Lord of The Rings discussion

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Relationship between Frodo and Sam

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message 1: by Lindsey (last edited Aug 25, 2016 01:12PM) (new)

Lindsey | 11 comments I know I don't really know anything about the people in this group, but I was just browsing and found this group!

I've recently finished the Trilogy, and am baffled by the relationship between Frodo and Sam, and all they've been through. How do you describe it?

Wow.


message 2: by Ashley (last edited Aug 25, 2016 01:17PM) (new)

Ashley (samuraigurl91) | 4 comments i thought it was pretty gay. haha. well its true! you hv GOT to admit it. their relationship is just abnormal. but after all they've been through, their relationship has to be pretty intense. more than close. cause i mean Frodo couldn't have got through without Sam and Sam has been supporting him all the way. they've been through life and death. haha. overexaggerating? i think not.


message 3: by Lindsey (last edited Aug 25, 2016 01:20PM) (new)

Lindsey | 11 comments eh, i disagree with that. It's more like they're best friends for life, it's not like Frodo and Sam wanted to kiss each other or something. I don't think you're overexaggerating over all they've been through, leaning on each other and stuff like, that, but their relationship isn't like that.

The reason it's abnormal is because normal people don't go through that. They love each other, but not in a gay way. Do you see what I'm saying?


message 4: by Ashley (last edited Aug 25, 2016 01:20PM) (new)

Ashley (samuraigurl91) | 4 comments yeah i do. yeah its true they're like really best friends and well, we don't really have this kind of relationship between best friends anymore. we do, but its not everywhere where you can find friends like that.


message 5: by Llama (last edited Aug 25, 2016 01:29PM) (new)

Llama Castillo | 2 comments Their relationship is a very intimate one but in a non-sexual way. If you look at other cultures and even into stories of the past, especially in europe, similar relationships between men then does not seem strange. Men journeyed through life together and became extremely close. It is in many places throughout history and even when you look into relationhips between military men who serve together today. A brotherhood forms and attachments grow deep and strong. Nothing can severe or come between those ties.
It grieves me to see people thinking they can no longer have these intimate relationships. I grew up in a military enviroment and have a few very close friendships that mimic that of Sam and Frodo. Maybe seeing or reading about it can help to instigate a revival of these close intimate friendships we no longer seem to seek out, but desperately want.


message 6: by Ashley (last edited Aug 25, 2016 01:31PM) (new)

Ashley (samuraigurl91) | 4 comments yeah true. well there's nothing wrong with relationships like that. i seriously don't think so. actually i think the relationships of the military guys are seriously cute. they actually look more like real brothers than siblings nowadays.


message 7: by Lindsey (last edited Aug 25, 2016 01:31PM) (new)

Lindsey | 11 comments Heh Ashley, look at your first comment! Your opinion has changed alot, yes?
Great comments. I think I'll learn alot from this group.
Has anyone ever had any of those die-hard friendships like Frodo and Sam?


message 8: by Ashley (last edited Aug 25, 2016 01:33PM) (new)

Ashley (samuraigurl91) | 4 comments Lol! i guess~ i think yeah maybe. i would actually die for my best friends. i mean, i don't know what i'm gonna do without them! they're the best parts in my life and no one can ever replace them..ever~ xD


message 9: by Georgia (new)

Georgia | 3 comments ditto. I love my friend-ies!!! and i am definatly not gay. lol. 8)


message 10: by Georgia (new)

Georgia | 3 comments ditto. I love my friend-ies!!! and i am definatly not gay. lol. 8)


message 11: by Edwin (new)

Edwin | 1 comments Hi all,
I am presently re reading the trilogy as I read" the Hobbit" after reading the trilogy... So getting to place things in context...
Enjoying it very much regarding your observation of the relationship between the hobbits it's not gay although many words such as "queer" recurs throughout the trilogy:) Its friendship definitely not like "BrokeBack Muntain"lol




message 12: by Georgia (new)

Georgia | 3 comments I never got why they couldn't just have a sweet friendship w/o everyone just guessing that they're gay or something, it is just silly to think that they are anything more than great friends.


message 13: by Erin (new)

Erin Well, I know Tolkien's intentions was for it to be a platonic sort of friendship but stories and characters have a way of crafting themselves and taking on a life of their own even if the story is planned out ahead of time (which Tolkien really did let his instincts guide him through when it came to most of LOTR).

But before anyone gets flustered let me say this: there can be such a thing as a deep, deep love between people (and not always sexual although intimate) that could be cast as romantic or not but it is something I think Frodo/Sam share - that they are essentially soulmates and that while not sexual at all in the books (that's what fanfiction is for ^_^) and even though there are intimate moments, it is something deep and true. Something that not even Rosie will get from Sam.

If anyone has read the Epilogue Tolkien wrote for LOTR (but wasn't published with it) it is very obvious that Sam is still torn in two despite Frodo's "sacrifice" and while very pleased with his life and wife, still longs greatly for the sea and to see Frodo again.

I know many just want it to be a "friendship" and not "gay" but then I think it is a dishonor to their relationship to simplify it to that kind of arguement. It is obviously love, it is obviously friendship but it is also so much more.

But then, this is one of the things that drew me in to LOTR in the first place. :)

*wow that was a long ramble, eh? lol*


message 14: by Lindsey (new)

Lindsey | 11 comments I just want to make sure I know what you're saying.
You don't think that Frodo and Sam's relationship is gay, but you do think that their friendship is what most average people don't get because of how deep and strong it is. It is love, but not gay love, just a very special kind of friendship.
If that's right, then I get what you're saying.


message 15: by Erin (new)

Erin I am saying that their relationship is something beyond friendship but it is also not as simple as being "gay love" and "not gay love" - also, we shouldn't simplify it like that.


message 16: by Lisa (new)

Lisa | 4 comments Um, guys, Frodo and Sam(especially Sam) are about as straight as you can get, i mean, Sam marries Rosie Cotton and has what, like nine kids or something?
I think their relationship is something so undefinably strong that after everything they've been through and seen together, though it is never spoken about, is too deeply damaging to allow them to relate to anyone else, family, spouse, or other friend, in quite the same way. I've never really thought about they're relationship before and, oddly, it's often passed over. I think, though, that there are many complex levels to their friendship.


message 17: by Lindsey (new)

Lindsey | 11 comments Amen! I was partially shocked when Ashley thought they were gay, if she was kidding or not kidding. It would've ruined the story if they were.


message 18: by Terence (new)

Terence (spocksbro) First off, if Frodo and Sam enjoyed a gay relationship, would that matter? Though I'll grant you that we're on pretty safe ground arguing that this was definitely NOT what Tolkien had in mind when he wrote.

Secondly, I think we should keep in mind the society in which Tolkien wrote -- late Victorian/Edwardian England. Frodo is the scion of a family of country squires; Sam is the scion of the family that has faithfully served them for generations. In the beginning Frodo's and Sam's relationship is definitely one of superior-to-inferior but I think it changes (for the better from this democrat with a small "d"'s point of view) over the course of their shared ordeal to a more equal footing.


message 19: by Lisa (new)

Lisa | 4 comments On the contrary, I am not "anti-gay" but I do think that it would definitely mess up the story for me if Frodo and Sam were gay.


message 20: by Atishay (new)

Atishay | 3 comments I perfectly agree with E.C. Tolkien created two fabulous characters who supported eachother through anything and everything. The initial relationship was that of master and servant but it grew into a very strong friendship when they faced dark times together. I think Tolkien has tried to depict a very fundamental human emotion here, of friendship.
I fail to understand how anyone can mark them as gay.



message 21: by Karina (new)

Karina | 1 comments I have really thought of it really. But now that i think about it i believe they became like brothers. The journey they took together binds them forever because no one else than themselves understands what they went through. It never entered my mind that they were gay.


message 22: by Mark (last edited Dec 09, 2008 03:16PM) (new)

Mark | 1 comments Think of the relationship between Christ and 'the disciple He loved.' During the last supper, the disciple was leaning on his breast - many of earth's cultures have deeply affectionate familial relationships. In the Spanish-American community it is not uncommon at all for a father and son to be affectionate when the son is young. I think the recognition of the Father in Jesus is how we get our intimacy with Him. Now, Frodo, despite Tolkein's allegations that he disapproved of allegory and that what he wrote was actually "the truth" (I think he is trying to get our attention here, despite the semantics), bears a lot of similarities to the aspect of Jesus that bore the weight of all our sins, going down into the world below to conquer and set us free. Think of the how much the Ring weighs on Frodo, yet he has an unwavering determination to see it through to the end. I think there is a lot here. We can all bear one another's burdens like the two in the story, like Christ did, and like how we can do for each other believing in Him.


message 23: by Micaela (new)

Micaela | 2 comments I believe that Tolkien never thought people whould see it that way. Frodo and Sams friendship is purly that JUST a friendship. They knew each other for almost all their lives and have a brotherly love, they are practically family! Sam feels obligated to protect Frodo on his journey, it nearly breaks his heart to see Frodo in his beaten up stage. I think if I was to be going on that same thing with one of my friends I would do the same! Teir friendship is not gay at all, I think even suggesting it makes Tolkien roll over in his grave. It is just a close friendship.


message 24: by Jennifer (new)

Jennifer (jennifertudor) Hi everyone! I'm relatively new to this group and just stumbled across this discussion and thought I'd add my thoughts, although I believe they are the same or close to what most of you have said so far. I read and loved the trilogy and the relationship between Sam & Frodo was one that I found to be amazing and awe-inspiring but not gay. The thought actually never crossed my mind! On reflection of their relationship and especially after reading the previous posts, I think of the loyalty that I personally feel for my siblings, my parents and my husband and find the loyalty to be comparable to that of Sam and Frodo. There are people that you would do anything for and do anything possible in order to protect them. I'm a massive fan of Tudor-history and have noticed similar relationships between kings and their subjects. And as said before, there is the relationship between Christ and his followers. There are examples of immense emotionally connections throughout all forms of literature. LOTR is not the first example… perhaps one of the best but not the first :) Thanks for getting me thinking this morning!


message 25: by Jennifer (new)

Jennifer (jennifertudor) "If anyone has read the Epilogue Tolkien wrote for LOTR (but wasn't published with it) it is very obvious that Sam is still torn in two despite Frodo's "sacrifice" and while very pleased with his life and wife, still longs greatly for the sea and to see Frodo again."

If anyone hasn't read the Epilogue, which I sadly haven't read yet but plan to as soon as I get off of work today, here's a link :)

Erin - if this wasn't what you were referring to, please let me know so I can find the right one! Thx

http://www.warofthering.net/ahobbitst...



message 26: by Guitarded8688 (new)

Guitarded8688 | 4 comments they love each other dearly not queerly. even if it's very dearly, they're not gay. sam DOES get married to rosie.


message 27: by Randi (new)

Randi (The Artist Formerly known as Guitar Chick) (guitarchick) | 56 comments I agree with guitarded. Dearly not queerly. We all know that Rosie and Sam get married and you have to be close friends going through life and death. Jeez, what a world we live in where Sam and Fordo get accused of being gay.


message 28: by Christina (new)

Christina | 16 comments I tend to think that Frodo and Sam are like brothers, in their friendship that runs deeper than just cordial friends.... I also agree with those who say it is like a servant and master, but we also need to understand that although he serves Frodo, Sam is also there for Frodo as a father figure when he cares for Frodo at the end of the series (after marrying Rosie). This is a very intense/interesting discussion, thanks to all who contribute


message 29: by Christina (last edited Jan 17, 2010 02:35PM) (new)

Christina | 16 comments I also really enjoyed reading Mark's opinion, thanks all. & sorry I'm very late on this conversation, just joined the group yesterday :)


message 30: by Randi (new)

Randi (The Artist Formerly known as Guitar Chick) (guitarchick) | 56 comments NO prob. I can't beleive anyone would think they're gay............. I mean, J.R.R. Tolkein was a Christian guy. He wouldn't do that.


message 31: by Eli (new)

Eli I agree with Alicia, Christina, Jennifer, Micaela, Mark, etc.

Frodo and Sam are. not. gay.

It seems our culture today has fallen to the point where everything MUST be related to sex in some way, shape or form. Tiny children wear thongs. I babysat a four year old who was babbling about breasts and trying to pull up my shirt! (And this was not childish curiousity!) No, sex isn't a bad word. No, sex isn't "dirty".

BUT THERE IS SO MUCH MORE TO LIFE! Go find it!

Seriously, think about it! So Frodo and Sam are on a suicide quest. They're starving to death, dehydrated, and Frodo's practically possessed. The fate of the entire world rests on their shoulders... and Sam's gonna be trying to sneak in a kiss or more?

Come on, people! I don't care if you're as queer as a three dollar bill! That's just plain bad writing.

Ok... rant over. :D


message 32: by Randi (new)

Randi (The Artist Formerly known as Guitar Chick) (guitarchick) | 56 comments HA! AMEN! I use the three dollar bill thing all the time. Or Peter Pan on ice skates. Or they're on the wrong side of the fence.


message 33: by Randi (new)

Randi (The Artist Formerly known as Guitar Chick) (guitarchick) | 56 comments FRODO AND SAM ARE NOT GAY! GEEZ!!!!!!!!!!


message 34: by Jennifer (new)

Jennifer Gentry (authorjennifergentry) | 22 comments Thank you, Guitar Chick! I get so tired of people saying they are gay and sexualizing their friendship. Not everything is about sex, which may come as a shock to some people.

The way Tolkien wrote their relationship is very beautiful. Let's remember that most of us do not go through life-and-death situations with our close friends and so many of us do not attain the level of intimacy that would naturally stem from such.

Sam respected and loved Frodo for who he was, willingly putting himself in dangerous situations in order to protect him. While I'm sure Frodo initially viewed Sam as more of a helper in the beginning, by the end of the quest, I'm sure he came to love and respect Sam for who he was as well.

Let's not forget about the friendship between Legolas and Gimli. An awesome example of what can happen when we overcome differences, stereotypes, etc.


message 35: by Chris (new)

Chris | 21 comments Also Gimli and galderial thought that was more or respect and adrmince.


message 36: by Randi (new)

Randi (The Artist Formerly known as Guitar Chick) (guitarchick) | 56 comments I am so ashmaed of the world. We have to relate everything to sex or being gay or some dirtiness. I feel like this topic should deleted. It's pretty stupid to think that.


message 37: by Jennifer (new)

Jennifer Gentry (authorjennifergentry) | 22 comments Guitar Chick wrote: "I am so ashmaed of the world. We have to relate everything to sex or being gay or some dirtiness. I feel like this topic should deleted. It's pretty stupid to think that. "

In total agreement!




message 38: by Randi (new)

Randi (The Artist Formerly known as Guitar Chick) (guitarchick) | 56 comments Unfourtanatly, the mod apparently has like, gone on permanant vacation.


message 39: by Stephen light (new)

Stephen light aww darn thats a bummer!


message 40: by Randi (new)

Randi (The Artist Formerly known as Guitar Chick) (guitarchick) | 56 comments Isn't it? Check his last log in date on the home page. Pretty ancient. But all the other LOTR groups looked more like fan clubs for the movies.


message 41: by Chris (new)

Chris | 21 comments I agree with the movie thing You can't get any intulecullal dissusion out of them. :)


message 42: by Randi (new)

Randi (The Artist Formerly known as Guitar Chick) (guitarchick) | 56 comments Yeah. And most of them haven't even read any of the books on Tolkein. I mean, I'll probably join one of them after I'ver finished watching all the movies again, but got now, I'm more interested in the books.


message 43: by Lindsey (new)

Lindsey | 11 comments I like to compare their relationship to that of soldiers in the war. They would die for each other! It's really touching.


message 44: by Sarah (new)

Sarah Davis (keamymayloken) | 11 comments I don't think there gay....we are looking at what there doing from are WORLD prospective, this book was written in a different time and an alternate reality....things are very different.


message 45: by Jennifer (new)

Jennifer Gentry (authorjennifergentry) | 22 comments Alicia wrote: "What we in the 21st century cannot grasp is the concept of devotion to your employer. Sam is devoted to Frodo as a servant is devoted to his master. He keeps calling him Master Frodo, remember? F..."

Well said about servant/master, Alicia. For some reason I missed this. And yes, they are not peers, because socially they are in different classes, and they are different ages as well.

The Gaffer is, I believe, Sam's father. I may be mistaken, but it seems like "Gaffer" was a term the poorer hobbits used for their fathers. Maybe I'm wrong there, but I always assumed it was a Father/Son relationship.

With his Catholic upbringing, I honestly think Tolkien would've been horrified to know people classify Sam & Frodo's relationship as anything other than platonic. Even Erin's not gay-but not in romantic love or whatever. As much as people want to discredit it, Tolkien wrote with his Catholic world-view in mind. These books are not allegorical as Lewis' Chronicles of Narnia are, but they *were* written from a certain worldview.


message 46: by Anne (new)

Anne Gazzolo I am glad most people here realize the truth of Frodo and Sam's love for each other and speak of it so beautifully. The best prism to see Sam’s love for Frodo is through the words of a woman I once knew who is not even familiar with the story, but has been told by friends about it, who said, “It’s the purest kind of love. From soul to soul.” She echoes The Gospel According to Tolkien by Ralph C. Wood: “Sam and Frodo give incarnate life to what the Old Testament means when it describes a friend as a person ‘who is as your own soul.’ (Deut. 13:6). Their mutual regard is also akin to the friendship of Jonathan and David: ‘the soul of Jonathan was knit to the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul’ (1 Sam 18:1).”

Elijah Wood described their relationship beautifully when he said: “Quite simply, it is love. [...] It is that unconditional love that says, regardless of what you do or where you go, I will always be there for you” (The Lord of the Rings: Official Movie Guide). Sean Astin is quite emphatic also: "I don’t believe Sam and Frodo are homosexual. I really don’t. [...] To me, The Lord of the Rings depicts a powerful bond of love between two male hobbits, with the complete absence of sexuality. In that sense, it’s remarkably innocent and pure. [...] As far as I’m concerned, it comes down to this: Sam is the best friend anyone could ever hope for. His relationship with Frodo is a perfect study in dedication, devotion, and heartfelt companionship. Despite the hundreds of interactions I’ve had with folks who prefer to see the bond of Frodo and Sam through a prism of homoeroticism, I remain convinced that the power of their friendship derives primarily from the purity and innocence of their love for one another" (There and Back Again: An Actor’s Tale).

I've written an essay on the love of Sam for Frodo and Frodo for all Middle-earth:
http://momentsofgracelotr.com/The-Mea...

I hope you enjoy!

Namarie, God bless, Anne Marie :)


message 47: by Jennifer (new)

Jennifer Gentry (authorjennifergentry) | 22 comments Anne Marie wrote: "I am glad most people here realize the truth of Frodo and Sam's love for each other and speak of it so beautifully. The best prism to see Sam’s love for Frodo is through the words of a woman I once..."


Awesome post, Anne Marie! I had not thought to compare their friendship with that of Jonathan & David from the Bible. But it is the same! :-)

It really annoys and angers me that people feel the need to sexualize this bond. Not everything in life is about sex or has a "hidden" meaning or agenda!

So thanks for your post. :-)


message 48: by Stephen light (new)

Stephen light Woa That was very very profound.... I too am very much glad that people can come to see the true nature of their relationship as the greatest of friends and as one soul. Very well done my friend. :D.
Why people always sexualize these things I will never come to know... as Jenny says... not everything is sex. Yay for people who understand this! haha :)


message 49: by Sarah (new)

Sarah Davis (keamymayloken) | 11 comments My brother who is not gay, has a very very good guy friend who has helped him through a lot of hard times. He even said he "loves him" he truly loves him as a good friend thats been there for him.
Thats what I see Frodo and Sam's friendship as.


message 50: by Jennifer (new)

Jennifer Gentry (authorjennifergentry) | 22 comments Keamy-Sarah wrote: "My brother who is not gay, has a very very good guy friend who has helped him through a lot of hard times. He even said he "loves him" he truly loves him as a good friend thats been there for him.
..."


That is awesome that your brother has such a good friend like that. I've always been curious why it's more acceptable for women to have women friends that close (mostly without raising eyebrows), but not men?


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