Oliver Twist: Week 01 - Book 1: Chapters I -IV

[Loretta]

Please discuss this section below!

[toria (vikz writes)]

I am reading- what is coming through is the biting satire. I shouldn't be surprised but I am. What does everybody else think?

[Karen]

I am finding that this book flows more easily to my mind than Pickwick Papers.
Is this because there is a stronger narrative thread to this story, or because I am familiar with this story or is this just me.
I would be interested to know what others think.

[whimsicalmeerkat]

I certainly feel as though the social commentary has a very large satirical component.

I find the narrative to be more easy to pick up on than the Pickwick Papers, but so far I'm not enjoying the book as much as I hope I will by the end. Oliver is just too perfect for me. I'm hoping he proves to be more than a construct before long.

[Robin P, Moderator]

After Pickwick I was struck by how much Dickens uses the same satirical tone yet the effect is different. In Pickwick the main characters were "haves" - their misfortunes were temporary embarrassments and they had friends and money to help them. They brushed up against some of the "have-nots" and treated them kindly but didn't have to spend much time thinking about social issues. Here our hero is the lowest of the low, without even his own name.

[Deborah, Moderator]

As always, I love the names that Dickens creates for his characters. One of the things that really struck home with me was the description of the boy chimney sweeps and what typically befell them. Really scary, yet the people making the decision didn't seem to think about these risks. Dickens' point, I bet.

I think he's really emphasizing that Oliver is like a leaf on the wind and has no control in his life whatsoever. I realize he's just a kid and that automatically limits his control, but without parents to protect him; he has no recourse.

[Lynnm]

I just have one more chapter to go and I'll be on to comment. Enjoying your comments so far!

[Jenn]

Vikz wrote: "I am reading- what is coming through is the biting satire. I shouldn't be surprised but I am. What does everybody else think?"

That is what I saw come through very strongly too. The satire in Pickwick was a lot more subtle.

[Susan Margaret]

It seems odd to me that Oliver's caretakers would not apprentice him out to a chimney sweep but yet they are willing to put him on a ship out to sea. I suppose the caretakers were getting desperate to get rid of Oliver?

[Robin P, Moderator]

Wasn't it the judge/lawyer who had to approve the chimney sweep plan who felt sorry for Oliver? The folks at the workhouse couldn't wait to be rid of him, they even were willing to pay.

[whimsicalmeerkat]

Robin wrote: "Wasn't it the judge/lawyer who had to approve the chimney sweep plan who felt sorry for Oliver? The folks at the workhouse couldn't wait to be rid of him, they even were willing to pay."

This is correct.

[Lynnm]

I've always loved Dickens because of the social aspects of his novels. A lot of our current thinking about social issues are influenced by him as well as other authors of that time period. Here they are trying to apprentice Oliver out at a very young age.

Although when I think of some of the things that were eliminated in Western society - such as child labor - I am reminded that it still exists in other countries today. And many times, the products and clothes that we use today have parts that were mined or made by children in factories.

So did we really eliminate child labor or merely outsource it overseas?

[Susan Margaret]

Denae wrote: "Robin wrote: "Wasn't it the judge/lawyer who had to approve the chimney sweep plan who felt sorry for Oliver? The folks at the workhouse couldn't wait to be rid of him, they even were willing to pa..."

Thanks Denae and Robin. For some reason I was thinking that the judge/lawyer was also involved in the decision to put Oliver on a ship if he could not be apprenticed out.

[Kristen]

I had no idea how sad this book was going to be! Poor little Oliver.

[Sasha]

My intro (which I didn't read until after I'd finished this book, because intros almost always spoil the plot) mentioned that Oliver Twist caused quite a ruckus when it started coming out; Pickwick Papers was a smash hit, but people weren't expecting the new social stance Dickens would take with Twist. So this represents the beginning of what Dickens would come to be known for: his satire becomes more vicious, as you guys are picking up on, and he mercilessly exposes the plight of the poor.

Prime Minister Lord Melbourne said, awkwardly, "It's all among Workhouses, and Coffin Makers, and Pickpockets...I don't like those things; I wish to avoid them; I don't like them in reality, and therefore I don't wish to see them represented." Which, of course, was exactly Dickens' point. I wonder if he was thrilled when he read that quote.

[Deborah, Moderator]

Lynnm wrote: "I've always loved Dickens because of the social aspects of his novels. A lot of our current thinking about social issues are influenced by him as well as other authors of that time period. Here t..."

Wow Lynnm. Really thought provoking. You are absolutely right - we've outsourced it. The corporations chose to do that, and we bought into it by purchasing what they provided. It does bring to question our own social responsibilities. Do we just stand by and watch Oliver be apprenticed - or do we make the changes needed so it doesn't happen anywhere.

[Malcolm]

I read this book ages ago. It's extremely satirical as is all his novels. I can't recall Dickens mentioning the colour of Oliver's eyes or hair. I put this down to his wanting the character to appeal to all his readers in a sense of them identifying with him as their child or there but for the grace of God, go I.

I may be mistaken as for the non-description of hair and eyes. But I would be interested to know if I somehow had overlooked this aspect of the novel.

[Malcolm]

Alex wrote: "My intro (which I didn't read until after I'd finished this book, because intros almost always spoil the plot) mentioned that Oliver Twist caused quite a ruckus when it started coming out; Pickwick..."

That's why he made his satire in Oliver Twist and Nicholas Nickolby so savage as to counter the indifference of the wealthy towards the plight of the poor and those abandoned to the mercies of the Workhouses and so-called schools for education of the unwanted illegitimate offspring of "society" and the middling classes.

[Lynnm]

Deborah wrote: "Lynnm wrote: "I've always loved Dickens because of the social aspects of his novels. A lot of our current thinking about social issues are influenced by him as well as other authors of that time p..."

I always tell my students that one of the first thing that they need to do when they read a text is figure out why the author is writing the book. Is it to teach the reader about an issue? Persuade their audience? Get the audience to act?

I believe that with all of Dickens social novels are not only to criticize the horrible conditions of the times and teach the general public about the social inequities, but to persuade the public to act to change the system. What good is criticism if there is no action?

When I read a classic, I always try to see if it is relevant to today's world. In Dickens' time, he's not thinking about the world outside England-most likely it wouldn't even occur to him. But in my humble opinion, we certainly should. We live in a global economy and shrinking world with greater access to information.

[Zulfiya]

I agree with most of the readers - the satire in the first four chapters is truly biting and caustic. But you can also find a hilarious counterbalance, and some of the passages and paragraphs virtually made me laugh. The characters and the circumstances they find themselves in are bigger than life, but it is a blueprint of many Dickens novels, and that is what I am enjoying so far. Though it is easy to notice that Dickens had a much more serious social agenda in this novel - working houses, social mores, poverty, maternal death, treatment of apprentices, and many other issues.

[Loretta]

Granuaille wrote: "I am finding that this book flows more easily to my mind than Pickwick Papers.
Is this because there is a stronger narrative thread to this story, or because I am familiar with this story or is th..."

I agree wholeheartedly. I'll admit that I didn't even get more than a third of the way through PP. *guilty look* But I'm enjoying this WAY more.

[Loretta]

Kristen wrote: "I had no idea how sad this book was going to be! Poor little Oliver."

Ye, that's one of the main things I'm enjoying about it so far. I guess I tend to enjoy heavier novels more than humorous ones as a general rule.

[Loretta]

Alex wrote: "My intro (which I didn't read until after I'd finished this book, because intros almost always spoil the plot) mentioned that Oliver Twist caused quite a ruckus when it started coming out; Pickwick..."

Interesting. Thanks for the info. I imagine that this would be quite controversial, portraying the "haves" as unsympathetic and heartless and the illegitimate child as the put-upon lovable character.

[Deborah, Moderator]

Loretta wrote: "Kristen wrote: "I had no idea how sad this book was going to be! Poor little Oliver."

Ye, that's one of the main things I'm enjoying about it so far. I guess I tend to enjoy heavier novels more th..."

Loretta, it might not be humor that is the problem. PP was almost like reading a group of short stories some of which were connected. It didn't have the cohesiveness that Oliver has.

[Loretta]

@ Deborah: I'm sure that was part of it, too. Also, I didn't really feel connected to any of the characters, or like I cared about any of them.

I tried REALLY hard to keep reading PP, but I just wasn't enjoying it. I sort of felt like I dropped the ball on the whole Dickens project, since the idea was to read all of them, but PP wasn't connecting for me. I'd only read two Dickens novels before (A Tale of Two Cities and Great Expectations) and really enjoyed them both. Oliver Twist is shaping up to be much more of what I expected/was hoping for.

One thing I've noticed so far, though, is that Oliver isn't a very well-drawn character yet. I'm assuming that might change, but right now the novel seems to be much more focused on those around him, and how their actions affect him. He's quite passive at the moment.

[Loretta]

BunWat wrote: "Pickwick Papers reads like a series of short stories and sketches because it is. The Pickwick Papers were written in installments and published as a serial. The tales become more connected and in..."

I don't think we were suggesting that it wasn't Dickens' intention to make PP a series of somewhat-connected short stories. I was just pointing out (and of course I should let Deborah speak for herself) that I find Dickens to be much more engaging when he's writing in the novel-format.

[Loretta]

BunWat wrote: "I didn't think you were suggesting that. What I was saying is that as we move from Pickwick to Oliver we are seeing the young Dickens move from short form to long form fiction. Oliver Twist is esse..."

True, though sadly I won't be able to comment on this extensively as I couldn't make my way through PP. :(

Do you know if any of his other novels are more in the PP/vignette style?

[Lynnm]

I loved the PP. It took me awhile to get into it, but once I did, it quickly became one of my favorite Dickens' books. Pickwick and Sam Weller were so lovable that I actually miss them.

And even though I like Oliver, I'm having difficulty adjusting from the lighter side of PP (although Dickens has some serious commentary embedded in the narrative as well) to the definitely darker Oliver (although Dickens has lighter moments to take away from the serious nature of the themes).

But to each their own cup of tea... :-)

[Deborah, Moderator]

Loretta wrote: "@ Deborah: I'm sure that was part of it, too. Also, I didn't really feel connected to any of the characters, or like I cared about any of them.

I tried REALLY hard to keep reading PP, but I just w..."

Loretta - Don't stress about not finishing PP. There is a book for every reader, and a time for every book. ;-)

[Deborah, Moderator]

Loretta wrote: "BunWat wrote: "Pickwick Papers reads like a series of short stories and sketches because it is. The Pickwick Papers were written in installments and published as a serial. The tales become more c..."

You're doing just fine by me Loretta.

[Loretta]

I'll admit that I still haven't "given up" on PP. It's still on my bedside table with the bookmark marking where I stopped, and I've still got it marked as "currently reading" here on GR... now to just get my motivation back...

[Loretta]

Lynnm wrote: "I loved the PP. It took me awhile to get into it, but once I did, it quickly became one of my favorite Dickens' books. Pickwick and Sam Weller were so lovable that I actually miss them.

And ev..."

Yep, I always have a tendency toward darker works in fiction... like my fascination/love of post-apocalyptic of dystopian fiction. They always hold my attention better than humorous novels. So I'm sure my own preferences are a part of it.

[Deborah, Moderator]

I must confess to putting PP down quite a bit. I'm not a fan of short stories even when connected. I enjoy the novel much more because I feel like it's something I can sink my teeth into. Short stories make me feel like I just get started and they are over.

[Sasha]

I'm with you, Loretta; I don't know what it says about me, but I like my books like I like my coffee: black.

[Lauri]

Sorry to be a little late to the game…recovery from back surgery caught me way off guard…thought it would be faster to get back to real life.
Anyway, I am hoping that some of you will be patient and come back to these first few chapters and explore the satire with me a bit further. There were several passages that have a style of satirical comment, or perhaps it’s a specific writing mechanism that I was unfamiliar with and I’m hoping someone will be able to educate me – here they are:
When Oliver is just borne and has not yet managed to take a breath:
“Now, if, during this brief period, Oliver had been surrounded by careful grandmothers, anxious aunts, experienced nurses, and doctors of profound wisdom, he would most inevitably and indubitably have been killed in no time.”
And then when Oliver is sent to the infant farm:
Seven-pence-halfpenny’s worth per week is a good round diet for a child; a great deal may be got for seven-pence-halfpenny: quite enough to overload its stomach, and make it uncomfortable.
I found these backwardly constructed passages to be bitingly satirical. Stating the normal point of view of a person having wealth as the opposite of what the situation actually was made the satire raw and biting in my opinion. I thought this was very effective. I can imagine that the reader’s of the day were wriggling in their seats in discomfort at his extremely targeted social commentary.

[Lauri]

@ Loretta

I too almost gave up on Pickwick, but about 1/4 of the way in, I switched to an audio version and found this enormously appealing (Blackstone Audio, narrated by Simon Prebble). I fell in love with the characters and by the end was truly sad that it was over. Mr. Pickwick and Sam Weller will live in my mind forever now, and that really could not have happened in a traditional book version.

[Joyce]

I love the intensity and especially the spareness of the writing. Hardly an extra word. I wouldn't say the same of PP.

[Tango]

I'm kind of late to this discussion but I wanted to comment on the brilliant writing. The description of Oliver's birth and his difficulty breathing on the first page was so incredibly unique. The voice of Bumble when he says of Oliver's name that he 'inwented it' is just so vivid - this pompous and cruel man who can't speak properly. As you might have gathered I am loving this book.

[Zulfiya]

Tango wrote: "I'm kind of late to this discussion but I wanted to comment on the brilliant writing. The description of Oliver's birth and his difficulty breathing on the first page was so incredibly unique. The ..."

How much have you read so far? I definitely found some really beautiful passages in the book.

[Tango]

I'm up to about chapter 8 and as with all of the Dickens that I have read I am wondering why I didn't read this years ago. He is so clever and witty whilst also making a serious comment on society at the time. And the characters ....