Robert E. Howard Readers discussion
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REH: His Life & Times
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Howard Commits Suicide - Why?
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I'm not a fan of psychoanalysing Howard since it's generally pretty impossible to do these things when someone is alive, letalone dead, so as o his fixation with his mother, that sounds very speculative. Suicide by a 30 year old is pretty indicative of mental illness though ......the OP seems to be suggesting that mental illness is some kind of terrible stigma to brand REH with.
Quite a few artsy folks have been mentally ill & some think that's one of the things that gives them some special insights into the world. Howard's mom died, his suicide note supposedly read:All fled, all done, so lift me on the pyre;
The feast is over and the lamps expire.
and he shot himself. That's not exactly a picture of mental health.
That's not a condemnation. Mental disease should be viewed on par with physical ones, especially since many do stem from physical issues - hormone imbalances & such. Even if they don't, it's not as if it's a condition over which the poor guy had much control. Anyway, I'm not putting Howard down for being mentally ill, just curious as to how anyone could think he wasn't. IMO, his actions only make sense if he was. Parents die & it sucks, but so it goes. If that was normal behavior, we'd have died out as a species ages ago.
Sorry, I meant the OP Michael, not you Jim. I'm in complete agreement with what you're saying. I'm not sure though that mental illness provides a "special insight", I'm aware that mental illnesses can create strong drives in people, to achieve, to create, to become perfectionists and so on and I think also the heightened emotions that some people feel can be a strong spark to creativity.There are lots of great authors that people have believed were mentally ill and in a lot of cases it seems like a fairly reasonable supposition. I don't think its derogatory in the slightest, though I do feel incredibly sad when I realise it means that they may have been unhappy and cases like this where it meant they ended thei life prematurely.
I haven't read any of Howard's Bios (probably never will, I don't really enjoy biographies much) so i'm not trying to defend de Camp at all, although I disagree with some of the suppositions in the other thread that de Camp was probably "only in it for the money"He was a respected fantasy author in his own right and it seems reasonable to think that he enjoyed Howard's work. If he profited out of that too, then good for him, I'm sure we'd all take that opportunity to make money from something that we love.
Alex, #5 should probably be in the other topic, don't you think?
Firstly, I don't think that mental illness is something that should be stigmatised; in fact, the exact opposite.All I know of REH's life is intros to books, wikipedia, the biopic and what I've learned from these discussions (hmm, that might actually be quite a lot!) - I haven't read any biographies nor his medical records. For all I know he could have suffered from mental illness. However, the single fact of his suicide is not (to me) a definitive diagnostic indicator.
People's ability to cope with emotional stress varies. If Howard's emotional pain exceeded what he was able to deal with, that doesn't mean he was mentally ill. Guess it's definitions again, Jim!
Re Alex's #5 (I seem to be interpreting other's posts lately - I promise not to make it a habit),I think that in the discussion re de Camp's editorship there was a suggestion that he might have over-played the mental health issue to justify the changes he made to Howard's work. Alex, was it to this that you were alluding?
I guess it is definitions, Michael. Perhaps 'momentary' insanity? Unfortunately, his type wasn't temporary. He was literally "gravely ill". I've read the same sort of stuff you have, so I don't know either. I just know it sucks. I see people that are gravely ill like that too frequently. I'm an alcoholic & have been dealing with myself & others for decades. My father drank himself to death when he wasn't much older than Howard. Some of us have beat the odds & survive - a daily reprieve - but too many die one way or another. I've heard 1 in 10 makes it, but the statistics are guesses, IMO. What a waste & shame.
It definitely sucks, Jim.I'm sorry to hear about your father. I've lost a couple of relatives to alcoholism, so I know how painful that can be. I've also got a sister who's alcoholic and who hasn't had drink in over 15 years: I'm so proud of her.
My attitudes to suicide are heavily influenced by the voluntary work I do for a charity that offers emotional support to those in distress and despair and who may be experiencing suicidal thoughts and feelings. I'm not a mental health professional, but I've spoken to hundreds of people dealing with suicidal thoughts, some of whom were suffering mental illness, but most of whom were just being pushed towards, or past, their coping threshold.
So was REH mentally ill? I don't have enough information to give an informed opinion. Hopefully somebody more widely read will give us the benefit of their insight.
I'm not an expert on mental health by any stretch but I had a friend I knew since we were about 6-7 years old who killed himself when he was about 20 years old. The reason was because of a breakup with a girlfriend. Does that mean he was mentally ill? Perhaps if you call the depression he suffered as result. There really isn't enough room here to discuss in detail but I believe that Howard would have loved to get away (if you don't want to read the bios that's fine but understand there is more than one side to this and that DeCamp's bios are not the definitive last word on Howard) but felt a deep responsibility for his mother as she was very ill with TB. His father was a country doctor and was often away from home. Back then doctors visited many of their patients and took livestock, etc in trade for their services. Bob Howard felt the responsibility not to just care for his mother but to help support his family as well (including medical treatments for his mother). I've read a couple of desperate letters by Howard to editors asking for money that was owed to him after his stories were published. I feel that over a long period of time especially toward the end of his mother's life he felt totally exhausted and that that was a contributing factor to his depression.
I'm sure both my friend and Howard may have benefited from counseling but we will never know. I know I have experienced this myself (although not over the loss of a loved one) and never had counseling but was very involved in my church at the time which helped me cope. I would not say I was mentally ill. Whether you feel he was or wasn't my point is if there are other bios and information out there by REH Scholars who have done exhaustive research and there are other ways to look at this than the one perpetuated by L Sprague DeCamp for 20-30 years.
BTW I respect DeCamp his writing ability. He certainly was a respected author in his own right. He was even elected a "Grandmaster of Science Fiction". In his bios of Howard I don't believe he ever gave Howard his due as a writer. He praised him as a creator of great action yarns with the ability of a natural storyteller but in the next breath was very dismissive of his writing ability. If you take the original Lancer/Ace Conan Saga (12 books) I think you will find that most of the writing was done by DeCamp, Lin Carter, and of course Bjorn Nyberg (Conan the Avenger)and does not represent the real Howard. There are others who have done this research and it is readily available on line or in print for those interested. He also blocked efforts by others to publish the original Conan stories by Howard. I call that hijacking and while I agree he enjoyed the stories I believe he saw a way to profit. He has many detractors in Howard Fandom as a result. And not to take a cheap shot but I checked Amazon.com and found that DeCamp's writings have faded away since his death. The only recent book published was in 2010 and it was a collaboration with L Ron Hubbard. On the other hand Howard is experiencing a surge like never before and it's based on his his own words and not someone's edited versions! If I sound passionate about this... it's because I am LOL
For those interested you may want to check out the 16 part series about L Sprague DeCamp published on the REHUPA (Robert E Howard United Press Association) website. This was a fanzine started in 1972 that is still going strong. The series written by Morgan Holmes, a widely respected Howard Scholar. This will give you an idea of the polarizing effect that DeCamp had on Howard Fandom. BTW he is also in the medical field (Morgan Holmes).
http://www.rehupa.com/?cat=19&pag...
In one bio of Howard, De Camp called him "maladjusted to the point of neurosis." Accordingly De Camp did the same thing with bios of Lovecraft. Below is just a small excerpt from Morgan Holmes:"L. Sprague de Camp was an engineer by education, not a psychologist, not a psychiatrist. The big question is why did he engage continuously in dressing up his writing with faux psychology? Some have attributed sinister motives. Examing de Camp’s writings on other authors, there is a pattern. If the writer was alive, you got a pass. If you were dead, the psychoanalysis would creep in. The more de Camp wrote on a subject, the more psychoanalysis. He engaged in it with the Lovecraft biography. S. T. Joshi wrote in his H.P. Lovecraft: A Life (Necronomicon Press, 1996: “Whenever de Camp encounters some facet of Lovecraft’s personality that he cannot understand or does not share, he immediately undertakes a kind of half-baked posthumous psychoanalysis. Hence refers to Lovecraft’s sensitivity to place as ‘topomania’–as if no one could be attached to the physical tokens of his birthplace without being considered neurotic…He was out of his depth: and this makes his schoolmasterly chiding of Lovecraft all the more galling…these value judgements were arrived at through inadequate understanding and false perspective.” You could take out Lovecraft’s name in that passage and insert Howard’s and be correct."
And as Mr Holmes points out...Even if a medical professional had made such remarks about someone without actually visiting with the patient you could be sued. Unfortunately, these conclusions that De Camp drew have been perpetuated for many years.
Homes also writes:
"Interestingly, Karl Edward Wagner was a Medical Doctor who did his residency in psychiatry.
If anyone could have waded into this area, it was him. His forewords and afterwords for the Berkley Conan books have not a word of psycho-babble".
And one final word about this. (My sister recently went though this but fortunately we put our mother who suffers from dementia in a home recently as my own sister's health was failing as a result of being our mother's caretaker).
From Holmes: "In going over his writings on Robert E. Howard the person, de Camp does not come off as a person capable of much sympathy for others. I deal all the time with family members who are caretakers of failing elderly parents. I have seen the exhaustion and frustration in dealing with a situation that is only going to get worse. Often caretakers have depression after the death of the parent. All that work ultimately does not alter the final outcome, it just makes the passing easier. Robert E. Howard was a caretaker. Whereas L. Sprague de Camp sees an Oedipus complex and being tied to his mother’s apron strings, I see somebody with a sense of responsibility to take care of a chronically ill parent while at the same time working to bring in money to support the family. That is a hard thing to keep up for years. I have seen it wreck the health of people. It probably never entered de Camp’s mind to talk to people who work in hospice to get an idea of dealing with terminal illness. He was more interested in psychological spot comments to back up his judgments. There is a consistency in print by de Camp from 1953-1983. It was once said of the Bourbons of France that they forgot nothing and refused to learn anything, the situation is similar here."
Michael wrote: Homes also writes:"Interestingly, Karl Edward Wagner was a Medical Doctor who did his residency in psychiatry.
If anyone could have waded into this area, it was him. His forewords and afterwords for the Berkley Conan books have not a word of psycho-babble".
That says a lot. As a trained psychiatrist -- though not a practicing one -- and a writer, KEW could have easily hypothesized about REH's suicide and chose not to. Once again, hard to know the 'why' of it when both Wagner and Howard are dead.
I haven't studied REH's personal life at length, just gleaned info from Internet boards and the movie Whole Wide World. The nearest thing to an absolute is what we all know; the death (or imminent death) of REH's mother was the final determining factor in REH's choice to end his life, and the rest is just conjecture.
I'm inclined to think REH had depression or was a bit manic / depressive. Conan was prone to brooding, then could shrug it off for adventure. Perhaps writing was REH's adventure, and when his greatest supporter was on the verge of death, he may have felt there was no reason to keep pressing on. It can be a daily fight, much like the alcoholism cited earlier in this thread. Some succumb quickly when an event happens, some get worn down over time, some fight it off altogether.
As for de Camp and others, including Moorcock, taking swipes at the man who laid it down first and in my opinion, best, well, I've often been baffled over criticism. It's one thing to say a work could have been edited better, another to say so-and-so wasn't a powerful writer. The latter group, including de Camp and Moorcock when it comes to REH, seem to be compensating for shortcomings, imo.
Sort of an interesting side note, KEW drank himself to death. That was another great loss.One thing I noticed about the different accounts of REH's suicide, in some the note was in the typewriter, others have it in his wallet. It doesn't really matter to me - it means little either way - but it does say something about the accuracy of the accounts & opinions. Nothing good.
Pertaining to the couplet you mention:In my opinion, today's pre-eminent scholar (after Glenn Lord) on the subject of REH is Rusty Burke and here is the results of the research he did on the couplet. It was published in REHUPA.
BTW Rusty mentions in this that the verse was found in the typewriter......
http://www.rehupa.com/?page_id=16
I copied and pasted it below:
All fled, All Done
by Rusty Burke
How long have we all accepted that Howard’s self-written epitaph
All fled, all done, so lift me on the pyre;
The feast is over and the lamps expire.
was paraphrased from Ernest Dowson’s “Non sum qualis eram bonae sub regno Cynarae” (or “Cynara”), the last stanza of which reads:
I cried for madder music and for stronger wine,
But when the feast is finished and the lamps expire,
Then falls thy shadow, Cynara! the night is thine;
And I am desolate and sick of an old passion,
Yea, hungry for the lips of my desire:
I have been faithful to thee, Cynara! in my fashion.”
At least since 1966, when Sprague de Camp wrote in “Memories of R.E.H.” (Amra #38):
The second line of the farewell couplet seems to be a paraphrase of a line in the fourth and last stanza of the well-known poem, “Non Sum Qualis Eram Bonae Sub Regno Cynarae,” by Ernest Christopher Dowson (1867-1900)….
Dowson, a minor Victorian poet who died young of tuberculosis and alcoholism, also wrote a number of poems full of the studied melancholy and self-conscious thanatophilia that sometimes occurs in Howard’s verse.
By The Miscast Barbarian (published by Gerry de la Ree, 1975), in that disarming way Mr. de Camp has of turning speculation into statements of fact, this became, “The second line of this couplet is paraphrased from a poem by Ernest Christopher Dowson….” Steve Eng picked this up in his excellent study, “The Poetry of Robert E. Howard” (in The Dark Barbarian, Greenwood Press, 1984): after noting that Howard’s friend Harold Preece had written that Bob “would have thought little of a weakling like Ernest Dowson” (in a letter to Glenn Lord published in The Howard Collector), Eng says, “There are other uncanny Dowson parallels in his life, as well as Dowson echoes in his poetry, culminating in the suicide note found in Howard’s typewriter: a scrap of paraphrase from Dowson’s ‘Cynara’….”
It never has occurred to me to quibble with this. Although, unlike Eng, I found no particular affinities between Howard’s poetry and Dowson’s more languorous verse, there was no mistaking that line, “…the feast is finished and the lamps expire.”
Well, hold on.
Engaged in literary detective work, I have been scanning a number of poetry collections for scraps that Howard had quoted. In a little book called Songs of Adventure, edited by Robert Frothingham (Houghton Mifflin, 1926), I stumbled by chance upon a poem by Benjamin De Casseres (“The Closed Room”) which Howard used some lines from in “The Door to the World” (published in Fantasy Crosswinds as “The Door to the Garden”). Then, scanning over the contents, I found that the collection included Bill Adams’ “Flower of the Morning,” which Howard had used in memorializing his friend Herbert Klatt, although this anthology presented it under the title “Light of the Morning.” So I’m paging through the book wondering if maybe I might stumble upon the sources of a couple of other little scraps of poetry which Howard had quoted but not identified. And I ran across this, on pages 154-155:
THE HOUSE OF CÆSAR
Yea — we have thought of royal robes and red.
Had purple dreams of words we utterèd;
Have lived once more the moment in the brain
That stirred the multitude to shout again.
All done, all fled, and now we faint and tire –
The Feast is over and the lamps expire!
Yea — we have launched a ship on sapphire seas,
And felt the steed between the gripping knees;
Have breathed the evening when the huntsman brought
The stiffening trophy of the fevered sport –
Have crouched by rivers in the grassy meads
To watch for fish that dart amongst the weeds.
All well, all good — so hale from sun and mire –
The Feast is over and the lamps expire!
Yet — we have thought of Love as men may think,
Who drain a cup because they needs must drink;
Have brought a jewel from beyond the seas
To star a crown of blue anemones.
All fled, all done — a Cæsar’s brief desire –
The Feast is over and the lamps expire!
Yea — and what is there that we have not done,
The Gods provided us ‘twixt sun and sun?
Have we not watched an hundred legions thinned,
And crushed and conquered, succorèd and sinned?
Lo — we who moved the lofty gods to ire –
The Feast is over and the lamps expire!
Yea — and what voice shall reach us and shall give
Our earthly self a moment more to live?
What arm shall fold us and shall come between
Our failing body and the grasses green?
And the last heart that beats beneath this head –
Shall it be heard or unrememberèd?
All dim, all pale — so lift me on the pyre –
The Feast is over and the lamps expire!
– Viola Garvin
Need I add anything? Seems to me there is no question that this is the source of those lines. If the repeated refrain weren’t enough, the occurrence of the phrases “all fled, all done” and “so lift me on the pyre” would seem to clinch it.
We had some discussion of this on the REH-fans list, with it being noted that, the tone of this poem differing from that of Dowson’s, it puts a new slant on Howard’s mood at the time of his suicide.
And again, here is another excerpt from a Brief Bio of Robert E Howard by Rusty Burke that raised the question of Howard's mental health:"It is a regrettable postscript that Robert E. Howard’s suicide has tended to color interpretations of his mental health. While it is hard to maintain that killing oneself at the age of 30 is ‘normal’ behavior, suicide is often a very complex response to real or perceived problems. There are many reasons people take their own lives, and not all of them are rooted in grief, despair or depression. It is doubly unfortunate, in Howard’s case, that his action coincided with his mother’s death, which has led to the inevitable, but in my view simplistic notion that he killed himself out of despondency. This has, in turn, led to the supposition — without any compelling evidence — that he was ‘unnaturally’ close to or dependent upon his mother. It may well be that, had he not been needed to care for his mother, Robert would have taken his life even earlier. Or it may be that, had there been a friend with him to see him through the crisis, Robert would have carried on after her death. We can never really know. To link his suicide solely with his mother’s death, though, is to ignore a host of other contributing factors.
Opinions on Howard’s state of mind vary wildly, from ‘psychotic’ and ‘Oedipal’ to suggestions that he was a pretty normal guy who succumbed to stress. By his own testimony in letters, as well as the statements of his friends, we know he was certainly subject to dark moods. On the other hand, the memoirs of those who knew him best — Tevis Clyde Smith, Novalyne Price (Ellis) and Harold Preece — show they thought the world of him, and on balance he was an intelligent and affable companion. If he was occasionally eccentric in his dress or actions, it may have been as Novalyne Price told her roommate: “He’s trying to tell people he’s a writer and writers have a right to be odd. Since they think he’s crazy, anyway, he’ll show them just how crazy he can be.” This attitude is indeed reflected in some of Howard’s letters to Smith and Preece. It is interesting to note that most of the speculation about Howard’s mental health has come from people with minimal or no qualifications in this area. One person who is qualified, Charles Gramlich, a professor of psychology and fantasy author, wrote: “No matter how much some folks seem to want to think Howard was crazy, it just ain’t so. Call him eccentric and I’ll go along with that. Call him crazy in the way that some of us call ourselves crazy, and I’ll buy that. But he was not clinically disturbed… In my opinion, Howard was no crazier than the rest of us. He was just a better writer.”
Michael, thanks for those insights - really very, very interesting.I've just finished the version of "The Black Stranger" in The Complete Chronicles of Conan: Centenary Edition and there was a passage about Belesa's reaction (view spoiler); it's on page 776 of that edition:
In the blackness of spirit which surrounded her she saw no glint of light...[Tina:]"Let us go far away into the forest. We shall go until we can go no further, and then we shall lie down and die together."
The tragic strength that is the last refuge of the weak entered into Belesa's soul. It was the only escape from the shadows that had been closing in upon her since the day when they fled from Zingara.
"We shall go, child."
Now, those are the thoughts of one of Howard's characters and not necessarily his own, but it sheds some light upon his understanding of a person pushed to the limit of their ability to cope with their situation. I don't think that there's any suggestion in the story that Belesa is mentally ill.
Michael wrote: "Pertaining to the couplet you mention:In my opinion, today's pre-eminent scholar (after Glenn Lord) on the subject of REH is Rusty Burke and here is the results of the research he did on the coupl..."
I read that article since it is mentioned & has a link in the suicide note on Wikisource.org
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Robert_...
I didn't know Burke's credentials, but he does make an excellent case for the poem, much better than deCamp's.
Just so you know.....Rusty Burke is as mentioned THE REH Scholar that most fans and scholars defer to as the one who knows more about Howard than anyone else living (except for Glenn Lord). Rusty has been part of REHUPA for years and has researched Howard for such publishers as Necronomicon Press and has edited and chosen most of the stories for the Del Rey Editions. He is the one who edited Howard's letters for Robert E Howard Foundation books and is actually the president of Robert E Howard Foundation. He gives tours of Cross Plains every year during REH Days, sits on the panels and introduces the guest speakers at the banquets. I would say that outside of Glenn Lord and probably Bill "Indie" Cavalier (who edits REHUPA), he is the most respected Howard scholar and has been awarded the Cimmerian Award called the Black Circle Award. He was the second of only the 3 people mentioned above to ever to achieve this honor over the years. These awards are chosen for their scholarly research of Howard and their contributions to his legacy. As of the last two years, the Cimmerian Award has been voted by members of the Robert E Howard Foundation and given out at the banquet in Cross Plains. Prior to that they were chosen by subscribers and fans of The Cimmerian a fanzine that is now defunct in 2010 but can still be accessed on the web for now. BTW Rusty is an extremely nice, very affable and humble gentleman and if it wasn't for people like Glenn, Rusty and Bill Cavalier we would probably not be getting the "unedited" surge of Robert E Howard books, etc being published today. I told him so when I met him a few years ago in Cross Plains as I have been aware of his contributions since the early 80's and knew what he has done. Trust me these guys aren't doing it for the money. It's a labor of love....
http://www.thecimmerian.com/
The Cimmerian Fanzine was run by Leo Grin for many years who purchased a copy of the Herbert Jenkins 1937 edition of "A Gent from Bear Creek" for about $3000 on ebay and donated it to the Robert E Howard Museum where it is on display.
Why R.E.H. killed himself is an interesting and complex question. In my own opinion, I don't think Howard suffered from neurosis or any other mental disorder; when one reads his personal letters this becomes fairly-well evident. True, he may have sunken into one of his dark Gaelic moods and waxed depressed every now and then, but I don't think he was mentally unstable at all. No, I believe R.E.H.'s motivation for taking his own life was primarily due to the loss of love and heartbreak. It must be remembered that a mere month before he killed himself after hearing that his mother was going to die, Howard's "on-and-off" girlfriend, Novalyne Price, moved away to Louisiana.Let's face it, women drive men to a higher plane of creative effort. There is nothing new in this. The emotion of love brings out and develops the artistic nature of man, and he may attain to great heights of achievement solely by the driving force of love, sex, and romance. Moreover, love is an emotion which insures balance, poise, and constructive effort. By losing both his girlfriend and mother, however, R.E.H. was deprived of the only intimacy and tender feminine attachments he ever knew. To be sure, a man who can no longer be stimulated to higher realms of accomplishment by love is hopeless - he is dead, though he may seem to live. I think Howard's must have thought this the day he put a bullet in his head.
Love is, without question, life's greatest experience. Devotion, adoration, romance, the warm caresses of a woman, these things may lead one far up the ladder of creative effort, of achievement-building genius. When R.E.H. lost his probably first and only girlfriend, then his mother, I believe he lost his will to write and live. These two women, but especially his mother, were the fires that fueled Howard's being. When they left him, his lamp did indeed expire. The real question then is not 'why' Howard killed himself, but 'why' couldn't he overcome his "loved lost."
You bring up a good point. I've read "One who Walked Alone" a couple of times by Novalyne Price and of course saw the movie "Whole Wide World" several times. I have been reading Howard's "Collected Letters" and came across a letter from July 1935 which I read before but was reminded that Novalyne was actually dating one of Howard's best friends for a while. Howard wrote her a letter about this because both she and his friend did not let him know. He felt humiliated and very bitter. He was also having trouble collecting money from Farnsworth Wright the editor of "Weird Tales" for stories that had been published months before. It was the policy to pay upon publication but Weird Tales was having financial troubles. All of these things I believe added to the pressure he felt. One letter describes a month long stay in Temple, TX where his mother was treate at a hospital. On the way back his car broke down around Lampasas and Copperas Cove, TX (near Fort Hood today). He and his father made of bed of blankets for his mother for the return trip and the car broke down! They had to get the car repaired and spent the night in a hotel. I can just imagine the stress! I know that area of Texas and there isn't much there now! I can only imagine what is was like then!
De Camp was a hack. I don't say this from spite about what he said about Howard or Lovecraft, simply because he was trite, dull and made me loathe Conan when I bought one of his paperbacks as a kid. I have no clue as to what he did or didn't say about Howard other than what I've read in this thread and would rather repeat 6th grade into perpetuity than pay for anything he wrote ever again.
Now, I'm not sure what Moorcock said, either. However, him I respect both as a person and a writer. I have actually spoken to Mr. Moorcock about REH. I had been under the mistaken impression that he hadn't cared for Howard's writing much due to a badly edited internet article. He told me to the contrary, that REH was one of the very reasons he'd relocated to Texas.
I do believe REH was mentally ill, and have a very specific idea what illness it might have been. However, until they change my grad degree to one in the medical field, I'll just keep that opinion to myself. His dog had just died, the doctors told him his mother was dying. Apparently, he'd been having some strange thoughts about his 'particular physiognomy'. He affected strange mannerisms on and off throughout his life. Sheesh, sounds like I'm deriding the poor guy....that's not my intention. I just think he was a powder-keg waiting to blow. I'm reminded of Silverman's 'Edgar A. Poe' in a sad way.
I think calling anyone who won the SF Grand Master award a 'hack' is going a bit too far. You might not have liked his style, but he was hardly a hack. It was his threading together of the Conan stories that helped make them so popular, IMO.
We will have to agree to disagree, good sir. I respect your opinion, but I just didn't like his books. He probably wouldn't have liked mine, either.If I had one.
Michael wrote: "You bring up a good point. I've read "One who Walked Alone" a couple of times by Novalyne Price and of course saw the movie "Whole Wide World" several times...."Aug 2012
Hi guys,
I'm just now sitting down to read these discussions from a year ago. There's a lot packed into the stuff you all have written, and a lot of it is very good and extremely thoughtful (let's face it - only a true Howardite would even consider wading through all this!). The topics presented here are very difficult to grapple with, which is why I didn't follow this one a year ago.
Michael- I quoted your passage above because I've just started reading N. Price's book and I like it very much. Parts are very hard to face, as she seems to write so honestly and so lucidly. I feel great sympathy and frustration at her descriptions of REH.
I was wondering what your thoughts might be regarding Finn's book 'Blood & Thunder.' I have not read the works of the scholar you mentioned, Rusty Burke, but nonetheless I'd be curious to know your thoughts on Howard's life - and death - in light of the information as presented by Finn. Are your views comparable?
I don't know - maybe Finn's own view is/seems slanted? (I have no basis to judge at this point.)
Thanks again for the great posts everyone,
P-12
Peregrine 12,I'm going to toss my hat into the arena here and answer your question about Mark Finn's biography—Blood & Thunder—which, by the way has been fully updated and revised by Finn. You can get a copy at the REH Foundation website. Finn's approach to Howard's death is two-fold. First, Finn attempts to clear up all the previous rumors, hyperbole, and faulty facts surrounding Howard's death. Two, Finn then explains Howard's death in light of those who were present, and by a practical guideline of what really happened without all the hype. In other words, get the facts correct approach and tell it like it happened. I recommend Finn's book, it's the best biography written to date. Cheers!
TBV
[http://onanunderwood5.blogspot.com/]
Thanks for the comment. I have read Finn's book (sorry - I wasn't really clear about that in my first post), and I thought it was exceptionally well done. I was just wondering how it compared & contrasted to Burke, or any other Howard scholar for that matter. (Well, anyone besides DeCamp - I think I've read enough about him to know he had an axe to grind, and that's enough for me.)
Have you read Burke's book?
p-12
Yes, I've read Burke's "book." It's more of a pamphlet than a book (at about 32 pages). Blood & Thunder is much more detailed. You can meet both Mark Finn and Rusty Burke at the REH Days in Cross Plains, TX. They attend every year, the second weekend in June. They are always more than happy to discuss REH's life and work.As for de Camp, I pretty much agree, he sensationalized everything in his biography, not to mention the amateur and faulty psychoanalysis he performed throughout.
Thanks for the tip on REH Days. I haven't been able to attend the past 2 years, but I am looking forward to the chance to go in 2013. Meeting the guys who wrote these books would be really great.Regarding DeCamp: I grew up reading the 12-volume Conan series, much of it written by DeCamp, and loved it all. But every book had the same intro about Howard, the one that cast him in such a negative light and never seemed to mention any of Howard's other works.
Despite that, as a kid I always wondered where Cross Plains was and used to daydream about going there and seeing REH's house. Now, 30 years later, it's a historical monument with its own fan club! Who knew...
I read those same de Camp edition Conan books, the Ace versions anyway. I'm not too fond of de Camp, but I do owe my intro of REH to him. Even though I knew about the REH days back in 2002, I was never able to attend until last year. I'll be going every year from here on out. I grew up just down the road from Cross Plains, in Abilene, TX, so my first trip to the Howard home was back in the early 80s (around '83). Someone was actually living in the house at the time.If you are able to attend next year's REH Days, let me know. I'll be there and I always like meeting new Howard Heads.
Alright, I will let you know. Until then, I'll see you around the goodreads board!'Howard Heads'? Indeed.
Peregrine 12 wrote: "Michael wrote: "You bring up a good point. I've read "One who Walked Alone" a couple of times by Novalyne Price and of course saw the movie "Whole Wide World" several times...."Aug 2012
Hi guys,..."
To answer about "Blood and Thunder"...I absolutely loved the book. I bought the revised version recently but haven't read it yet.
The longest bio of REH I read previously was "Dark Valley Destiny" by DeCamp. I found it a bit depressing. I met and purchased Blood and Thunder at a REH Days a few years ago and met Mark Finn. He signed it for me and I talked with him a while. He did not come out and knock DeCamp's book at the time but presented his book as an alternative. After reading it I completely understood. It was a celebration of Howard's life. Extremely well researched with lots of historical data. It made me feel as though I were there. I've lived in TX for about 30 years now (in the DFW area) and have made several trips to West Texas. It is much easier to understand REH from the historical perspective. DeCamp's version of Howard is somewhat dark and burdened with lots of psychobabble. Thank God for Finn's wonderful definitive bio!
Michael wrote: "Peregrine 12 wrote: "Michael wrote: "You bring up a good point. I've read "One who Walked Alone" a couple of times by Novalyne Price and of course saw the movie "Whole Wide World" several times......."Also, Rusty Burke, as author, has not written any books but a short bio of REH which TBV mentions. He has written many essays for REHUPA, Necronomicon Press, etc for many years. He has acted as editor on many of the Del Rey books of Howard's works. I wouldn't classify him so much as author but REH Scholar.
I just wanted to thank all the posters in this discussion group. Though I had studied the matter of Howard's suicide peripherally, I was very surprised to discover the wealth of knowledge and passion about the topic by the members here and I found myself fingertapping down the dark pathways of this mystery through your many links and suggestions.
Robert E. Howard is my favorite author, but no necessarily because of his writing -which I love- but I always felt like I "got" what he trying to say between the lines and that I can relate. So I constantly find myself wondering about what brought him to commit suicide and its so sad that he didn't live to see how popular and influential his stories would become.It seems to me like Howard may have been bi-polar. Not that I know much about that condition. What are your thoughts on that?
While at Robert E Howard Days last weekend, there was a panel about Robert E Howard's life which was hosted by REH scholars who know a lot more about his life than I do. Mark Finn, author of the REH Bio "Blood and Thunder", Chris Gruber, Paul Herman, Rusty Burke, and others joined in to discuss his life, mostly from the three volume "letters" which is available from the Robert E Howard Foundation. http://www.rehfoundation.org/It has been often thought that Howard spent a lot of time taking care of his mother for several years during her illness but in contrast if you read the letters, Howard did an enormous amount of traveling around Texas and nearby States. He was not "trapped" at home as many believe (and popularized by the bios of L Sprague DeCamp. like "Dark Valley Destiny"). The feeling of responsibility came mostly in the last few months of her life when he stayed closer to home to care for her. Paul Herman mentioned a book named "NeuroTribes:The Legacy of Autism and the future of Neurodiversity" by Steve Silberman. It is billed as "A groundbreaking book that upends conventional thinking about autism and suggests a broader model for acceptance, understanding, and full participation in society for people who think differently." The book is available on Amazon. Paul seemed to believe that this study may have come closest to understanding what may have been going on with Howard. Many of his friends said that Howard talked about suicide but thought nothing of it. His father Dr Isaac Howard was afraid Howard wanted to kill himself. Dr Howard was even handing all the guns out the window to friends to hide so they would not be around. Bob Howard actually borrowed the gun from a friend that he killed himself with. The decision was apparently made after he knew his mother was going to die so he did not feel a responsibility for her any longer. It was mentioned that Howard most likely looked at suicide as being a "glorious" way to go and had planned it for some time but did not want to "leave" until his mother no longer needed him. To have an understanding I would recommend the 3 volumes of letters of Robert E Howard. I believe volume 1 is sold out but Volumes 2 and 3 are still available. Also it should be mentioned that Howard was incredibly intelligent. Almost a savant in many ways. It was said that he memorized "Rime of the Ancient Mariner" after only two readings. He was an extremely prolific writer. He wrote several hundred stories and poems, more than most authors write in a long lifetime he accomplished in about 10-12 years. Anyway, I don't suggest I am a scholar who understands all this, just a fan. I am merely presenting some info that was expressed by those who have studied his life in more detail than I. Many of these scholars are on Goodreads. I also recommend joining the REH Foundation and if you are on FB there are several FB pages about Howard and his writings. Finally I recommend going to REH Days sometime.
Michael wrote: "Michael wrote: "Peregrine 12 wrote: "Michael wrote: "You bring up a good point. I've read "One who Walked Alone" a couple of times by Novalyne Price and of course saw the movie "Whole Wide World" s..."At REH Days this year, Mark Finn mentioned on a few occasions that Rusty is writing a full length biography as well.
Michael wrote: "At the risk of going off topic, there are many reasons why a person may take their own life and mental illness is only one. Suicide is not diagnostic of mental illness. Back to the lively discussion re editing!
If we want to have a discussion about REH's mental health, please start a new thread. "
OK, I'll bite. His mother died & he shot himself. He was, as far as I know, a healthy 30 year old man. What other reason besides mental illness did he have for committing suicide?