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ARCHIVE - 5. HERODOTUS - THE HISTORIES~BOOK III/SECTIONS 1-77 (10/13/08 - 10/19/08) ~ No spoilers, please
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I hadn't thought of that Tim! There is this theme that runs through H as well as all literature, that women are "to blame". I suppose if the woman had kept her mouth shut then no one would have known but really, she was just a pawn. The beginning of book 1 starts with the history of abductions of women as the cause of all the strife in the world. I guess this is just one more... Good point!
I hadn't thought of that Tim! There is this theme that runs through H as well as all literature, that women are "to blame". I suppose if the woman had kept her mouth shut then no one would have known but really, she was just a pawn. The beginning of book 1 starts with the history of abductions of women as the cause of all the strife in the world. I guess this is just one more... Good point!
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I can't find that sentence you highlighted. My transaltion goes "it was this little speech that caused Cambyses son of Cyrus, to become extremely enraged with Egypt". I think that's the sentence you quoted. I thought he was enraged because he'd been duped. He wanted the princess, daughter of Amasis, but instead got the daughter of Apries, Amasis' former master whom he murdered when the Egyptians revolted.
Anyone else think that Phane feigned (hope I spelled that right) loyalty? LOL
I can't find that sentence you highlighted. My transaltion goes "it was this little speech that caused Cambyses son of Cyrus, to become extremely enraged with Egypt". I think that's the sentence you quoted. I thought he was enraged because he'd been duped. He wanted the princess, daughter of Amasis, but instead got the daughter of Apries, Amasis' former master whom he murdered when the Egyptians revolted.
Anyone else think that Phane feigned (hope I spelled that right) loyalty? LOL
Message 5
Vandiver says that H got a lot of his information about Cambyses from an Egyptian, so it's a very negative view of him. They may have even embellished, he was so hated.
It's interesting how the statues of gods were viewed. Your comment reminds me of the story of how Abraham became monotheistic. I apologize if you've heard this before, but Abraham's father was an idol-maker. One day his father had to leave and told Abraham to watch over the shop. Abraham knew that idols could not be gods and he broke them. He put the hammer in the hand of one of the idols. When his father returned he yelled at Abraham. Abraham said "The idol did it". His father did not believe it. So Abraham pointed out that if he did not believe that one idol could break another, he certainly could not believe that an idol had any power at all. The logic was supposed to have convinced his father.
I think there must have been some thrill in flaunting the "god" even if he didn't believe in it. Yes, it does impart some power to the idol. I may not believe that walking under a ladder or opening an umbrella in the house will bring bad luck but I might avoid doing those things anyway. OTH, I might do them just to prove how brave I am or how unsuperstious I am.
Vandiver says that H got a lot of his information about Cambyses from an Egyptian, so it's a very negative view of him. They may have even embellished, he was so hated.
It's interesting how the statues of gods were viewed. Your comment reminds me of the story of how Abraham became monotheistic. I apologize if you've heard this before, but Abraham's father was an idol-maker. One day his father had to leave and told Abraham to watch over the shop. Abraham knew that idols could not be gods and he broke them. He put the hammer in the hand of one of the idols. When his father returned he yelled at Abraham. Abraham said "The idol did it". His father did not believe it. So Abraham pointed out that if he did not believe that one idol could break another, he certainly could not believe that an idol had any power at all. The logic was supposed to have convinced his father.
I think there must have been some thrill in flaunting the "god" even if he didn't believe in it. Yes, it does impart some power to the idol. I may not believe that walking under a ladder or opening an umbrella in the house will bring bad luck but I might avoid doing those things anyway. OTH, I might do them just to prove how brave I am or how unsuperstious I am.
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I've heard that among the ancients some level of respect was usually accorded religious artifacts, even of enemies. Maybe they liked to hedge their bets. Or maybe there is a kind of general respect for the divine. My parents would always buy the Watchtower from Jehovah witnesses, out of respect. I was taught to always pay respect to the beliefs of others. To disrespect an idol, it seems to me, might have been quite a rush. BTW, he burned the idols. Remember what was said about the Persians believing that fire was a god? Or was that the Egyptians?
OK 3.16 Persians believe that fire is a god. Egyptians believe fire is a living and breathing animal, one which devours evrething it receives until it is full of food, then perishes together with what it has eaten. So in either culture burning a corpse is verboten. I wonder how that fits into burning idols?
I've heard that among the ancients some level of respect was usually accorded religious artifacts, even of enemies. Maybe they liked to hedge their bets. Or maybe there is a kind of general respect for the divine. My parents would always buy the Watchtower from Jehovah witnesses, out of respect. I was taught to always pay respect to the beliefs of others. To disrespect an idol, it seems to me, might have been quite a rush. BTW, he burned the idols. Remember what was said about the Persians believing that fire was a god? Or was that the Egyptians?
OK 3.16 Persians believe that fire is a god. Egyptians believe fire is a living and breathing animal, one which devours evrething it receives until it is full of food, then perishes together with what it has eaten. So in either culture burning a corpse is verboten. I wonder how that fits into burning idols?
I realized today that I love reading this because it's a tale of people. H tells us history through the individuals involved and as a lover of People magazine, this appeals to me. He analyzes their psychology and motives. Even the way he gives us tidbits of everyday juicy gossip, this is ancient celebrity news. He has "blind" items, different stories from different sources. It feels modern..
I love the way he explains how Psammenitos did not cry over his son and daughter because it was too painful, but he fell apart when he saw his drinking buddy. This is so insightful and human and heartbreakingly true.
I was wondering. Earlier H. says emphatically that Persians don't lie. Each time he tells a "Persian" version of the story I wonder if we're supposed to believe that one, or has he forgotten what he originally said?
Also, I thought it interesting how he described the Persians as "bread eaters". That's what the Greeks called themselves in the Odyssey. I think it means they are "civilized". They have agriculture. Ethiopians don't. Archaelogists can tell when a population has moved on from a hunting gathering society into an agricultural one because the people are shorter, sicker, and have rotten teeth. So I appreciated the Ethiopian attitude toward bread-eaters who can live to only 80!
I love the way he explains how Psammenitos did not cry over his son and daughter because it was too painful, but he fell apart when he saw his drinking buddy. This is so insightful and human and heartbreakingly true.
I was wondering. Earlier H. says emphatically that Persians don't lie. Each time he tells a "Persian" version of the story I wonder if we're supposed to believe that one, or has he forgotten what he originally said?
Also, I thought it interesting how he described the Persians as "bread eaters". That's what the Greeks called themselves in the Odyssey. I think it means they are "civilized". They have agriculture. Ethiopians don't. Archaelogists can tell when a population has moved on from a hunting gathering society into an agricultural one because the people are shorter, sicker, and have rotten teeth. So I appreciated the Ethiopian attitude toward bread-eaters who can live to only 80!
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That's so interesting about the Korean girl.
That's so interesting about the Korean girl.
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The Landmark says that Cambyses had epilepsy and that's what led to his madness. But with an ancestor like Astyages, it seems it was in the genes.
The Landmark says that Cambyses had epilepsy and that's what led to his madness. But with an ancestor like Astyages, it seems it was in the genes.
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I was listening to Vandiver on this point and she pointed out that the misinterpretation of the oracles reveal a combination of hubris and bad judgement. It made me think of what was to come, Socrates. These people jumped to the wrong conclusion. They should have questioned. They should have examined the prophecy from different angles. I absolutely love seeing how the Greek milieu actually gave birth to the golden age of reason and questioning.
I'm reading Aristotle's Physics now and he makes the point that everything has a purpose, a goal, an "end". That theme, is in H too. Count no man lucky till he's dead, etc. There's the same melody running through H and Aristotle and Sophocles, and all the rest.
I was listening to Vandiver on this point and she pointed out that the misinterpretation of the oracles reveal a combination of hubris and bad judgement. It made me think of what was to come, Socrates. These people jumped to the wrong conclusion. They should have questioned. They should have examined the prophecy from different angles. I absolutely love seeing how the Greek milieu actually gave birth to the golden age of reason and questioning.
I'm reading Aristotle's Physics now and he makes the point that everything has a purpose, a goal, an "end". That theme, is in H too. Count no man lucky till he's dead, etc. There's the same melody running through H and Aristotle and Sophocles, and all the rest.
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Could you explain a little bit about the tension between nature and custom in the Sophist school?
Could you explain a little bit about the tension between nature and custom in the Sophist school?
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That's life, isn't it? What we try to avoid we draw toward ourselves.
That's life, isn't it? What we try to avoid we draw toward ourselves.
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I just looked up the poem. I think I understand what you mean about the Sophists, that values are relative, right? Custom trumps biology and everything else. I'll have to check out how it's used in context.
I just looked up the poem. I think I understand what you mean about the Sophists, that values are relative, right? Custom trumps biology and everything else. I'll have to check out how it's used in context.
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My take on it is that he quotes Pindar in order to prove that Cambyses had to really be out of his mind if he destroyed the idols. Persians generally allowed conquered people to manage themselves. They just had to give earth and water and pay taxes. I think they understood that it's easier to rule a people if you allow them to keep their religions and customs. H, I think, is saying that Cambyses was out of his mind to attack religious symbols.
BTW, Vandiver mentions that there is some doubt that he was really mad as he was a good and efficient ruler of Babylon.
I thought perhaps epilepsy can cause brain damage. Long convulsions can, I think, deprive the brain of oxygen.
My take on it is that he quotes Pindar in order to prove that Cambyses had to really be out of his mind if he destroyed the idols. Persians generally allowed conquered people to manage themselves. They just had to give earth and water and pay taxes. I think they understood that it's easier to rule a people if you allow them to keep their religions and customs. H, I think, is saying that Cambyses was out of his mind to attack religious symbols.
BTW, Vandiver mentions that there is some doubt that he was really mad as he was a good and efficient ruler of Babylon.
I thought perhaps epilepsy can cause brain damage. Long convulsions can, I think, deprive the brain of oxygen.
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Good point.
I guess if you define evil as insanity then no. But it seems, in life, the evil sometimes fare well. In fact, better than the good.
Maybe the operative word is "capricious". But then capricious goodness can seem insane as well.
I've spent the morning trying to figure out Don Quixote, The Republic and Aristotle so my mind is filled with questions and no answers!
Good point.
I guess if you define evil as insanity then no. But it seems, in life, the evil sometimes fare well. In fact, better than the good.
Maybe the operative word is "capricious". But then capricious goodness can seem insane as well.
I've spent the morning trying to figure out Don Quixote, The Republic and Aristotle so my mind is filled with questions and no answers!
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Yes, I only wish I had an Aristolian mind! I think I'm relating more to Don Quixote who doesn't know what's what!
Yes, I only wish I had an Aristolian mind! I think I'm relating more to Don Quixote who doesn't know what's what!
I'm not sure if this is the place for this but I wanted to share with you something I learned last night. Western Anatolia was completely intertwined with the Greeks. The Lydian and Greek gods and goddesses were the same and the Lydian alphabet was very close to the Greek.
Did you get that feeling when reading H?
Did you get that feeling when reading H?
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Anatollia is Turkey. Western Anatolia, well, Western Turkey!
Anatollia is Turkey. Western Anatolia, well, Western Turkey!
I had another "woo-woo" experience yesterday. I was surprised to find myself reading about Siphnos. My son spent part of his honeymoon, 8 years ago, on Siphnos. I had never heard of it before. I haven't heard of it since. In my mind's eye it was a little piece of heaven, a kind of Utopia that only exists in the imagination. Last night, as I was reading I was so enthralled with the description of this island and it's wealth in gold and silver and it's importance. I wanted to call my son but stopped myself as he's so busy. In the middle of that little l/2 page segment the phone rang. I knew who it would be! I read it to him over the phone. He said you'd never know that it's the same island as the one that H is describing.
Every inch of Greece is just so full of history and myth and beauty!
Every inch of Greece is just so full of history and myth and beauty!
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Yes Tim, I think so. I think his method is to build up each place he describes, Egypt, Babylon, etc. in order to make the Greek triumph even more extraordinary. In the iliad, before each murder, Homer digresses and explains who the person about to be murdered is. It works dramatically as it creates a lot of pathos. But it also works to increase the glory of the soldier who is about to kill. Anyone can kill a slave. To kill a great warrior is a feat. I guess it's the difference between invading and conquering Grenada or defeating the German/Japanese war machine.
Egypt was the great civilization at the time. For the Persians to destroy them was an atrocity. But the idea that this loose conglomeration of bickering city-states (Greece) could fight off the conquerors of Egypt! That has to be a miracle!
Yes Tim, I think so. I think his method is to build up each place he describes, Egypt, Babylon, etc. in order to make the Greek triumph even more extraordinary. In the iliad, before each murder, Homer digresses and explains who the person about to be murdered is. It works dramatically as it creates a lot of pathos. But it also works to increase the glory of the soldier who is about to kill. Anyone can kill a slave. To kill a great warrior is a feat. I guess it's the difference between invading and conquering Grenada or defeating the German/Japanese war machine.
Egypt was the great civilization at the time. For the Persians to destroy them was an atrocity. But the idea that this loose conglomeration of bickering city-states (Greece) could fight off the conquerors of Egypt! That has to be a miracle!
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Vandiver says that Herodotus is reporting what an Egyptian told him.
Vandiver says that Herodotus is reporting what an Egyptian told him.
message l8
This idea of fate drives me crazy! Fate is what happened so of course it can't be avoided! It has to be told in retrospect.
My Indian friend thinks and talks in these terms a lot. I really think that India is a time capsule where a lot of Greek culture has been preserved. Anyway, I hate the attitude that a belief in fate or destiny brings. It's passive. If someone is sick and it's their fate to die, then do nothing???? NO!
What it does do is help people cope with disaster. There's no personal responsiblity for what happens because... it was fate.
The oracle business is something else. Would we really want to know our destiny? There was a movie "Big Fish". In it people knew when and how they were going to die. I'd always thought that would be horrible, but what I hadn't thought of was that once we know this, we never have to be afraid of anything ever again. We know we won't die, except in the predicted way! But in H people misinterpret their fate. It's an amazing puzzle.
Actually, it just occured to me. Now they can test for breast cancer and ovarian cancer genes. Then what? Some people choose prophalactic mastecomies. Trying to avoid their fate.
But perhaps their fate is to be hit by a bus and they've done it for nothing! You know, I'm beginning to see the sense in this after all!
This idea of fate drives me crazy! Fate is what happened so of course it can't be avoided! It has to be told in retrospect.
My Indian friend thinks and talks in these terms a lot. I really think that India is a time capsule where a lot of Greek culture has been preserved. Anyway, I hate the attitude that a belief in fate or destiny brings. It's passive. If someone is sick and it's their fate to die, then do nothing???? NO!
What it does do is help people cope with disaster. There's no personal responsiblity for what happens because... it was fate.
The oracle business is something else. Would we really want to know our destiny? There was a movie "Big Fish". In it people knew when and how they were going to die. I'd always thought that would be horrible, but what I hadn't thought of was that once we know this, we never have to be afraid of anything ever again. We know we won't die, except in the predicted way! But in H people misinterpret their fate. It's an amazing puzzle.
Actually, it just occured to me. Now they can test for breast cancer and ovarian cancer genes. Then what? Some people choose prophalactic mastecomies. Trying to avoid their fate.
But perhaps their fate is to be hit by a bus and they've done it for nothing! You know, I'm beginning to see the sense in this after all!
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That term limit thing was weird, wasn't it? I read it over and over again and all I could come up with was that something was lost in translation.
That term limit thing was weird, wasn't it? I read it over and over again and all I could come up with was that something was lost in translation.
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What's so fascinating about H is how he gets into the psychology of these people. He reveals their character. Didn't some Greek say that a person's character is their fate? I can see how Greek tragedy was born around this time.
I was just watching a show on Richard Nixon. At the time of the Viet Nam war I remember thinking that we were in the midst of great global struggles, communism vs. freedom, etc. This show examined the time through the eyes of the president. It felt like Herodotus. I found myself trying to understand the psychology of this strange man, rather than the movements of the time. I'm left wondering, was Nixon really the architect of the time or was he pushed and pulled as much as the rest of us. This is one of those cases where, again, having lived through it, I can see it from inside and outside and I'm still not sure.
What's so fascinating about H is how he gets into the psychology of these people. He reveals their character. Didn't some Greek say that a person's character is their fate? I can see how Greek tragedy was born around this time.
I was just watching a show on Richard Nixon. At the time of the Viet Nam war I remember thinking that we were in the midst of great global struggles, communism vs. freedom, etc. This show examined the time through the eyes of the president. It felt like Herodotus. I found myself trying to understand the psychology of this strange man, rather than the movements of the time. I'm left wondering, was Nixon really the architect of the time or was he pushed and pulled as much as the rest of us. This is one of those cases where, again, having lived through it, I can see it from inside and outside and I'm still not sure.
Question...
In 3.80 the Landmark H seems to be using the word "tyrant" in our modern sense as an abusive monarch. This is not supposed to be the Greek use of the word and I was wondering if others have another translation.
Also, in 3.81, 3.82 H, is explaining the pros and cons of the different types of government, democracy, oligarchy, monarchy.
First, I love the way he says that the Hellenes don't believe Persians could have such a conversation. A little dig at the ethnocentricism and excessive pride of the Hellenes. The whole book, from the beginning where he warns that those on top today can easily fall tomorrow, seems to be a warning to the Greeks hubris.
It seems to me that Plato lifted the Republic from this discussion. I wonder if this was a common form of discourse at the time, so much has been lost. But he definitely followed this outline. Nothing comes from nothing and I kind of wish I'd read this first, before the Republic. The program I'm in is organized by concept. I've heard that in England (Oxford) these everything is read in chronological order, which I think makes sense.
In 3.80 the Landmark H seems to be using the word "tyrant" in our modern sense as an abusive monarch. This is not supposed to be the Greek use of the word and I was wondering if others have another translation.
Also, in 3.81, 3.82 H, is explaining the pros and cons of the different types of government, democracy, oligarchy, monarchy.
First, I love the way he says that the Hellenes don't believe Persians could have such a conversation. A little dig at the ethnocentricism and excessive pride of the Hellenes. The whole book, from the beginning where he warns that those on top today can easily fall tomorrow, seems to be a warning to the Greeks hubris.
It seems to me that Plato lifted the Republic from this discussion. I wonder if this was a common form of discourse at the time, so much has been lost. But he definitely followed this outline. Nothing comes from nothing and I kind of wish I'd read this first, before the Republic. The program I'm in is organized by concept. I've heard that in England (Oxford) these everything is read in chronological order, which I think makes sense.
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Whew! Glad you're ok. Hope your siblings are too. Now you can relax, a happy ending.
Isn't it amazing how the Greeks understood so much about being a human being?
Whew! Glad you're ok. Hope your siblings are too. Now you can relax, a happy ending.
Isn't it amazing how the Greeks understood so much about being a human being?
message 53
It just dawned on me, when we speak of "years" are we speaking of the same thing? Their calendars must have been different, the Greek calendar still is, isn't it? And the Ethiopians, I bet they lived to be l20 because they had different calendars!
It just dawned on me, when we speak of "years" are we speaking of the same thing? Their calendars must have been different, the Greek calendar still is, isn't it? And the Ethiopians, I bet they lived to be l20 because they had different calendars!
Not sure if this was mentioned before but I was just listening to another tape that explained that there is an Egyptian source that describes Cambyses in glowing terms. It says that he was respectful of the Egyptians and rebuilt their temples. The motives for such a report are unknowable.
I liked reading all of your comments about fate. Its certainly clear that the Greeks believe in it .. or don't at first and then it bites them in the butt. In any case, H. seems to be a believer.I've never been able to accept the idea of fate, except perhaps on a very macro level. I just don't understand what the point of living out a life that is preordained would be. Perhaps its my religion but.. I have to believe we have free will otherwise no one could ever be held responsible for their actions.
Is anyone else sometimes frustrated by H's tendency to "romanticize" events. Sometimes I feel like I am not getting the whole story about these different invasions, (its over a woman, its over a bowl, etc).. but just the common propoganda of the time and I want to know more.
I suppose its likely he didn't know all the reasons. Can you imagine asking someone on the street (even a fairly well educated person) the reasons for all the american wars in the last century. I suppose it would be about the same.
Do you remember when we first invaded Iraq and Bush was quoted as saying that Sadam had to be taken out because he had attempted to assassinate his father, Bush I? (Of course I'm paraphrasing here). That wasn't the real motivation for the Iraq war but one of Bush's well (how do I say this in a politically correct way, Bushisms...) As far as what the real reason actually was, I bet H. would have come up with more than 3 theories if he were writing about it today:)
Sarah
message 59
Thanks for the laugh! Very good! Yes, H would have had at least 3 explanations for the war and chosen one to believe. He sees everything as depending on the actions of individuals. There were lots of reasons to attack Iraq, I suppose, but I think it's possible to interpret it as a psychological need of Bush's to avenge and one-up his father...he didn't want to "cut and run". I bet Oliver Stone interprets it that way in "W", which i haven't seen but really want to. It's a lot more dramatic, or as you said romantic, isn't it? Getting into the psyches of these people rather than anaylyzing economic and power theories. It's kind of a contradiction, now that I think about it. He believed in "fate" and yet he explains the causes for everything as the independent and free choice of individuals.
I guess he's following in the footsteps of Homer who wrote that the Trojan was was caused by love for a beautiful woman rather than the desire for control of the bosphorous and access to the Black Sea and the land surrounding which was the bread basket of Greece! Much more romantic to say Helen's face launched all of those ships!
Thanks for the laugh! Very good! Yes, H would have had at least 3 explanations for the war and chosen one to believe. He sees everything as depending on the actions of individuals. There were lots of reasons to attack Iraq, I suppose, but I think it's possible to interpret it as a psychological need of Bush's to avenge and one-up his father...he didn't want to "cut and run". I bet Oliver Stone interprets it that way in "W", which i haven't seen but really want to. It's a lot more dramatic, or as you said romantic, isn't it? Getting into the psyches of these people rather than anaylyzing economic and power theories. It's kind of a contradiction, now that I think about it. He believed in "fate" and yet he explains the causes for everything as the independent and free choice of individuals.
I guess he's following in the footsteps of Homer who wrote that the Trojan was was caused by love for a beautiful woman rather than the desire for control of the bosphorous and access to the Black Sea and the land surrounding which was the bread basket of Greece! Much more romantic to say Helen's face launched all of those ships!
REGARDING:message 46: by deleted member
10/19/2008 03:23PM
message 53
It just dawned on me, when we speak of "years" are we speaking of the same thing? Their calendars must have been different, the Greek calendar still is, isn't it? And the Ethiopians, I bet they lived to be l20 because they had different calendars!
message 47: by Oldesq
10/19/2008 05:51PM
739487 Message 56
Yes, the calendar is different but H does refer to the society that was first to divide into 12 and place interstitial dates so the seasons did not move- haven't we read that already in the Histories? or am I thinking of something else I recently delved into?
___________
Ancient peoples, even those in the stone age cultures of prehistory, were very sophisticated concerning calendrics. Solar observations would soon reveal that the year is 365 full days and a bit (1/4) more. Consequently, I do not know of any culture that has a shorter or longer year, so if an Ethiopian claimed to be 120 years old, he/ she would still, most probably, be using the same length year we use today. Where calendars differ is in the day they choose to begin their year. Most start with one or another of the solstice days, but, as in the system used in the U.S. today, a day shortly after the winter solstice, Jan. 1, is used. The modern (and ancient) Greek calendar has the same number of days as the Gregorian/ Julian system, but merely moves some of the high festival days around, especially the Easter celebration.
For the week of October 13th through October 19th, we are reading approximately the next 50 pages of Herodotus - The Histories.
This thread will discuss the following book and sections:
(Book III - Sections 1 - 77)
We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads.
NOTE:
In the Penguin Edition, Book III, section 1 starts on page 170 and goes through section 77 which concludes on page 205.
This thread should only deal with these sections and with Book Three (although previous parts of Herodotus already discussed can be referenced). No spoilers, please.
Discussion on these sections will begin on October 13th.
Welcome,
Bentley
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