Debate discussion
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Should women be allowed to preach in front of a congregation/be ordained?
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I Agree! Women have every right to preach what they believe, and a god that supposedly loves all should not restrict those rights.
I think the fact that this is even a issue speaks volumes about Christianity.
apparently women are more predisposed to follow satan because of their sexuality
i watched a documentary on the salem witch trials and that at least is what they saidand the reason most of the convicted were women
even though i go to a catholic school and am roman catholic (they believe women can't become ordained) i think that woman should be able to preach and become ordained if that's what they want. i feel it's sexist to go up to someone and say: "you can preach what you believe in and share it w/ others because your a woman". and no, im not just saying that cause im a girl. to the guys: if you were a awsome doctor and you weren't allowed to work in the maternity ward because you could't understand what the woman in labor were going through, would you feel the same way. am i making any sense? the point is we're all equal human beings with rights and responsibilities, and you shouldn't have to be a certain sex to preach about your god.
I think it use to be we are more susceptible to evil or something stupid along those lines.
Girls are too good to hold such a stupid role in society...I LOVE IT!
Liz wrote: "I think it use to be we are more susceptible to evil or something stupid along those lines. "That is true. There are a lot of things in the bible that imply that. It started with Eve being the one who was tempted (even though Adam was standing RIGHT THERE and didn't do anything).
There was supposedly a woman pope once, though.
Liz wrote: "I don't believe that "What don't you believe?
i found it"A lot of the rumors about the "bad popes" are true, but let's not get ridiculous. The female pope story is generally regarded as a fabrication. "Pope Joan," who supposedly served from 855 to 858, was said to be an Englishwoman who disguised herself as a monk to be with her cleric boyfriend. She went to Rome, where she so impressed others with her learning that she was elected pope. Her secret was discovered when she gave birth during a procession, whereupon she was slain. The story is false, although it was possibly inspired by actual events, about which more in a moment."
and what is that suppose to mean jayda?
Jessi wrote: "Liz wrote: "I don't believe that "What don't you believe?"
that there was ever a female pope
Liz wrote: "i found it"A lot of the rumors about the "bad popes" are true, but let's not get ridiculous. The female pope story is generally regarded as a fabrication. "Pope Joan," who supposedly served from ..."
Wait, I'm curious though. How do they know that it's false?
idk but here is another one Q: Was there ever a female pope?
A: The short answer is, “No”—despite an 800-year-old legend that a woman masquerading as a man indeed beat Vatican sexism at its own game.
The long answer is more complicated, because the legend has gone through a strange progression of being strongly believed to strongly reviled and/or debunked, and then believed again in some circles. Almost no one, including modern Catholic historians, has written about it with objectivity.
I relied on Rosemary and Darroll Pardoe’s history “The Female Pope: The Mystery of Pope Joan” for much of what follows. It’s the only rational, in-depth study available.
The story first appears in obscure histories dating to the mid-1200s. They have an unnamed, highly-educated woman, dressed as a man for traveling purposes, being hired into the Vatican and eventually rising to pope around 1100. She is discovered when she becomes pregnant and inconveniently gives birth while mounting a horse for a public procession. A demon outs her, to boot.
The tale was later interpolated into the contemporary manuscripts of Martin of Troppau’s extremely influential history of the popes and Roman emperors. This slightly different and more elaborate version identified the woman as a German called “Johann Anglicus” (indicating an English connection), and further confused matters by placing the action in the 800s.
Other histories quickly picked up the story, too, adding various details and commentary, usually describing her death by stoning. She had some aliases, with Agnes being popular in the 1400s. “Johannes” or “Joan,” the feminized “Johann” or “John,” became popular in the late 1400s through the present.
There is no doubt that the story somehow was taken seriously by both the public and the Church. A bust of her—later removed—was included in a series of papal portraits in the cathedral of Siena, Italy around 1400.
And popular legend connected to her some type of statue, now lost, in a Roman street said to be the location of her unmasking, along with an inscription of unknown content and location. The elaborated legend was that the popes avoided this street due to the connection, and there appears to be some validity to that.
The legend did have its doubters, including the future Pope Pius II. However, the Church didn’t really change its tune until Protestant reformers in the late 1500s began making fun of the supposed female pope, which was held up as a sexist example of hypocrisy and corruption in the Church. It also incarnated the Protestant image of the Church as the “Whore of Babylon” and spun off other insulting legends, such as the pope being required to undergo a proof-of-sex display.
It didn’t help that many Catholics continued to believe the legend, forcing them to attempt to explain her as a hermaphrodite.
Ironically, it was Protestant authors, influenced by modern rationalism, who took the first shots at debunking the legend.
Women gaining power by dressing up as men was a motif of medieval storytelling. The Pardoes point out specifically that it’s an element of the legends of many women Catholic saints. They even found a similar legend, dating to about 980, about a woman ascending to a bishopric of the Eastern church that way; the tale apparently stuck in the imagination, being brought up in 1054 in a nasty letter to the Eastern church from Pope Leo IX.
The Pardoes suggest the woman pope legend—which first appears in histories written by Franciscan monks—was invented, based on pre-existing material, as part of potshots in an internal dispute between their order and Rome.
Why the story would be taken seriously and even embraced is another question. The setting around 1100 was credible, since there were several would-be popes vying for power (and short reigns for those who got it). Perhaps the warning to troublemaking women or anyone who would sneak into power was considered useful.
Interestingly, however, the idea of the woman pope seems to have been responded to positively in the 1400s, the same period in which its popularity appears to have peaked. Some sources credit the humanist movement for embracing papal equal opportunity.
While the popularity of the legend is mysterious, there is no doubt is simply a legend. There are no contemporary references to a woman pope or such a remarkable scandal. There isn’t even room in the currently acknowledged papal chronology to fit her in.
Things are now coming full circle among some feminists, who argue “Pope Joan” was real, her history now somehow censored by the Vatican. Her bust in Siena was indeed censored—one might say, properly edited out—during the Protestant controversy. But it takes a lot of wishful reading to locate her historically.
Likewise, some feminist sources refer to Maifreda (sometimes “Manfreda”) as a woman pope. She was a figure in a late-1200s Italian sect called the Guglielmites, which formed around a deceased woman preacher. The group supposedly plotted to overthrow the Roman Catholic Church and elected Maifreda as its would-be pope; the Inquisition had them all killed around 1300.
While Maifreda may have called herself a pope, that’s like me declaring myself president. The Guglielmites were a small group that never threatened the formal Catholic papacy.
Who was giving the answers in that one?
Liz wrote: "I think it use to be we are more susceptible to evil or something stupid along those lines. "i asked my religion teacher this the other day, and she used this as an excuse to assign me a report, and also to add in what i thought. it ended up being almost 12 pages (but keep in mind for about 7 of the pages i was arguing that women SHOULD be able to be ordained priests), i'll spare you the long report and just give you the basics: most of the people who don't want women to be ordained that actually give reasons say that it's a matter of justice (i have NO clue of how excluding women is right when it says in the bible: servant or free, Jew or Greek, woman or man)the main thing is though, the Church's teachings won't change.
another interesting thing i found was that the New Testament(keep in mind this is the Church's interpretation), priesthood is the priesthood of Christ. all men who (through the Sacrament of Holy Orders) have become priests/bishops/brothers are participating in Christ's priesthood. they are acting in the person of Christ, who was obviously a man. many(me included)argue that His sex is irrelevant, and a woman can act in the person of Jesus just as well as a guy can.
hang on, because this part gets sort of confusing. the misunderstanding in Catholic teaching on the difference between women and men (which the Church insists are irreducible) men and women, by their human natures are suited to different, but at the same time complementary roles and functions, which apparently make women unfit for the priesthood.
Mukesh wrote: "Yay, brainwash both sexes equally!"That is not very nice, but I snorted my tea. :D
What about Deborah? God deliberately put her in a position of authority over men because no man would step up to do the job.This clearly shows that God does not care about sex. Also, as Jenna says, the Bible states that in heaven "there is no man nor woman no slave nor free." Besides the reason that women were originally not allowed to preach was because that they would not have been respected and nothing would have gotten done because there would have too much controversy. Jesus always elevated the position of women, He discussed theology with them, which just wasn't done back then, and He stood up for a prostitute and moch more. I think Jesus would be perfectly fine with women becoming ordained.The Bible was actually almost feministic for its time. You always have to remember what time period this book was written in. The fact that this is still an issue in churches says a lot about men, not Christianity.
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Adrienne, I also have what book and passage that was, if you want to try to dispute it.
I believe that if a man can do it, a woman can probably do it too, but please don't go into technical terms on me.(like getting a woman pregnant)
Well of course women should preach what kind of question was this!!???
I just posted a comment and got a message, 'there was a problem posting your comment'. anybody know what that is?
too bad, it was a good'n. didn't save and cant recall. and dont feel like going through it again.
Why would they even want to? Or have anything to do with man-made religion -- spare me the lecture, ALL religions are man-made. The Bible/Koran has been the root of woman's problems from the beginning. ever since the first woman tempted Adam to eat from the tree of knowledge. and women have been trying to shove knowledge down man's throat ever since.... to no avail, unfortunately.
Ladies and gentlemen,This is one of the most highly debated questions in the Christian church today and it can easily cause dissension.
I implore all of you to not just read specific phrases of the Bible but carefully examine the entire context of the entire theme.
Many of you will disagree with me and you're certainly entitled to your opinion, however I won't take it personally because I know God's word is the final authority and whether you follow in obedience to it, is purely between you and God.
The Word of God proclaims, “A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent” (1 Timothy 2:11-12). In the church, God assigns different roles to men and women. This is a result of the way mankind was created and the way in which sin entered the world (1 Timothy 2:13-14). God, through the apostle Paul, restricts women from serving in roles of teaching and/or having spiritual authority over men. This precludes women from serving as pastors over men, which definitely includes preaching to, teaching, and having spiritual authority.
The structure of 1 Timothy 2:11-14 is very clear. Verse 13 begins with “for” and gives the “cause” of Paul’s statement in verses 11-12. Why should women not teach or have authority over men? Because “Adam was created first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived.” God created Adam first and then created Eve to be a “helper” for Adam. This order of creation has universal application in the family (Ephesians 5:22-33) and the church. The fact that Eve was deceived is also given as a reason for women not serving as pastors or having spiritual authority over men. This leads some to believe that women should not teach because they are more easily deceived. That concept is debatable, but if women are more easily deceived, why should they be allowed to teach children (who are easily deceived) and other women (who are supposedly more easily deceived)? That is not what the text says. Women are not to teach men or have spiritual authority over men because Eve was deceived. As a result, God has given men the primary teaching authority in the church.
Many women excel in gifts of hospitality, mercy, teaching, evangelism, and helps. Much of the ministry of the local church depends on women. Women in the church are not restricted from public praying or prophesying (1 Corinthians 11:5), only from having spiritual teaching authority over men. The Bible nowhere restricts women from exercising the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12). Women, just as much as men, are called to minister to others, to demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23), and to proclaim the gospel to the lost (Matthew 28:18-20; Acts 1:8; 1 Peter 3:15).
God has ordained that only men are to serve in positions of spiritual teaching authority in the church. This is not because men are necessarily better teachers, or because women are inferior or less intelligent (which is not the case). It is simply the way God designed the church to function. Men are to set the example in spiritual leadership—in their lives and through their words. Women are to take a less authoritative role. Women are encouraged to teach other women (Titus 2:3-5). The Bible also does not restrict women from teaching children. The only activity women are restricted from is teaching or having spiritual authority over men. This logically would preclude women from serving as pastors to men. This does not make women less important, by any means, but rather gives them a ministry focus more in agreement with God’s plan and His gifting of them.
I pray that all of us will purpose to live according to the infallible, eternally relevant Word of God and not by our own standards or those that the world tries to convince us is more valid because the Bible is old and outdated.
Anyways...Constipation? Ouch haha.