was kicked off on June 20th. We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle.
There is time still remaining to obtain the book and get started.
There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.
Welcome,
~Bentley
TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL
by