Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows
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Do you think Lily would have been proud of Snape?
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Kathy
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Nov 26, 2011 10:23AM
When Snape's spirit hit the between lives vestibule he was met by all the spirits involved with Harry and there was a huge YES and the loved flowed. They'd all succeeded in wht they'd set out to do in their lst between lives!
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Hina wrote: "I don't think Lily would've felt 'proud' of Sev per se. Lily ended up hating Snape for what he did at school, his obsession with the Dark Arts and his friends. Snape didn't like Harry, he hated Har..."I could not have worded that better. That's EXACTLY how I think of it.
Yes and no. He loved her, which she would have been possibly honoured by, and became a Death Eater, which she would probably dissaprove of. Also,he continued to insult her husband and be spiteful towards her son, which she did not feel proud of him for. She probably pitied him, though, and all in all, was quite proud of him towards the end.
Just because two people go down different paths doesn't mean they hate or dislike each other. Lily cared for Snape as well at one point, even if in a different way. Snape devoted a good chunk of his life to protecting her son, with another man no less. Harry would not have survived if not for Snape. Whatever he did in the past I can't see Lily, or any mother for that matter, not being proud of a man like that.
Britnie wrote: "Just because two people go down different paths doesn't mean they hate or dislike each other. Lily cared for Snape as well at one point, even if in a different way. Snape devoted a good chunk of hi..."If anyone should deserve appreciation it's Dumbledore. Snape was prepared to do something really selfish, only wanting to save Lily instead of Harry until he went to Dumbledore who saw selfishness and greed in Snape. Snape only ever acted on Dumbledore's orders no matter what he did or didn't do.
"I have spied for you and lied for you, put myself in mortal danger for you. Everything was supposed to be to keep Lily Potter's son safe. Now you tell me you have been raising him like a pig for slaughter--"Is that the words of a man who only wanted to save Lily? A man who is so selfish he risked everything to protect the son of the women he spend the majority of his life loving? What exactly is that "something selfish" he was prepared to do? He was the one who went to Dumbledore and begged for him to protect the Potters, he is the reason they were placed under the fidelius charm. So where does Dumbledore ever hint that he views Snape as selfish or greedy? I would say it was the opposite in fact. He knew Snape would do anything for Lily, and that included keeping her son safe so to me that seems like Dumbledore saw him as the complete opposite. Why else would he rely on him? Of course Dumbledore deserves appreciation but he could not have done it on his own. He needed help and he trusted Snape enough to put his complete faith in him. He might have followed Dumbledore's order but he was not doing it for Dumbledore, was he? Everything is not black and white or good and evil. Snape was a flawed character but the last thing he should be called is selfish and greedy.
proud of what in regards to Snape? Sacrificing himself at the end in a last ditch effort to right his own fault from the Hog's Head? Probably.Treating Harry like shit for six years, quite definitely not. Not even a little bit. Not at all.
If he'd been able to get out of his bad acquaitances influence and would have acted like a real man since then, he would have earned "pride". But bullying hundreds of helpless students just because he could? Taking special care of her son because he reminded Snape of James and had to suffer for it? Not very pride-ish. But then I'd say there are at least a sister and a headmaster in the afterlife that will also get a certain earful for their role in this play. So Snape wouldn't be the only one getting folded severely
"But this is touching, Severus," said Dumbledore seriously. "Have you grown to care for the boy, after all?""For him?" shouted Snape. "Expecto Patronum!"
From the exact same chapter these words clearly say that Snape did not care for Harry or for James only for Lily.
“If she means so much to you,” said Dumbledore, “surely Lord Voldemort will spare her? Could you not ask for mercy for the mother, in exchange for the son?”
“I have - I have asked him - ”
“You disgust me,” said Dumbledore, and Harry had never heard so much contempt in his voice. Snape seemed to shrink a little, “You do not care, then, about the deaths of her husband and child? They can die, as long as you have what you want?”
This dialogue also shows the 'something selfish' that I mentioned. He was definitely selfish and greedy.
Snape wasn't the reason why the Potter's were placed under the Fidelius charm, as soon as the Potters and Longbottoms were told of the prophecy by Dumbledore they were put under the charm.
It wasn't Snape it was never Snape. Snape was the reason why two families got torn apart, he told Voldemort the prophecy. It was partly his fault that Harry had no parents.
Why did Snape become a Death Eater then if he cared so much about Lily? Why did he call her a 'mudblood'? Why did he ruin all his ties to her if he cared so much? When Lily died he felt guilty and wanted to repent his actions that's it. Yes, that does show good in a person and i very strongly believe that no one can be soley good or bad, but Snape was a horrible, horrible man. Who was undoubtedly very selfish and very greedy.
Did I ever say he was perfect? No. I said he was a complex character. I also never said he was nice. You can't have it both ways...both he and James did horrible things and yet "James was only a kid". They both matured. No Snape didn't like Harry but if he hadn't grown up he would not have gone to the lengths to protect him that he did. He would not have devoted years of his life because he feel guilty. He would not haven GIVEN UP his life because he felt guilty. Especially if he is as selfish as you claim. His patronus matched Lily's after all that time because he LOVED her, not because of his guilt. Honestly. I'm done having this argument, there is really no point. I respect you opinion even if I disagree with it immensely.
I'm not calling him perfect or not a complex character. I disagree, but I'm just agreeing to disagree now. Snape did love Lily yes, and Lily loved Snape, yes. But why did he break her trust and her love. There was every possibility that Lily would not have married James and married Snape instead, but that didn't happen. Snape loved her and that was why he did the things he did out of guilt, because it was partly his fault.
Anyway, agreeing to disagree.
I think Lily never knew who much Snape really loved her, but i think she would be proud. I don't agree with Hina who wrote that " James Potter is a much better person and character". Why? Because he was torturing Snape and other students, because he was arrogant and vain. No. In my opinion James was a bully. Even though he changed when he fell in love with Lily, his torturing is the reason Snape never smiled.
I believe he did care for Harry. And I believe Lily was proud of him, because I am sure she was watching, and saw all that went on. Once Dumbledore was dead, nothing was truely stopping him from offing Harry himself. He didn't have to send the sword to Harry in part 7. Just because a picture suggest you to do it and when to do it doesn't mean you have to do it, nothing was stopping him, no one was standing in his way. No he did it because he cared.
As for him being mean to Harry I believe it was all an act. When he first noticed Harry on the very first day, he couldn't stop staring at him, one he couldn't stop because he was Lily's son but I believe in another way I am sure for the years Harry was with the Dursleys, Snape did alot of thinking about him and over time, that can make you unconsciously care for someone.
Plus he had to play the act because Malfoy would run back and tell his daddy what was going on, and at the moment the Malfoy family was one of Voldermort's great followers.
And Lily I believe she always new there was good in Snape. I mean Snape came from a messed up childhood filled with nothing but darkness, and Lily was his light, but Snape constantly being picked on, eventually lead him to completely give up and go to the dark but when he looked at Lily I am sure he always saw the light, he just couldn't get to it because of who was surrounding her, it was intimidating for him, and once a death sentence was permittly put on her head, he saw him light vanishing and he couldn't have that, so he did what he had to do..
In the end Lily was still his light but Harry is the one who carried the torch, and he did what he had to do to make sure that torch stayed lit, even if that meant being vile torwards Harry.
I'm sure anyone would do the same if you were placed in the same situations.. You gotta do what you gotta do for the ones you care about...I dont' care what anyone says he cared for Harry..Maybe in the beginning he did it for Lily but in the end he did it for Harry..
So yes in the end Lily was proud and thankful for what Snape did.. And I am sure James felt the same way.
Well..... That was a long post. But I agree.
I don't know if she would be proud of him... it's not like she asked him to protect Harry, Dumbledore did. She may be happy that he protected Harry.
Rachel wrote: "I don't know if she would be proud of him... it's not like she asked him to protect Harry, Dumbledore did. She may be happy that he protected Harry."Just because she wasn't the one who asked him doesn't mean she can't be proud of him...She can be proud of him because in the end he did the right thing...
I think she would although he did stupid things. But he was so sweet
Ivana wrote: "I think Lily never knew who much Snape really loved her, but i think she would be proud. I don't agree with Hina who wrote that " James Potter is a much better person and character". Why? Because h..."Okay, that's where you are wrong. James Potter was never the bully, he never tortured anybody. Snape could always fight back, he was never weak or the victim. Snape tortured innocent muggleborns and even invented 'sectumsempra', do you think Snape never used that on James during school?
James was a boy, but he grew up, he matured, Lily married him. Snape didn't.
And where did you get the 'Snape never smiled' bit from? How do you know he was not laughing when he cursed all those muggleborns.
Shelby wrote: "Hina wrote: "Ivana wrote: "I think Lily never knew who much Snape really loved her, but i think she would be proud. I don't agree with Hina who wrote that " James Potter is a much better person and..."Right, this is the definition of a bully: 'a person who uses strength or power to harm or intimidate those who are weaker.'
James Potter DID NOT bully Snape. Snape could always defend himself and could always get back at James. Snape was not weak which was proven by the Dark spells he invented. You can't judge James or Snape based on a chapter which was titled Snape's Worst Memory that might have been biased (Snape's memory).
Snape was never good enough for me. He did do many good things in the end and is a brilliant character, but it is diminished once you see WHY he did those things.
I have to agree with Hina. We mostly see James in a biased way. Not only is the memory Harry sees in Snape's opinion but Lily was friends with Snape first therefore was loyal to him so when we see things her way it looks like James was worse than Snape.
I definitely don't think she would have been proud. He was a creepy man obsessed with the dark arts that took up with a man who was PURE evil. On top of that he was someone that clearly didn't understand the simple saying "no means no".
She should be.. He sacrificed so much.
Shelby wrote: "Hina wrote: "Ivana wrote: "I think Lily never knew who much Snape really loved her, but i think she would be proud. I don't agree with Hina who wrote that " James Potter is a much better person and..."Oh yes, James did hex Snape.
Harry did hex Malfoy how many times on the Hogwarts express or when they had fights in the corridors?
Does that make Harry the bastard who was behind all of this or has maybe Malfoy most of the guilt to carry in these cases?
We see ONE scene where the circumstances point to James initiating this behavior... while even in Snapes memory heÄs truly nasty and ill mannered towards a person who is not only described as his only close friend but whom he claims to see as his only love interest he ever had... and he's spitting a curse word at her for helping him against the "bad bully" who "tortured" him with a prank jinx...
Meanwhile we do have a lot of scenes where the same nasty person is outright despicable towards young impressive innocent and helpless students he was meant to teach. So personawise there's not much doubt he did only become worse over the years whereas we have profound reason to doubt James always and to every body was as horrid as in this one memory to Severus Sebastian Snape.
Snape has done SOME amends at the very end of his life that let him stand as not completelly evil and dark. But if you see Karma as a balance scales thereÄs a lot on the other side of it this few good acts would have to weigh up and even if you only view stuff directly related to Harry James Potter it's by far a negative balance.
NOTHING can make this hateful bullying bastard even remotely sweet. Freddy Krueger doing half a dozen good things to the kid he visits every night in its nightmares will not become a saint, a romantic hero or a cleansed and refined character, he will stay Freddy Krueger who has done a few good things for his very own reasons.
Catia wrote: "How could she not be proud of him!! I mean, she was proud of Harry... he isn't nearly as cool as Snape!!"LOL! yeah...
Guys, I think you must imagine the agony of a guy who has to a) watch the love of his life go out with his arch enemy, b) live with the pain and guilt that he is the one who caused her death and c) try and save the boy who is sooo much like James, but because he is Lily's son!I think this will help you see him in a different light.
I think that Lily would be surprised, shocked, and hurt that Snape had ran to Voldemort when he had heard the prophecy- (noting this is one of the big reasons she died in the first place)- but she also would have been happy that Snape had cared for Harry from then on.The thing is, though, that is Snape had never told Voldemort the prophecy, he wouldn't have had to care for Harry from then on at all, really. It pretty much cancels itself out. It seems only fair that Snape would have to care for Harry.
Though he had done some evil stuff before he switched sides, I think Snape died a relatively good person, and Lily would have forgiven him; it just seems that way.
Dani wrote: "ϟHinaϟ wrote: "Lily ended up hating Snape for what he did at school, his obsession with the Dark Arts and his friends"I don't think Lily hated Snape. I think she was disappointed that he chosen ..."
Disappoointment is what I would expect Lily to feel for Snape too. They were good friends at one point in their lives, so there was that memory of better times. Snape let peer pressure push him to hang around with Death Eaters, which caused him to treat Lily differently. She already knew Snape had been leaning toward those evil people, but when he lashed out at her, his supposed friend (love?), it was the last straw. Disappointment would be my guess. And about Snape protecting Harry. . . she would most likely be grateful, but I don't think she would be too pleased with his methods, especially when it came to how horribly he treated Harry.
I think that Lily would have forgiven Snape, but I think that Snape was a little mean to Harry because he looked exactly like his father. The only part of Harry that Snape likes are his eyes because the eyes are Lily's... That Came Out Wrong!
Hina wrote: "I don't think Lily would've felt 'proud' of Sev per se. Lily ended up hating Snape for what he did at school, his obsession with the Dark Arts and his friends. Snape didn't like Harry, he hated Har..."I think these are all reasons why Lily would be proud of him. He did the right thing when it was extremely difficult for him. His looking after Harry is far more impressive than Dumbledore, Sirius or Lupin looking out for him because they all loved him and Snape did not. His spying on Voldemort was only possible because he was once loyal to him, and was much, much more dangerous because of that as well.
Somebody who takes a wrong turn and has to completely turn their life around like Snape did is more impressive than somebody who's always been on the right path - Simply because it's much more difficult.
I am quite certain that Lily would be proud of Snape.
Cant say if she would have been proud or not but definitely she would have had some amount of satisfaction to see that her old friend has not totally gone over to the dark side.
She would've been proud of him, for turning against his childhood idol, Voldemort, just to do something right in her memory.Lily accused him in their fifth year of wanting to become a Death Eater. Snape had nothing to say to that. He had had a difficult, dark childhood, and that affected him early on. He grew up bullying Muggleborns and writing Dark curses. He did become a Death Eater, but when he heard the prophecy, told Voldemort, and saw his reaction, he changed his life. He begged Dumbledore to help. I think going to Dumbledore was impressive, and agreeing to be a double agent was hard for Snape to do. He'd started early on the Dark path, and he was turning back years later.
The scene when he shows Dumbledore his Patronus does show that his intentions were for Lily, but I think he did grow to care for Harry. Harry might've been James' son, but he was also Lily's.
Lily would've been disappointed by what he did when he was with Voldemort and how he treated her son. However, I think that she would've been proud, too, because someone as smart as her, knowing Severus the way she did, would have understood his intentions and how hard it was for him to do what he did, especially since he didn't like Harry for quite a long time.
Yes. But I think she'd have been upset by the way he treated Harry
Julia wrote: "Somebody who takes a wrong turn and has to completely turn their life around like Snape did is more impressive than somebody who's always been on the right path - Simply because it's much more difficult."You think?
I strongly feel that the one who always suffers through forcing himself to do the right thing regardless how enticing and easy it would be to reach out and hurt another person for "wronging him" is the far superior person and has done the far more courageous effort than the guy failing to stay good and then being driven by guilt to show remorse and make amends.
And Snape does not even DO that. He hazes Harry up to the last breath he takes, has tried to get Sirius murdered after the werewolf/dementor incident in third year and got Remus fired and never showed any sign of remorse or mourning for any loss the "good side" suffered, especially James and Sirius got him outright giddy with their deaths.
That's not a reformed man, that's a sphincter in sheep's clothes.
Judging from his other behavior and attitudes he was certainly happy that giving Harry the memories would force the goodhearted Gryffindor to go into the forest and seek his own death.
And that does not even touch on the question how defective somebody must be in their head if they take up the banner of blood superiority while having a muggle father themselves not to talk about happily learning every tidbit of dark magic (whose only, complete and exclusive definition is "all magic intending only to make others suffer or die")
Snape IS NOT noble. Never has been, never will. He is a sad, pathetic, ill charactered sidenote in the story of real heroes that includes unlikely choices like Colin or Lavender, Cedric and even Percy who far more than Snape fills the lot of "reformed man"... At best he is an necessary evil the "good" had to use in their war effort as they could not refuse the resource as despicable as it might have been.
Not exactly proud.I mean,Snape treated Harry in a very bad and unfair way through his Hogwarts years,he made him furious and suffered a lot because of Snape's behaviour...but that doesn't limit in the least bit his loyalty and faith that showed to Dumbledoor...so Lily would be both disappointed and proud
No. People might think that she would for "protecting" Harry or Snape being on the "good" side, but she would probably be disappointed in him. I mean, come on, he's the entire reason she died. If he didn't go blabbing to Voldy about the prophecy then the Potters wouldn't have died. He only said to Dumbledore to protect James, Harry and Lily only after Dumbledore ratted him out for being so selfish. Some may say that he had to be mean in order to be a spy, but he was being very childish by taking his anger out on Harry for James' actions and for Harry being a reminder that Lily chose James over Snape.So no, she wouldn't.
She would be proud of him for what he did at the end of the book, giving Harry the memories and doing what he could to protect him. She would be surprised at how much he still loved her, but shocked at the cruel ways he treated Harry because of his hatred of James.
I think that she would be pissed of with him, seeing how he abused Harry for (six)/seven years just because of the man she married, just because she chose James, the man who tried to protect the rest of the Potters family. I think she would have still thought of him as a coward in a sense that he never got over anything from the past. But I think she would be thankful that he saved her son in the end.
I think it would be a bit of both pity and pride. Lily saw good in people, loved people and had an incredible amount of forgiveness in her. She might not have approved of all his actions towards Harry, but I think she would have been proud of his dedication to her memory.As for his other actions. Well. Snape was always drawn to the Dark Arts, this is true. But he also thought, whilst he was being manipulated, that it would somehow impress Lily. In his mind if he could show Lily the power of the "dark side" that maybe she would be attracted to and respect him.
He called her a mud blood because of his hurt pride. He was still a teenager and teenage boys aren't exactly rational beings. We've all said something we wish desperately to take back in the heat of the moment. For Snape that is calling Lily a "Mud Blood." I doubt he legitimately meant it. But there was nothing he could do to take it back.
Tim wrote: "Snape constantly abused and humiliated Harry. He may have been working to protect him at the same time, but that behavior wouldn't exactly inspire pride from most mothers."a little he had to xDD in fact he enjoyed it but never hurt him physically ( James did both).
Most important I think she would be happy that he chose the good side in the end and left deatheater, not only protecting Harry ( he didn't have to do so in fact, even if only for Lily, it was sth which also saved her son, when she couldn't protect him herself).
Chloe wrote: "I think that she would be pissed of with him, seeing how he abused Harry for (six)/seven years just because of the man she married, just because she chose James, the man who tried to protect the re..."I agree - Snape's actions gave a net positive result in the end, but his motivations for helping Harry was always due to his obsession with Lily, rather than actual love or care for her son...little bit too weird to give him a full pass I think.
On the other hand, he was definitely a more tortured soul from the beginning, so hard to judge him for what he become.
I'm not sure that Lily's feelings towards what Snape did could be as simple as is she proud of him or not? It's kind of like what J.K. Rowling said about Snape as a person, he's not black and white, he did some really good things, he also did some really crappy things. People as a whole are never so black and white. Just look at history, there are people we revere as heroes who did some terrible things along side the great things, and people we hate who also at one time did some good things. I think Lily would be proud that he abandoned the evil side, and I think she would be proud that he contributed such a huge part to Voldemort's downfall. But she would obviously be disappointed with the abuse of his students including her own son, and the disrespect she showed her dead husband (also in front of her son) even if James was a jerk. I think Lily, like any other average human being, would be proud of the things he did right and ashamed of what he did wrong.
For sure! He held his secret the entire series!
Absolutely not. He not only bullied her son, but he bullied nearly every kid that wasn't in slitherin. Neville's worst fear was snape! His parents were tortured to insanity by death eaters because of voldemort! Yet his teacher was his worst fear. i refuse to over look that point and i refuse to think that lily would be "proud" of the way snape treated those kids.
I KNOW that Lily would be proud of Snape. Especially when we find out that he has been playing double sides for YEARS!!! Always trying to make up for his mistakes. And how he helped her son!! Even though Harry was a living reminder of what he had lost, and who he had lost. He literally gave his life for Harry. I know that if Sanpe hadn't chosen the dark arts she would have chosen him. Love like that doesn't go away.
Okay first of all I think both Snape and James were jerks. I'm a bit disappointed in Lily. That being said I think she would be grateful that Snape helped keep her son alive. However I don't think she would be able to forgive him for the fact that he bullied and tortured Harry every chance he got. It is partly Snapes fault that Lily died and it seems to me that he is projecting his hatred of himself for his own failures onto Harry and all the other students. Lily would never have stood for that.
I don't think that the people who say no understand Snape or his life at all. He had to see harry(nothing against harry but he was the embodiment of snapes failure) everyday while trying to protect him. He loved harry too as when he dies he smiles at harry, the symbol if his loss, and tells him he has his mothers eyes. He played a double agent for years. Lily is a fool if she isn't proud or forgives him. Harry would've died if it wasn't for snape.
No, she would not have been proud of Snape. He tormented her son repeatedly throughout his school years because of an old grudge he couldn't let go of. The only kindness he ever meaningfully gave to Harry was explaining the final explanation on how to kill Voldemort. Why would Lily be proud of the man who constantly found ways to express his utmost hate for her son?
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