Warmth Of Other Suns by Isabel Wilkerson

[Carol]

Not as high as I thought it would be. Thank You for finding out Zorro. I think though that the prison inmates are a bit more one sided, correct.

[Carol]

One thing I found interesting ,Wilkerson gave statistics for black northern families of two parent households and southern families who migrated.............One objection was southern families had more women and children living on welfare, which was not the case. Freed black families had higher welfare rates and unwed mothers. I forgot what page it was on though. Does anyone else remember her giving those statistics?

[Carol]

Also southern families had more education then their white northern counterparts and new immigrants .

[Dean]

RACE OF DEFENDANTS EXECUTED IN THE U.S. SINCE 1976

BLACK 440 35%
LATINO 93 7%
WHITE 712 56%
OTHER 24 2%


CURRENT U.S. DEATH ROW POPULATION BY RACE

BLACK 1,358 41.77%
LATINO 394 12.12%
WHITE 1,420 43.68%
OTHER 79 2.43%

The unfairness of the justice system toward people with dark complexions becomes apparent when you consider that they make up only 13.6% of the population of the United States.
http://www.infoplease.com/spot/bhmcen...

[Sue]

Thanks Dean. That's the statistic I was wondering about and that's where the huge disparity lies. And it's not just in death penalty cases of course, but in all types of arrests. We've all heard of the disparity in sentencing in drug cases for affluent or middle class white offenders vs middle class or lower socio-economic black offenders. The latter are much more likely to go to jail and have long sentences for having the same amount of drugs. I don't have the stats for this but have read so many articles discussing the fact that it seems to be common knowledge.

[Dean]

Now look at the 13th amendment. It does not abolish slavery entirely but makes an exception.

Amendment 13 - Slavery Abolished. Ratified 12/6/1865. History

1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

Given their disproportionate representation in the prison population, it would seem that a great percentage of the descendents of slaves have yet to be emancipated.

[Sue]

Well said Dean. And given how some states use prison populations as work crews, involuntary servitude still exists.

[Dean]

#93 Kitty said, "What difference would it have made if the "slaves" were treated as indentured servants and able to work off their debts...

Concerning the prevalence of racist thinking, I read this in the Wilson Quarterly, Summer 2011, p.89 "Best Books on Slavery and Race Relations" by Ira Berlin

"... in Eric Foner's Pulitzer Prize-winning book 'The Fiery Trial: Abraham Lincoln and American Slavery (2010). Foner... traces Lincoln's evolution from a small-town racist - that is a believer in the inferiority of people of African descent - to the Emancipator who, in the last year of the war, signaled a willingness to extend suffrage to black men.

... 'The Fiery Trial'... provides a sense of how deeply and thoroughly the view that black people were inferior to whites pervaded American society."


Lincoln could not have started out as anything else because the choices had not yet been made apparent. We needed to wait for Frederick Douglass to perform his act of larceny.

[Dean]

Thanks, Sue. That exception makes me uneasy because I can imagine a government trying to improve its economic situation by pushing through convictions to increase its supply of cheap labour.

[Carol]

Slavery was a part of the African life style before the white man, but the word had a different connotation. Most slaves were treated as part of the tribe they lived with in Africa and many married into the tribe.. Do you think if the people knew how badly the slaves were to be treated ,the black slavers would have readily hunted slaves for the white man to ship overseas?

[Dean]

Kitty, being a slave has always had various meanings depending on how the society was organised and the role of the slave.

I found an article which mentions what you said, Kitty.
http://www.rzuser.uni-heidelberg.de/~...

At first African leaders may have participated in the slave trade thinking that European slavery was similar to their own but I think that greed quickly prevailed. In the novel "Somebody Knows My Name" (titled "The Book of Negroes" in Canada) by Lawrence Hill, the cruelty begins from the moment of capture by fellow Africans.

In Roman society being a slave could mean that you worked in a mine and had the life expectancy of a cicada or you managed a household and got wealthy and healthy (you needed to be wise) skimming the proceeds of the villa. Roman slaves could also be children's tutors or scribes. When a patrician Roman received a letter it was often a slave who read it to em. At one point a Roman senator got the idea of forcing all the slaves in Rome to wear an identfying badge on their clothes. Upon further reflection the idea was scrapped because the slaves would see to what extent they outnumbered free citizens and it could provoke a revolt.

[Sue]

In the American South, no badge was necessary as skin color did the identification. I wonder if the sheer number of the freed slaves at least in part led to the Jim Crow laws. In some areas, the white residents would be outnumbered without laws to give them controls. The laws also prevented black society from developing power to help itself.

[Dean]

Yes, Sue, but it was not just in the South where that "badge" made a difference. When Italians, Irish, Greek, Russian, and other European immigrants moved into low income neighborhoods in major cities, they consistently moved out within one or two generations. The experience was not so for those with dark complexions. The other suns were barely warmer and they were left asking what happens to a dream deferred.

[Carol]

Yes Dean I had forgotten about Somebody Knows My Name a wonderfully written book. You have bad people the world over, of all colors. Unfortunately the darker races have a harder time to break out of the mold they are forced to be in by color of their skin. My husband is of East Indian descent and they have a definite color line over there also. After we were married, his family was looking for a girl for one brother and someone made the statement that she had to be light. It made me so mad, to think they would pass on a beautiful girl because she was too dark. My husband and I were stunned to say the least.

[Sue]

Dean wrote: "Yes, Sue, but it was not just in the South where that "badge" made a difference. When Italians, Irish, Greek, Russian, and other European immigrants moved into low income neighborhoods in major cit..."


de facto vs de jure once again.

[Carol]

Sue would you e-mail me the link for "Color of Change" I am interested in the organization.

[Sue]

I'll make a note to send it the next time the send me an email. (Bug me if you don't hear from me in case I get distracted)

[Carol]

If I can remember. LOL

[Sue]

:-) I've highlighted the notice of your message as a reminder.

[Jane]

I've just begun to read The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness by Michelle Alexander. It's a perfect companion piece to Warmth of Other Suns because it takes the conversation into present day institutionalized racism. Thought provoking history of Reagan's "War on Drugs," and how it has played out...Here's an upsetting statistic. "In major cities wracked by the drug war, as many as eighty percent of young African American men now have criminal records and are thus subject to legalized discrimination ofr the rest of their lives." The percentage of black men in this country admitted to prison because of drug charges is astronomically higher than that of white for the same kinds of charges. Those who say it is so much better now than it was during the era of Jim Crow laws would be stunned by some of the research and stories this author shares.

An important book to read and talk about.

[Carol]

I put it on hold at the library, Jane It should be in my branch in a week or so. Thanks for the heads up.

[Wilhelmina]

I just caught the end of Isabel Wilkerson's interview and Q & A on CSPAN2. It is excellent and is available online:

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/Wa...

[Sara]

I finished listening this morning. A tremendous and important book. I have many thoughts and feelings that I need to sort out, but foremost is that I believe societies create an "other" to scapegoat and mistreat and restrict. When I used to visit the intermountain west, people there talked about Native Americans using the exact same derogatory terms and tone that an average Chicago racist uses to abuse black people.

Wilhelmina's statement in the thread above is, of course, very true: there is a difference between bigotry and institutionalized, government-sanctioned exclusion. My fear is that there is still a deep and wide vein of hate for those different from ourselves in the world, and the U.S. demonstrates it all the time.

[Carol]

Don't you think it is because we have diverse cultures from all over the world , so it is manifested twice over?
Some hate blacks ,some Jews, some Christians and quite a few hate Muslims. Anything that is different from their religion, or non religion, skin color you name it you will find it here in America.

[Sara]

But isn't that the irony (and the shame of it)?

[Carol]

Yup! It sure is.

[Sylvia]

I finished the book. How informative and truthful it is. I have a number of comments.
Regarding the Amendment 13 giving some place for slavery, I don't know if you are aware of "prison industries". All prisons have industry programs in which inmates are paid a pittance for their labor. These industries include the laborers you see doing road work, clean up, maintenance, and within prisonsprinting, wood work, and much much more. These goods and services are sold-and generally at competitive prices. Yes, I am sure it pays for the running of these institutions, but when I read the Amendment 13 comment it made me think of this.

[Sylvia]

Now that I have finished reading I will make a few more comments. I was born and grew up in North Florida, in a community with an approx 60-70% African American population and plenty of racism. I grew up in the 70's and 80's. I heard the "n" word used a lot in the 70's and it gradually disappeared, but I am sure it is still spoken in that community. There was definately the "black" section of town. And, a really troubling thing, I am aware that the KKK was active-and that I knew some of them-based on comments I heard around. There is still a "black" funeral home in that town-and I don't think the "white funeral home has ever had a black family seek their services-from my questions to my family. I've been out of that community for almost 25 years, and when I visit my family there I am always somewhat shocked at the level of racism still there.

I lived in Miami for 15 years, which really gave me a new perspective on prejudice. Miami taught me to respect other cultures and today many of my closest friends are black-from many countries.

Then, 3 years ago we moved to the West coast of Central Florida-near Lake County discussed in the book. We are about 1 1/2 hours from Hustus. I am well familiar with it as my aunt lived there for many many years. Here's the interesting thing though-and one that my husband and I immediately noticed after about 3 days in our new town-there are very few people who are black. I asked around to find out what the problem was back then as it scared me-it was so surreal. I found out that there is a KKK presence here-behind the scenes. I hear it is disappearing, but I guess it was known. Over the past 3 years we have seen many more African Americans move in -several of whom I have hired. We had a family move in down the street as well. I hope the community is changing-and if possible my family will do our part to make sure it does.

I had a talk with my 12 year old daughter the other day. I asked her if she knew what the Jim Crow Laws were. She quickly told me she did and was able to tell me exactly what they were. She told me she learned it in 4th and 5th grade in the community where we currently live-I was so glad to hear that.

My husband is of Cuban decent, and my daughter asked me if she could be classified as black. I told her that her dad had a black relative in the past-possibly a great great grandfather-we are totally sure. I told her I am a great big mix and being from the south it is very possible I have some African American blood too-so she can just assume she is white, black and hispanic. She has never shown even one bit of prejudice and I am sure she will not-especially since she now knows that would just be prejudice against herself too. If only all of our children could recognize/know that the blood that runs through our veins is all the same. And, as my daughter has learned, we all have something to offer-great things from all cultures, races!!!

This was a great read and I am going to continue reading on this subject.

[Carol]

Thank You for sharing a piece of your life Sylvia. Sounds like your community is trying to make inroads to change. Education is a strong factor in implementing change. My children are of mixed cultures and blood also. I like to think it has made them more open to other races, which I think it has.

[Wilhelmina]

In the C-SPAN piece, Wilkerson made it very clear that, while racism continues, young people today can hardly conceive of the laws and threat of violence that made such a huge portion of the population leave the only home they knew. She talked about trying to explain to students that a black person was prohibited from passing a slow white driver on the road. One child said, "Well, I would honk my horn." She tried to get them to picture what would happen to the person who did that, then another child said, "Well, I would tailgate." The situation faced by African Americans in the south under Jim Crow is absolutely unthinkable for people today. There's no way to compare someone calling you a racist name with the horror of knowing that a friend or family member has been lynched for a minor infraction like not moving off the sidewalk fast enough. Wilkerson pointed out that almost every family knew someone who was lynched. Even though the KKK still exists, they can no longer murder without fear of legal prosecution.

[Carol]

I think it is something so unfathomable for even me. To me these men and women were pioneers who surmounted horrible risk to leave the south and head north into unknown territory where prejudices abounded . They maybe didn't face legalized lynchings and being murdered for the smallest infraction, but they faced hardships and cruelty on an emotional level.

[Wilhelmina]

Another thing that Wilkerson pointed out is that there are now no "warmer suns" available. African Americans have spread throughout the country and Jim Crow is dead. She said that the next struggle is a spiritual one for us all as a nation to discover how to live together.

[Carol]

I hope this healing comes to fruition. I think we have come a long way, but have many miles yet to go. We all want the same things in life. Books like this help to throw a light on a hidden subject.

[Carol]

I know this book will stay with me for the rest of my life, I hope to hear more from Ms. Wilkerson in the future.

[Peggy]

Wilhelmina, that was the thing that hit me the hardest - that even the perception of misdeeds was enough to beget violence. The chapter where Ida Mae's cousin was beaten nearly to death just because "the boss" suspected him of stealing turkeys - and then there were zero repercussions (or even acknowledgement) that "hey, we nearly killed the wrong guy over something he didn't do - oops." And, if I read correctly, that boss (Mr. Edd) was considered one of the good ones. How did those people sleep at night?

I was also surprised to learn about all the effort that went into preventing the migration - that men were "arrested" for vagrancy and sent to the fields to work off their fines. And the man who was sentenced to life in prison for a crime that was commited while he was in prison. How do people do that? I mean, I thought I was cynical, but wow.

Thank you again for suggesting this. I'd say this is the best book I've read all year, and one of the best I've read since finding CR.

[Wilhelmina]

Thanks to Kitty for this one!

[Jane]

But it is still happening. think of the two cases recently before the Supreme Court. A man executed after witnesses recanted. He wasn't allowed to appeal because of new laws to prevent terrorists from avoiding a death sentence by continuous appeals. And the man who was given a life sentence because, said a psychologist, "blacks are more likely to be violent." I'd love to hear a conversation between Wilkerson and Michelle Alexander, the author of the book I mentioned, The New Jim Crow.

[Sue]

I'm very thankful for this discussion which motivated me to read this book now. Thanks Kitty!!

This discussion has been even further enlightening with all the input from so many in this group. I'm sure you are like me---out there telling everyone to read it. I feel like my eyes have been opened to many things I really wasn't fully aware of, things that impact others' lives constantly, things I should and need to know.

(I'm glad we get these discussions at the end of the day. For some reason GR didn't send me any of this thread since Saturday)

[Mary Anne]

Mina, the things you mention in your message 130 are so indicative of why these stories have to be told, over and over.
I have a friend here in Pittsburgh, who was in basic training somewhere in Texas prior to going to Vietnam in 1969. One day, he came upon the aftermath of a lynching, and that moment was a defining moment for this caucasian Vietnam Vet, perhaps more so than the war, as it happened on our soil.

[Carol]

Why do you think the migration is no longer happening today? Is there an underlying factor, or has things became better in the south?

I think out of the whole book I found Pershing's story the most interesting. He had acquired an education, a thriving patient base, but he still was not happy and satisfied with his life. His goals and achievements were tremendous, but his story to me was haunting.

[Sue]

Kitty wrote: "Why do you think the migration is no longer happening today? Is there an underlying factor, or has things became better in the south?

I think out of the whole book I found Pershing's story the ..."

I agree Kitty. He had achieved so much but as he learned after he made his way to LA, his achievements did not give him full access to the world as he had hoped. I think he felt his achievements were tainted in a way, by his father-in-law's status in the black world and his own inability to fully enter the California white medical world. It's sad that he rarely, if ever, appeared to enjoy what he had.

[Carol]

That is what I found so haunting, he had so much talent and fame, but I don't think he was truly happy. Ida had lots of hardships in Chicago , but she raised a family of fine individuals. I can't remember the gentleman who went to Washington Dc. It was scarey for him to travel back and forth between the north and the south, so he adjusted as best he knew how. I think he was better equipped to face the hardships and he was realistic. I wonder what he could have done if he had been allowed to go to college.

[Mary Anne]

That was George Starling, and he was in NYC. He had an unhappy marriage, and his son got into the drug scene in New York. It's hard to imagine the kind of life he had as a train conductor, particularly when he was back in the south. But he seemed to have self-respect and the respect of many in his community.

[Carol]

Thank you Map. Yes he went to Harlem and didn't he buy a brownstone? The drug scene is another story all together isn't it? Who first brought the drugs into Harlem and other black communities?

When youths are idle they find other outlets for their energies. Communities in the north did not want to invest in the black neighborhoods. In a way it was oppression through economics.

[Carol]

What do you all make of this, and what do you think they are trying to say.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10...

[Ruth]

I think it may be the old logical fallacy, post hoc ergo procter hoc.

[Sue]

I would imagine they are "trying" to say that possible future black and poor criminals have been inspired by this new President to stay on the better path. An odd concept but this is also the first time there has been such a person to emulate or for parents, etc to set up as a role model. Look at it one way and it seems a highly negative racial remark. Look at it from another perspective and it becomes a positive possibility.

Ah relativity.

[Dean]

The crime rate has been declining since the early 90's which would make it the Clinton Effect. Yep. post hoc ergo propter hoc.

[Yulia]

Here's a thought-provoking discussion about Lawrence O'Donnell's recent interview with Herman Cain about the latter's explanation for why he didn't participate in the Civil Rights Movement while in college:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10...

It references The Warmth of Other Suns and raises interesting issues about the different set of questions reporters ask of black and white politicians and the standards they're held to, as well as the general awkwardness and potential impropriety of someone not directly affected by discrimination's asking another held back by it how he or she ought to have behaved to advance his or her own rights. (Hm, bad sentence construction on my part.)

[Barbara]

Behind as usual, I finished The Warmth of Other Suns: The Epic Story of America's Great Migration this week. The discussion here has been excellent and contributed significantly to the experience of reading it. When I was a young adult in the late 60's and 70's living in Indiana, just outside the Jim Crow laws, racism was at the top of my mind but I still didn't realize, at a gut level, how pervasive and terrifying the effects of these laws could be. I tended to think what I heard about were isolated incidents, still horrible, but not as common as they actually were. The fact that all three of these people who were highlighted faced dangerous situations on a regular basis brought it home to me. I also didn't realize how desperately some white people tried to keep black people from leaving.

Over the last 20 years though, I've thought a lot about how slavery has negatively affected our history as a nation. This book reinforced those feelings.

One thing that often surprised me in the writing was the repetition of information. Often, Wilkerson repeated information from a previous chapter or repeated it and then built on it. I wondered if this was done because parts of it were published separately or if she was afraid that we would forget the information presented. In my case, it detracted a bit from the experience, but that is a minor criticism.