The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion
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The Death of Ivan Ilych
Leo Tolstoy Collection
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Death of Ivan Ilyich, The: Background and Resources
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Here is an online version of the translation by Louise and Aylmer Maude:http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/t/tolst...
If you use an eReader (Kindle, Nook, Stanza, etc.), you can download the epub file here:
http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/t/tolst...
Tolstoy's page at the Literature Network, with online texts of all his works,
http://www.online-literature.com/tols...
including "The Death of Ivan Ilych":
http://www.online-literature.com/tols...
I found some good paintings of Tolstoy at this site, Pinacotheca Philosophica. Posted to commemorate the 183rd anniversary of Tolstoy's birth.Leo Tolstoy Resting in a Wood
love it! what is he wearing though? it kind of looks like a wedding dress haha. btw, has anyone seen the movie about Tolstoy? it's with James Macavoy and Helen Mirren. i thought it was fascinating.
Kristen wrote: "love it! what is he wearing though? it kind of looks like a wedding dress haha. btw, has anyone seen the movie about Tolstoy? it's with James Macavoy and Helen Mirren. i thought it was fascinating."
I saw the movie. It was really great and interesting, esp. related to the socio-political side of Tolstoy and his (love-hate) relationship with his wife.
Hedi wrote: "I saw the movie. It was really great and interesting, esp. related to the socio-political side of Tolstoy and his (love-hate) relationship with his wife."Two chapters in, I am already wondering how much of our book draws from Tolstoy marriage experience.
Kristen wrote: "love it! what is he wearing though? it kind of looks like a wedding dress haha. btw, has anyone seen the movie about Tolstoy? it's with James Macavoy and Helen Mirren. i thought it was fascinating."
It's on my list of titles to rent. I may need to move it up now that we're reading one of his pieces. That was based on a book. Has anyone read it? Was it any good or should I just stick with the movie?
Kris -- I haven't read the book. I wasn't overly enthusiastic about the movie -- I felt I didn't have the background to understand all of it, but still am not sorry for just watching it. I'm not sure how accurate it is considered to be, mostly because my perception is that there is a lot of difference of opinion about what was really happening between Tolstoy and his wife and the larger world. He was not an easy man and a lot of people had a vested interest in him.
Do you ever really struggle over what edition of a book to buy?That was my experience with The Death of Ivan Ilyich today. I had downloaded the first chapters from online, but decided it was too long to do it all that way. I do have a audio version requested through the library system, but since there was no printed copy locally, decided to go to the bookstore. I discovered I could get a copy with three other similar length pieces for under $8. However, a Richard Pevear and Larissa Volokhonsky translation, which included eleven stories total was available for ~$17 (after discount, including tax). In comparing for about 15 minutes, it did not surprise me that I preferred the P&V translation. The word choice and sentence structures seemed "smoother." Also, my favorite way to read Tolstoy (AK & W&P) is to read a P&V translation while listening to a Garnett (or Maude) translation. So I really was tempted by the P&V translation (the paper was better, but the print was smaller, which is beginning to matter to my eyes). Still, the volume with the updated Garnett translation had an interesting introduction by David Goldfarb, Barnard College, and a contemporary review.
I don't usually waver quite so long over so short a work as DII. If the P&V collection had included the story "Family Happiness", it would have won out. As it was, I did discover that if I do want it someday, with the additional eight stories, it can be had for $11.41 -- if the price holds!
Is anyone among us using the P&V translation? Have you compared it with another? What you think?
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Deborah wrote: "I stick with the Penguin Classics editions. The translations are usually very good and the notes are excellent."That edition appears to have three translators: Anthony Briggs, David McDuff, and Ronald Wilks. The product description suggests DII is a new translation, but I don't trust how those always get lined up by the online sellers. I presume different translators did different stories? Probably Briggs himself for DII?
Some of us first got into a fairly deep understanding of the impact of translators a few years ago when we were doing online discussions of Homer and Pushkin. Now, I not always certain for other works and other authors, and I know the arguments and the pros and cons can vary.
(I agree with you about Penguin. Also, Oxford, although sometimes they can be English scholar oriented or dated. I don't think the bookstore I was in had either for DII yesterday -- there was one other edition that I quickly rejected, but I don't remember whose it was.)
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That edition appears to have three translators: Anthony Briggs, Da..."
I like Oxford as well. I had a hard time finding both of those in CA. Luckily, I'm now in a college town and find most things in the Penguin Edition in the small local bookstore. There is one a town over that carriers a lot of Oxfords too.
BunWat wrote: "I downloaded samples of two versions and much prefer -unsurprisingly- the $10 to the $1 translation. But do I like it eight dollars more?..."Part of my choice was based on a judgment of the value of the time I would put into the reading. This is not a novel of Tolstoy's in which I am going to invest hours and hours of reading, at least not on this first read. But even though I am not working, I still prefer not to "waste" my time. Knowing Garnett has a long and respectable history translating Tolstoy (and the edition I selected did say corrections had been made and consistencies in naming implemented)was one of the factors that leaned my decision toward the "good enough." But, I did realize that if I should ever want to do a closer reading, I'd probably indulge in the P&V translation. While Garnett knew Tolstoy and some point out that her English was of the same era as Tolstoy's Russian, in general, in listening to her for W&P and AK while reading P&V, I prefer the latter. Still, there are real insights in the two together, especially when one doesn't know the native language, as I don't.
Hope you share what you decide, BunWat, and how it works out.
I got the 99c Louise and Aylmer Maude translation on kindle. Have I made a big mistake? I haven't bothered to compare it with another version.
Kim wrote: "I got the 99c Louise and Aylmer Maude translation on kindle. Have I made a big mistake? I haven't bothered to compare it with another version."Probably not, although you may not have the corrections and consistency in names later editors sometimes do. Maude was considered a good Victorian translator of Tolstoy. But, if you can get your hands on a later translation sometime, you might enjoy comparing.
Kim wrote: "I got the 99c Louise and Aylmer Maude translation on kindle. Have I made a big mistake? I haven't bothered to compare it with another version."Kim, I don't think any translator can spoil Tolstoy. I enjoy the translations of the Maudes and of Constance Garnett, partly because they were contemporaries of Tolstoy.
http://www.neabigread.org/books/death...This above site, from the National Endowment for the Arts, has several resources on DII that I have just begun exploring. While I don't seem to be able to copy quotations from the PDF's, they have had some decent insights for me so far. E.g., given that Ivan and Jean are common names, whether in Russian or French, Tolstoy probably used them to indicate the ordinariness of Ivan's story -- that he can be viewed somewhat as an Everyman character. But the French "Jean" that his wife uses may be Tolstoy's cynicism about the French aspirations of the Russian elite. Or that Ivan's last name is Golovin (actually given to us right up front).
"....Tolstoy’s fiction, such as Anna Karenina and The Death of Ivan Ilyich, depicts a broken world headed for moral disaster, unless honest introspection and spiritual transformation begin to occur."“The goal of the artist is not to solve a question irrefutably, but to force people to love life in all its innumerable, inexhaustible manifestations.”
–Leo Tolstoy from an 1865 letter
The above are from the NEA site of the previous message. Not sure I agree with the evaluation of Tolstoy's message in his novels, but I do like the quotation from Tolstoy. (I am not yet convinced Tolstoy himself was the ideologue that his supporters used him as being. To me, some of the evidence is in all the re-writing he did -- which better captures the nuances and possibilities of life, this way or this other way?)
Lily wrote: ""....Tolstoy’s fiction, such as Anna Karenina and The Death of Ivan Ilyich, depicts a broken world headed for moral disaster, unless honest introspection and spiritual transformation begin to occur..."Thanks for the NEA link, Lily. I listened to the pod cast this morning. Very well done, but I think they missed the main point of the book, at least as I see it.
Laurele wrote: "Very well done, but I think they missed the main point of the book, at least as I see it..."Which you consider to be? (Use the spoiler feature if necessary.)
Good to see you here Laurele - are you reading Ivan with us? What do you see as the main point?
MadgeUK wrote: "Good to see you here Laurele - are you reading Ivan with us? What do you see as the main point?"I read it a couple of weeks ago. I guess I'd better wait till others finish to talk about the main point.
Laurele wrote: I guess I'd better wait till others finish to talk about the main point..."(view spoiler)
Kris wrote: "Kristen wrote: "love it! what is he wearing though? it kind of looks like a wedding dress haha.
btw, has anyone seen the movie about Tolstoy? it's with James Macavoy and Helen Mirren. i thought i..."
I read the book, but haven't seen the movie. It is really worth reading, if you get a chance.
btw, has anyone seen the movie about Tolstoy? it's with James Macavoy and Helen Mirren. i thought i..."
I read the book, but haven't seen the movie. It is really worth reading, if you get a chance.
Lily wrote: "Laurele wrote: "Very well done, but I think they missed the main point of the book, at least as I see it..."Which you consider to be? (Use the spoiler feature if necessary.)"
Let me see if I can figure out how to use the spoiler feature. I think the main point of this book is that (view spoiler)
Laurel -- thanks for your response! And for learning the spoiler feature!Now I get to finish reading and see if I agree with you. And to think about whether "The Last Station" is congruent with that view.
Lily wrote: "Now I get to finish reading and see if I agree with you. And to think about whether "The Last Station" is congruent with that view."I haven't read "The Last Station", but judging by the title, I suspect it is incongruent with Tolstoy's view (as I understand it). Death is not "the last" station, but a transfer station.
As Tolstoy himself wrote in Master and Man:
"He was now really passing from this life of which he was weary into that other life which every year and every hour grew clearer and more desirable to him. Whether he is better or worse off there where he awoke after his death, whether he was disappointed or found there what he expected, we shall all soon learn."
The following is copied from the goodreads reviews of DII. I thought we might all "enjoy" a chance at our reactions to it (I just shook my head and said "youth!"):Bree Herndon rated it 1 of 5 stars
Recommends it for: Somebody who is too happy with their life and wants to be depressed.
Seriously, I don't get the hype about Tolstoy. I read this book and hated pretty much every minute of it, even when I was trying my damnedest to like it. It was just so damn pedestrian. Some wealthy guy that realizes on his deathbed that his half-assed life pursuing money and position and being married to a woman he can barely stand was a waste. He idolizes the simple peasant who is the only person who is kind to him as he dies and realizes what a better life this poor noble man had than him with all of his money and position. Oh woe is f..king me! I've heard this story told before and I've heard it told much better than this. Literally half the book was the guy dying. It was like watching the movie Titanic where you want to scream, just sink already!! I mean really, just die! I highly recommend avoiding this ridiculous book at all costs.
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Davis You realize, the reason you have heard that story so much, is because Tolstoy pretty much invented it? People copied him.
Lily wrote: "The following is copied from the goodreads reviews of DII. I thought we might all "enjoy" a chance at our reactions to it (I just shook my head and said "youth!"):
Bree Herndon rated it 1 of 5 st..."
Oh Lily! I think this is a funny review. I actually understand the way this reviewer feels. I am certainly not young! But when I was, I bet I would have loved Tolstoy more than I do now. Unlike this reviewer, as a youth, I would have taken this work seriously, and been horrified by the descriptions of Ivan's life. Tolstoy could have had me for a fan when I was, say 15, maybe even 19. But now, I do tend to see his writing as a big pity party...Having admitted that, I still think he is worthwhile reading. And I have read some stories by him that are void of that whining!
Bree Herndon rated it 1 of 5 st..."
Oh Lily! I think this is a funny review. I actually understand the way this reviewer feels. I am certainly not young! But when I was, I bet I would have loved Tolstoy more than I do now. Unlike this reviewer, as a youth, I would have taken this work seriously, and been horrified by the descriptions of Ivan's life. Tolstoy could have had me for a fan when I was, say 15, maybe even 19. But now, I do tend to see his writing as a big pity party...Having admitted that, I still think he is worthwhile reading. And I have read some stories by him that are void of that whining!
Lily wrote: "The following is copied from the goodreads reviews of DII. I thought we might all "enjoy" a chance at our reactions to it (I just shook my head and said "youth!"):Bree Herndon rated it 1 of 5 st..."
Thanks for posting this Lily! I laughed out loud. This review is right on the money, in a cynical way. I can't help but think that Praskovya could have written this review!
Christi-- that's interesting that you would have taken DII seriously in your youth but not as you mature. I feel the exact opposite.
If you read Tolstoy (or Dosteovsky) 'straight' without looking for the symbolism and allegories contained within their writing, you are much more likely to come to conclusions like this. Great authors become great not just for their 'stories' but for what is meant by them and it is this which endures. Is War and Peace just about the fortunes of a family during and after a war? Is Anna Karenina just a love story? Is Ivan Ilych just about death? We would have little to discuss here and generations of critics would have little to write about were this so.
Melissa, yes, maybe I am backwards! When I was 15, a friend of mine died. Then when I was 17, my boyfriend was killed in a car wreck. Death became a theme for me! I read everything I could find about it. Kubler-Ross, books on reincarnation, the Bible, the Koran. I was going in all directions. Then in college, I found the existential writers, and I found what I was looking for. Death is the defining part of living. What you do in between birth and death is obviously important, and it matters. But, I also learned in valuing life, not to resent life. And not to waste time judging other people's choices. I feel repelled, to some degree, by works that have some absolute ideal that is said to be the only truth. But, that doesn't mean I can't find beauty, or maybe a truth in that kind of work. It just means that the total message for me doesn't work. Hmm. This comment may not be too clear. Too vague, maybe. Oh well!
MadgeUK wrote: "If you read Tolstoy (or Dosteovsky) 'straight' without looking for the symbolism and allegories contained within their writing, you are much more likely to come to conclusions like this. Great aut..."So true Madge. I will take it a step further and say what makes a great piece of writing great is that there is no wrong way to read it. A great author layers his work with meaning, as you pointed out, and what we take from the writing is almost equal to what we put in. Almost, because sometimes a writing can surprise us or we surprise ourselves. From my own experience, the books I've reread throughout my life have different meaning to me every time I read them because I bring a different attitude or life experiences or etc. So I don't see anything wrong with reading anything "straight", it happens to the best of us!
Christi-- your comment was totally clear! I guess I was sheltered growing up, especially when it came to death and dying. And unlike a lot of the commenters here, Thinking about death gives me the willies. So that definitely colors my interpretation of the writing. I think it makes me more sympathetic towards Ivan Ilych and less so to the other characters.
Christi wrote: "Melissa, yes, maybe I am backwards! When I was 15, a friend of mine died. Then when I was 17, my boyfriend was killed in a car wreck. Death became a theme for me! I read everything I could find abo..."Great post Christi!-
A sidebar -- just read this movie review of "Restless", also focused on death and dying:http://movies.nytimes.com/2011/09/16/...
I can't resist recommending Akira Kurusawa's classic "Ikiru" as a companion piece to The Death of Ivan Ilych. It's another story about death and dying. Like Ivan, it ends with beauty and hope and made me want to be a better person.Info on "Ikiru":
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0044741/c...
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The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910
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The Death of Ivan Ilych (other topics)Master And Man (other topics)
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