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14. A DISTANT MIRROR...September 19th ~ September 25th ~~ Part Two - Chapters TWENTY-THREE and TWENTY-FOUR (478 - 516) - No Spoilers Please
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Random thoughts for Chapter 23:I'm sure this doesn't count for earliest recorded filibuster, but I was impressed by the TWELVE HOUR sermon "preached before the King and court on January 6, 1391" by Jean Gerson. (See page 479.) I do wonder, how do people keep their bladders under control when they talk so long? (Or do they not?)
Page 482: I thought this a rather significant statement, "Within the Empire the effect of the schism was not greatly divisive because conditions were already so chaotic that they could not have been made much worse." Ouch.
Page 484: You know, if I were martyred by being thrown from a bridge, I'm not sure I'd appreciate being made "the patron saint of all bridges." But then, I'm sure there are other reasons that I'm not up for sainthood...
Page 487: I thought this was an interesting point to think about, "Voluntary self-directed religion was more dangerous to the Church than any number of infidels." On the one hand, it makes some sense. On another hand, it is rather condemnatory of the Church of the time.
Page 490: "Essentially, Gloucester and the barons of his party were opposed to peace because they felt war to be their occupation." Sadly, that actually kinda makes some sense. The end of war doesn't mean all singing and dancing. There are changes and refocusing that need to be done. Didn't someone once say something to effect that "Sure, we survived the war. But can we survive the peace?"
Random Chapter 24 thoughts:Page 496: Ah, the irony that "Orders for the capture of Craon failed because the gates of Paris, still stripped of their bars since the insurrection, could not be closed." Gotta get those repairs done faster.
Page 507: I thought it interesting that Tuchman points out that by the end of the century the population was less than 40-50% of what it was at the beginning. And she seems surprised that it isn't commented on much in the records. She says, "It was certainly visible to them in reduced trade, in narrowed areas of cultivation, in abbeys and churches abandoned..., in urban districts destroyed in war and left unrepaired after sixty years." Personally, I don't find it surprising that people didn't comment on it much. Seems to me that is asking people to have a broader view across time than is reasonable even today. I just don't see people looking at ruins of abbeys and thinking, "Wow, the population must be so much smaller because otherwise that abbey would be still thriving." Thinking of that kind of stuff doesn't have much to do with survival, or with merry-making, or with most day-to-day things that people think about.
Page 508: "Several thousand scribes were employed turning out copies to meet the demand of the 25 booksellers and stationarii of Paris." Golly. Imagine how many jobs we'd create if we only got rid of all our printing devices. (Ha ha.)
Page 509: "Even the University had taken to selling degrees in theology to candidates unwilling to undertake its long and difficult studies or fearful of failing the examination." I thought it was just in our day that people could buy cheap degrees!!
The madness of the King is rather scary to read about. What a bad time for all.
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(last edited Nov 04, 2011 05:57AM)
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But remember in today's economy if we resorted to scribes versus print - what would the cost of books be in today's marketplace? Astronomical.
As you can see the marketplace was ripe for all sorts of things being bought and sold.
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(last edited Nov 03, 2011 11:09PM)
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More on Gerson:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Gerson
Source: Wikipedia
From New Advent:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06530...
Other:
http://www.quodlibet.net/gerson.shtml
Bentley wrote: "It is hard to believe that losing 50% of a population would not be discussed. If we lost all of the folks west of the Mississippi; I would think that somebody in the media would notice and comment..."Of course if the decimation of the population happened in a few years, yes, it would be big news. But think about how the population has changed over the last 80-100 years. (I don't even know how it has changed. I'm guessing it has gone up?) How often does that get discussed in the news, even today?
I guess I'm thinking that most people I know are spending enough time and energy worrying about day-to-day issues. Some people expand out to world events more than others, and maybe discuss local changes over the last decade. Even during the most recent turn of the century people spent way more time talking and worrying about the Y2K roll-over issues than they did comparing the world in 2000 to the world in 1900.
Plus we've discussed earlier in the book that the 14th century population seem to spend more time dealing with the day-to-day struggle to survive. So I guess I'm just saying I'm not surprised that they didn't spend much time worrying about how the population changed, even though it was dramatic.
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You make a good argument Elizabeth S.
Decimation of population I believe did make news between towns and villages, but I think that often it was rumor and only increased determination and dread to survive locally. If you made it to the end of your day your next duty was to make it through tomorrow. I think that it increased suspicion of visitors and certainly could lead to panic with any perceived threat rightly or wrongly. Poisoning wells as an explanation for pestilence and looking for someone to blame as another idea.
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Some thoughts on the population loss not being mentioned If they had lost about half in 1348 - 1352 about and then had additional rounds I would think they would be more accustomed to having drastic population change.
Also I think that this could/would also happen when the was conflict in a village or for the folk of the area.
And they were busy etc - but I think by the end of the century - 50 years after the initial arrival of the plague it would not be an active point of discussion.
I now look at the title "A Distant Mirror" and see it coming to be more and more valid - looking at Elizabeth’s messages 2 & 3pg 479 - filibuster
Pg 482 - things so chaotic
pg 496 - gotta get repairs done (infrastructure)
pg 509 - selling degrees
then also
Pg 479 - "taxes to raise and maintain an army having been lightly considered."
I also found it interesting that there was by the end of the century concern about judgment day. I would be curious if that coincided with the turn of the century. We had some of that with 2000 and we didn't have the Black Death in our century.
I also would be curious if the incidence of madness was more common for royalty, with intermarrying for political advantage, than for the rest of the population (mentioned on pg 514) but either way I would assume most mentally ill people then had much shortened lifespans - especially with the severity described for Charles VI.
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Regarding Elizabeth’s comment about pg 508 and job creation from getting rid of printers I think you would more likely see more Kindles, Nooks, etc. etc. (joke sort of)
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A semi - tangent comment - I just saw a film "the mill and the cross" - a Polish made film (in English) build around the Pieter Breughel the Elder painting The Procession to Calvary and it is set in the 16th century - I think it could be quite interesting - the way of life portrayed in the midst of the main story etc. I would say it would not be suitable for children under 15 or 16 and even then parents might want to see it first before encouraging them to see it - if they would be interested.
Mod
RE: the dramatic decrease in population, it is interesting that this had both positive and negative effects on those who survived. Perhaps the positives would be a reason for the lack of comment. (No one saying: "Great thing 60% of the population died: there's so much more food for the rest of us!") But I also think the fascination with death, as evidenced by the popularity of the Danse Macabre and the fad for grimly realistic effigies, reflects the high mortality rate. (An odd expression, given that mortality has been a constant 100% over history!)Speaking of "macabre," I thought it interesting that the word was coined in this period. And the Bal des Ardents was certainly one of the more macabre events I've read about in a while!
What about Queen Isabeau, wife of the long-suffering Charles VI? Amazing that she got away with her adulterous behavior! Had she lived 125 years later, and in England, she would not have kept her head! This, plus Richard II's shaky position in England, remind me that we are not yet in the era of absolute monarchs. Their position still seems a bit tenuous during this era in which feudalism is sputtering out...
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I thought of another reason that large population drops might be less noticed in the 14th century versus today. So many of us today are specialists, and more interdependent than in the past. Back then, loosing a whole town of people wouldn't have directly affected anyone beyond the next town or so. Today, that town of people might be where X car company has a big factory, or where a large percentage of Y crop is farmed, etc. And loosing those things would affect everyone faster and more directly.
Mod
I would make a comment about population drops - in most of Western Europe everyone who lived lost close people - they lost 60%of their neighbors. They did not understand the science of the diseases. I think it could not ever be as devastating now as it was then.Everyone directly affected you because there was not that specialization of labor/talent. Most everyone was your peer.
I think what Elisabeth says is half right and half less right - we have factories and specialization and spread info faster - but we are not as close - and we have a modern world - don't go to sleep when it is dark because there are light bulbs - TV - radio etc.
Vince wrote: "...I think what Elisabeth says is half right and half less right...":)
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They seemed emotionally to be shallow and living and feeling things superficially with a fatalistic attitude about life which seemed to be changing by the end of the century with a concern about judgement day.
For the week of September 19th - September 25th, we are reading approximately the next 38 pages of A Distant Mirror: The Calamitous 14th Century by Barbara W. Tuchman.
The fourteenth week's reading assignment is:
Week Fourteen - September 19th – September 25th -> TWENTY-THREE and TWENTY-FOUR p. 478 - 516
TWENTY-THREE – In a Dark Wood and TWENTY-FOUR – Dance Macabre
We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.
This book was kicked off on June 20th. We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle.
There is time still remaining to obtain the book and get started.
There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.
Welcome,
~Bentley
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