Can't stop thinking of plagarism

[Stephanie]

The entire series is too much like Jessica Shirvington's Embrace series... I gave up 1/4 of the way through City Of Bones and also looked up the sumarys for the rest of them and I just said HELL NO!

[Daniel]

Steffi wrote: "The entire series is too much like Jessica Shirvington's Embrace series... I gave up 1/4 of the way through City Of Bones and also looked up the sumarys for the rest of them and I just said HELL NO!"

You do know City of Bones came out years before Shirvington's Embrace series right?

[Stephanie]

Yeah I know, that. Hahah I mean that I can't read it. It's me.

[Avalon]

Honestly if everyone wasn't so busy idolizing Harry Potter they'd realize Rowling also has inspiration from other things. All authors do this sort of thing, they just add in enough differences that it can kind of be called their own spin on it. If during the time you were reading City of Bones is the first time you realized this, honestly, you should open your eyes a little more.

As for the whole "tormented teenage guy", um, have you only read like four books and decided everyone who had a character like that copied the oldest? News flash, girls nowadays almost always lean towards the guy with the tragic past character and a book is a product, made to be sold, so obviously there's going to be a guy like that in it to appeal to the hormonal girls.

[Jennifer]

Avalon wrote: "Honestly if everyone wasn't so busy idolizing Harry Potter they'd realize Rowling also has inspiration from other things. All authors do this sort of thing, they just add in enough differences that..."
Well not only that they are made to be sold... we writers love to make tormented, Most time dangerous, boys into true loves.... because that is the only time we can force a male to do any thing :p

[Rachel]

Theoretically every writing could be plagiarized! Every book has some overlapping scheme or event like other books. Every book is similar to at least one other book in one way or another. Writers are influenced by many things including what they read!

[Stephanie]

Rachel wrote: "Theoretically every writing could be plagiarized! Every book has some overlapping scheme or event like other books. Every book is similar to at least one other book in one way or another. Writers a..."

Yeah.. pretty much every YA novel has the same thing too. Boy meets girl, love/hate, complication/attack, hero>> The End

[Azrael]

CONCLUSION:
We are all plagiarists!

[Nkollins]

There are two issues at hand in the case of Clare. The first being an allegation of similar content in her books to that other works. The second issue being allegations of plagiarism in her fanfiction works. To the first issue I do see some similarities, however, it would be ridiculous to say that any work is original--even Shakespeare was a plagiarist in the strictest sense of the concept. To the second issue, I have more to say. No matter if the material was un-cited or poorly cited, the fact of the matter is that there were some very clear issues of plagiarism. Of course, there is the case of "paying homage," but that does not allow for ignoring proper citation. As a teacher, if a student were to turn something in to me that had even a single quote or piece of writing that was written by another, it would be automatic failure. We want our children to look up to good role models. If we encourage people to look up to plagiarists and thieves how can we tell our children that plagiarism and theft is bad, illegal? That I despise Clare is simply a principle. I do believe in second chances, and they must be earned, not given.

[Daniel]

Nkollins wrote: "There are two issues at hand in the case of Clare. The first being an allegation of similar content in her books to that other works. The second issue being allegations of plagiarism in her fanfi..."

I'm glad I never had an idiot teacher like you. Everything everyone writes has been written by another. So by your logic everyone should get automatic fails. What if it was a coincidence? Automatic fail? Yeah, you need to be fired.
Also, please show this proof of plagiarism.
You say "We want our children to look up to good role models. If we encourage people to look up to plagiarists and thieves how can we tell our children that plagiarism and theft is bad, illegal?" So it's alright to discredit someone with out proper evidence? I have yet to see one piece of evidence that is not hearsay regarding this matter. What is that telling our children?

[Diane]

Daniel wrote: "Nkollins wrote: "There are two issues at hand in the case of Clare. The first being an allegation of similar content in her books to that other works. The second issue being allegations of plagia..."

Well, some Cassie stans just brush off detailed accounts of her fanfic-days plagiarism with "but that evidence could be a set up! it's all lies!" even though there hasn't been any evidence to counter the very detailed bad_penny allegations.

If Cassie Clare, did in fact, NOT take direct quotes and passages from other authors, there would have been evidence of it and loyal fans could back her up. But they best they got was "she cited some of her sources, she couldn't have cited them all". Knowing that Cassie Clare has a lawyer friend, if the allegations in the bad penny livejournal is were fact erroneous, she could have easily have it taken down. It's libel! Defamation of character!

There was an excuse about a quote identifying game going on. Which only furthers the argument of her using unattributed quotes.

[SHINY]

I quite honestly don't see why so many people are accusing Cassandra Clare of plagiarizing. There aren't really any huge similarities. Mortal Instruments and Harry Potter are both creative pieces of work by fantastic authors. Why can't people just accept and enjoy the books for what they are and not be so judgemental about things.

[Diane]

Shiny wrote: "I quite honestly don't see why so many people are accusing Cassandra Clare of plagiarizing. There aren't really any huge similarities. Mortal Instruments and Harry Potter are both creative pieces o..."

To be clear, I'm talking about the fanfic Draco-Trilogy (which had a lot of quotes and passages lifted from other stories).
To my knowledge Mortal Instruments doesn't have plagiarism issues (aside from self-plagiarism, which I don't particularly think anything is wrong with).

I have no problem with people enjoying her books or fanfics. I even enjoy some of it myself.
Still, it's important to discuss plagiarism, attribution, and ethics.

[Jennifer]

Diane wrote: "Shiny wrote: "I quite honestly don't see why so many people are accusing Cassandra Clare of plagiarizing. There aren't really any huge similarities. Mortal Instruments and Harry Potter are both cre..."
I quoted direct lyrics on my glee fanfic, in fact i advice my readers to listen to the song while reading. You don't get credit, payment, or anything but kuddos from fanfic. and sometimes if you can carry a story, an opportunity for you own work.

[Diane]

Jennifer wrote: "Diane wrote: "Shiny wrote: "I quite honestly don't see why so many people are accusing Cassandra Clare of plagiarizing. There aren't really any huge similarities. Mortal Instruments and Harry Pott..."

Would some people mistake those lyrics to be written by you?

You even advice your readers to listen to the song. That counts as crediting the original source. Which is very good practice for fanfiction.

But say if an author takes a whole passage from a book. But doesn't specifically mention that particular part is not theirs. That could count as wrongful appropriation because people aren't aware that he/she is not the person who wrote it.

Just my 2 cents.

[Diane]

Daniel wrote: "Diane wrote: "Daniel wrote: "Nkollins wrote: "There are two issues at hand in the case of Clare. The first being an allegation of similar content in her books to that other works. The second iss..."

By simply pointing out the errors in the report. Countering the allegations, point by point; presenting evidence to the contrary. If the details are erroneous, that shouldn't be so hard.

So it doesn't count if the authors didn't care?
The author's concern is hardly a legal counter to a serious allegation. The original author's wrath is not a prerequisite for a work to be considered plagiarism.

Playing guess the author is piss poor reason to not cite your sources (at least cite the sources at a different location, or after the game). To her credit, she did cite a fair few of them. But IMO, if you're going put in the effort to copy work, you better put in the effort to credit original sources.

To some people, it IS a big deal to misrepresent your work and some of CC's readers (or ex-readers) think she did just that.

[Diane]

Daniel wrote: "Diane wrote: "Daniel wrote: "Diane wrote: "Daniel wrote: "Nkollins wrote: "There are two issues at hand in the case of Clare. The first being an allegation of similar content in her books to tha..."

So now we're nitpicking word choice instead of staying on topic? And apparently jumping to conclusions about age (because older people are always wiser lol; ad hominem anyone?).

If you didn't want to continue the conversation, you just could've just said so.

Daniel wrote: "I will say this though. She did cite it after and it's not plagiarism if the original Author is okay with it."

SERIOUSLY? No. That's not how plagiarism works.

Could you be confusing plagiarism with copyright infringement? Because it seems like you are.

[Diane]

Why'd you delete your previous message? Because it made you look bad?
Recap for anyone who is interested. Daniel accused me of being 11 and pretending to be smart by using "smart" words. He also expressed doubt whether I was old enough to understand what happened during the CC fanfic days.

Maybe if all of it was just one-liners, CC's excuse of not remembering might be a little more believable. But whole passages? That seems unlikely that you can't remember where it's from.

Daniel wrote: "If she got the ok from the original Author, then it is not plagiarism. That is exactly how plagiarism works."

No, that's not how it works. It's not copyright infringement (anymore) and there will be no need for legal action (unless the publisher protests).
But that doesn't stop it from being plagiarism.

[Melissa]

Kyle wrote: "I've read the whole series and I didn't notice anything like that when I was reading. It's her own world and she can do whatever she likes with it. Lots of people say that some of the characters re..."

Completely agree. There cant be a completely new characters made, because then people, first of all, will have no similarities (which makes them appear more human) and second of all will be a very screwed up race, because every one will be completely different, and thats just not how it is.

[Daniel]

Diane wrote: "Why'd you delete your previous message? Because it made you look bad?
Recap for anyone who is interested. Daniel accused me of being 11 and pretending to be smart by using "smart" words. He also e..."

No, it didn't make me look bad. It made you look bad. I took it down because I thought I might have been too harsh, but it seems I wasn't. You are just an ignorant little kid.
You're here talking about plagiarism with out any proof. I'm still waiting for it. Have been since this topic started. Nobody seems to have any, yet you still say she plagiarized

[Diane]

Daniel wrote: "No, it didn't make me look bad. It made you look bad. I took it down because I thought I might have been too harsh, but it seems I wasn't. You are just an ignorant little kid."

Honestly it made you look like you were trying divert the topic by ad hominem attacks.

You also took down your other comment, I wonder why.


You said it yourself: Daniel said: "She did cite it after and it's not plagiarism if the original Author is okay with it."

Which means she only added attribution after people pointed it out (huge chunks of text and no credit, tsk tsk). Which means she plagiarized.

And as stated, plagiarism and copyright infringement aren't the same thing.

[Diane]

Bolded for emphasis.
Daniel said: "I'm not arguing the fact that she used someone else's work. She admitted that, she also admits the game they had going on. So they were playing a game of name that author or whatever. What's wrong with that?"

Using someone else's work. Check.
Without attribution. Check.

Plagiarism is using other people's original work without crediting them as the source. Copyright infringement, or copyright violation, is using copyrighted material without getting permission.
source: http://anrcs.ucanr.edu/

Both of these are considered acts of plagiarism:
*copying words or ideas from someone else without giving credit
*changing words but copying the sentence structure of a source without giving credit

source: plagiarism.org

Using someone else's thoughts or ideas as your own without properly giving credit is plagiarism.
source: Penn State University libraries website

[Loretta]

I really don't think this is plagiarism. The characters are HER characters, i doubt Harry Potter had anyone like Jace or Alec or Clary. I mean, if we're comparing characters here, there is bound to be some similarities, hell, even in real life people have the same interests don't they? Does that mean we're copies of each other?

[A]

Antonina wrote: "I am surprised but unsurprised at this. I’ve harboured an ugly hatred for the author after she had a go at me on Twitter in Latin (because she is too cowardly to use English) after I had mentioned ..."

Amen to that!!!

[Daniel]

Diane wrote: "Daniel wrote: "No, it didn't make me look bad. It made you look bad. I took it down because I thought I might have been too harsh, but it seems I wasn't. You are just an ignorant little kid."

Hone..."

I deleted my comments because I didn't want to continue this. I also hadn't dad my coffe yet, so just disregard any previous comments.
Yes I did say she cited it after
You also said "(at least cite the sources at a different location, or after the game)"

I actually don't know if she cited it before or after. I read one thing that said she cited it after, I read another that said she never cited it at all and I read one that said she did cite it, just not properly.
I have read many articles on this issue. What actually happened seems to vary from article to article. I haven't actually seen any evidence other than hearsay.

[Daniel]

Diane wrote: "Bolded for emphasis.
Daniel said: "I'm not arguing the fact that she used someone else's work. She admitted that, she also admits the game they had going on. So they were playing a game of name tha..."

Plagiarism

1. an act or instance of using or closely imitating the language and thoughts of another author without authorization and the representation of that author's work as one's own, as by not crediting the original author

2.a piece of writing or other work reflecting such unauthorized use or imitation

Yes, I know what plagiarism is.
What if she had permission from the Author, but didn't cite it until after because they had a game going?

[Lorinda]

Amrita wrote: "Sy wrote: "Ashley wrote: "Camden wrote: "The book is interesting enough but one can't help but think how much of the description and witty dialogues are actually her doing or if it's repeated plagi..."
How exactly can you plagiarize something that is already yours and that you made up yourself?

My thoughts exactly, you can't plagiarze yourself, it belongs to you!

[Kylie]

Oh how I want to kill you all...

[Daniel]

Kylie wrote: "Oh how I want to kill you all..."

That's nice :)

[Diane]

Daniel wrote: "I deleted my comments because I didn't want to continue this. I also hadn't dad my coffe yet, so just disregard any previous comments."

Oh so that's how you express "not wanting to continue this conversation"? Seems to me that you didn't do that with conversations with other posters.

Like I said, you could've just told me you didn't want to continue the conversation (or not reply at all).

Then you tell me to disregard your previous comments? At least stand by your arguments.
But then again you used hearsay and assumptions to support your arguments (which you admitted yourself Daniel said: "I actually don't know if she cited it before or after." Which is what you criticized people (and me) for doing. Isn't that a little hypocritical?

And about plagiarism and copyright infringement, did you read what I posted? There IS a difference and you can't just ignore that just because it doesn't further your argument.
There is a nuance that dictionary meanings fail to explain.

Daniel wrote: "What if she had permission from the Author, but didn't cite it until after because they had a game going? "

Then aren't you speculating the same as everyone else who you criticized for speculating on hearsay? Again, a little hypocritical.

And if say, that was CC's intention, wouldn't she outright specify that she will give out the answers after the game? There is no evidence (or hearsay) to support that it was her intention.
But then again, if you use lines without attribution that's still plagiarism. Game or not.

It was the reason she was booted from ff.net (and transferred to FictionAlley), was it not?

[Kylie]

Daniel wrote: "Kylie wrote: "Oh how I want to kill you all..."

That's nice :)"

I know right!

[Daniel]

Diane wrote: "Daniel wrote: "I deleted my comments because I didn't want to continue this. I also hadn't dad my coffe yet, so just disregard any previous comments."

Oh so that's how you express "not wanting to ..."

You are ignorant aren't you?
Again, you have no clue what you're talking about. I'm just not even going to respond anymore. Little kids never understand anything.
I'm not speculating the same as everyone else. Innocent until proven guilty. Yet you people are still saying she's guilty without the proof. Get your fucking head out of your ass and actually think before you type.

[Shelly]

Daniel wrote: "Diane wrote: "Daniel wrote: "I deleted my comments because I didn't want to continue this. I also hadn't dad my coffe yet, so just disregard any previous comments."

Oh so that's how you express "..."

Lol you can keep talking all you want. Dumb bitches like her will never comprehend how thinks work.

[Daniel]

Shelly wrote: "Daniel wrote: "Diane wrote: "Daniel wrote: "I deleted my comments because I didn't want to continue this. I also hadn't dad my coffe yet, so just disregard any previous comments."

Oh so that's ho..."

Your bad language is rubbing off on me. Go away :)

[Diane]

Shelly wrote: "Lol you can keep talking all you want. Dumb bitches like her will never comprehend how thinks work. "

Yes, name calling. So mature.
That totally makes me get your side of the argument.
Totally.

Why don't you support your arguments with actual substance? Rather than attacking everyone who disagrees with you?

[Shelly]

Diane wrote: "Shelly wrote: "Lol you can keep talking all you want. Dumb bitches like her will never comprehend how thinks work. "

Yes, name calling. So mature.
That totally makes me get your side of the argume..."

Wow, he's right, you are ignorant.
He did support his argument you dumbass. You're just too stupid to understand

[Diane]

Daniel wrote: "I'm not speculating the same as everyone else. "

Here are the following speculations you put forward based on hearsay:

*What if she had permission from the Author, but didn't cite it until after because they had a game going?

* The author everyone is accusing her of plagiarizing didn't even care. That author wasn't the one who had a problem with it. None of the authors did.

I find this hard to believe because there aren't any quotations supporting whether or not all the authors she had copied from are okay with their work being copied.

* She did cite it after and it's not plagiarism if the original Author is okay with it

You said it yourself, that you didn't know really. And you can't really support this one without using the hearsay (which you disapprove of doing).

If there is evidence and documentation of a wrongdoing and it's false. It should be easy to disprove this.

You aren't really sure she's innocent, are you? You're just saying, because the evidence is insufficient, therefore she MUST be innocent. Which is a fallacy (probably works in court, but this ain't court).
I'm just trying to get to the bottom of this.

Again, if you don't want to respond. Don't. You've been threatening to discontinue this conversation and yet here you are still.

[Diane]

Shelly wrote: "Wow, he's right, you are ignorant.
He did support his argument you dumbass. You're just too stupid to understand
."

I MEAN YOU. Support your goddamn arguments if you don't like mine, instead of piggy backing on someone else's.

So quick to call names and yet so slow.

[Shelly]

Diane wrote: "Shelly wrote: "Wow, he's right, you are ignorant.
He did support his argument you dumbass. You're just too stupid to understand
."

I MEAN YOU. Support your goddamn arguments if you don't like min..."

Lol you're funny.
You are the one that needs to support your argument. You are accusing someone without proof. The defense doesn't need to support anything.

[Diane]

Shelly wrote: "You are the one that needs to support your argument. You are accusing someone without proof. The defense doesn't need to support anything.
"

If the proof I'm presenting is erroneous, the defense needs to counter argument (and no I don't mean "that's not true!"; I mean present posts that disprove the argument). Daniel has said there are posts that say Cassandra Clare did write disclaimers and credit before people accused her of plagiarism. Why not post them?

And if you're not going to do that calling me names will do nothing for your cause except make you look childish.

[Shelly]

Diane wrote: "Shelly wrote: "You are the one that needs to support your argument. You are accusing someone without proof. The defense doesn't need to support anything.
"

If the proof I'm presenting is erroneou..."

Do you even read what you post? Do you have a comprehension problem?
You haven't shown any proof! That's what the fuck were talking about! You want us to show proof when you haven't even done that.

[Diane]

Shelly wrote: "Lol you can keep talking all you want. Dumb bitches like her will never comprehend how thinks work."

Also you called me a bitch without proof that
a.) I'm female
b.) I'm a dog

Name on goodreads and picture could've been fabricated to make you believe lies.

See what I did there?
The fact of uncertainty doesn't stop you from calling me a bitch why should it stop me from presenting my case?

[Diane]

Shelly wrote: "Do you even read what you post? Do you have a comprehension problem?
You haven't shown any proof! That's what the fuck were talking about! You want us to show proof when you haven't even done that.."

Havveeee you tried skimming the comments of this thread??

Here is the link of my comment. LINK

You can start counter-arguing with the bad penny livejournal (that's plenty to counter argue)and I'll list more later.

[Shelly]

Diane wrote: "Shelly wrote: "Lol you can keep talking all you want. Dumb bitches like her will never comprehend how thinks work."

Also you called me a bitch without proof that
a.) I'm female
b.) I'm a dog

Na..."

You haven't fucking presented a case. All you did was present rumors.
Also, nice comment, that doesn't tell us you're a little kid at all.

[Daniel]

Shelly wrote: "Diane wrote: "Shelly wrote: "Lol you can keep talking all you want. Dumb bitches like her will never comprehend how thinks work."

Also you called me a bitch without proof that
a.) I'm female
b...."

You're wasting your time. She doesn't understand anything.

[Daniel]

Shelly wrote: "Diane wrote: "Shelly wrote: "Lol you can keep talking all you want. Dumb bitches like her will never comprehend how thinks work."

Also you called me a bitch without proof that
a.) I'm female
b...."

see how she posts links of hearsay? Yeah, she thinks thats evidence. You know, cause nobody on the internet could possibly lie.

[Diane]

Shelly wrote: "Diane wrote: "Shelly wrote: "Lol you can keep talking all you want. Dumb bitches like her will never comprehend how thinks work."

Also you called me a bitch without proof that
a.) I'm female
b...."

Again. If they are rumors and not true then there should be people showing their own timeline of things that happened and their version of the story. CC has plenty of devoted fans, it shouldn't be so hard to find someone who was there and know how things went down.


If I robbed a bank and there was no footage but a couple of witnesses. Does it mean that I did NOT rob a bank at all???

[Diane]

Daniel wrote: "Shelly wrote: "Diane wrote: "Shelly wrote: "Lol you can keep talking all you want. Dumb bitches like her will never comprehend how thinks work."

Also you called me a bitch without proof that
a...."

Didn't you also use hearsay to SUPPORT your argument of CC innocence?
HYPOCRITE.

[Shelly]

Diane wrote: "Daniel wrote: "Shelly wrote: "Diane wrote: "Shelly wrote: "Lol you can keep talking all you want. Dumb bitches like her will never comprehend how thinks work."

Also you called me a bitch without..."

No he was trying to tell you that it is all hearsay. Therefore it is up to you to provide evidence.

[Shelly]

Diane wrote: "Shelly wrote: "Diane wrote: "Shelly wrote: "Lol you can keep talking all you want. Dumb bitches like her will never comprehend how thinks work."

Also you called me a bitch without proof that
a...."

"If I robbed a bank and there was no footage but a couple of witnesses. Does it mean that I did NOT rob a bank at all??? "

It would then be up to the accusers to provide evidence. Witnesses alone are not enough