Reading the Chunksters discussion
Archived 2011 Group Reads
>
Mists of Avalon 2: 60-97 (Chapters 5-7)
date
newest »
newest »
spousal abusewell, they certainly didn't marry for love so I'm certain trust issues abound, especially since Gorlois is much older than Igraine and she is a young, beautiful woman. I'm obviously not condoning his abuse, just stating the facts as I see them. And then a young, handsome man arrives on the scene and Igraine and he are clearly attracted to each other (by forces even greater than the present!), I can understand how Gorlois can be jealous but I can't approve AT ALL of his behavior to it. When you marry out of love, you really should be prepared for these things.
trust and faith
I think at her young age (isn't she around 18-19? I can't exactly remember) she probably hasn't seen enough, or experienced enough yet, to have stronger faith. I know at that age I tended to see the more gloomy, depressing side of things. It has taken years and lots of experience to have more faith in my beliefs. :)
Stephanie, you have me very curious about chapter 8! :)
Tasha wrote: "Stephanie, you have me very curious about chapter 8! :)"hahahaha! :D
I think if I were pent up in a castle and left to my own thoughts after a quick getaway I might also think plans might fail.I am enjoying watching Igraine grown in strength. She's still quick to conclusions and a bit dramatic, but really a person I am enjoying watch grow.
I think in terms of marital strife that the current situation is exacerbating problems of differences in culture that have been there all along.
Stephanie wrote:trust and faithI think at her young age (isn't she around 18-19? I can't exactly remember) she probably hasn't seen enough, or experienced enough yet, to have stronger faith. I know at that age I tended to see the more gloomy, depressing side of things. It has taken years and lots of experience to have more faith in my beliefs. :)
I felt the same way. I really got annoyed with the way in which she kept suddenly becoming convinced that what she knows is going to happen, and must happen, somehow was not going to happen, and every time something did seem to go wrong she became determined that the rest of her life was going to be miserable.
It was as if no matter what happened she convinced herself that she was going to be doomed. At first she felt doomed by the fact that she was going to be fated to betray her husband and being played like a pawn to be given over to another man.
But than after she became convinced that she loved Uther she began convincing herself that she would never acutally get to be with him and everything would go wrong.
She was quite frustrating, particularly when her faith seemed to be strong enough when she in fact did not want it to happen, but when she was suddenly anticipating it, she than lost her faith completely.
Though considering her life perhaps it is understandable why she would have such a consistently pessimistic outlook. But I could not help but roll my eyes at moments becasue of the wishy-washiness of her belief.
As far as spousal abuse is concerned, it would be fairly anachronistic if a Roman man, a soldier and someone steeped in early Christianity, didn't hit his wife. A man who didn't would be considered morally inadequate to run his household. Does this mean I approve? No, but I don't think a woman married to Gorlois is anywhere near as unfortunate as she could have been. It is mentioned early on that he could have had Morgaine exposed or pawned off elsewhere, killing/removing her to make room for a son, but he didn't because he is not really a cruel man, just a product of the times and traditions he knows.
Amber wrote: "As far as spousal abuse is concerned, it would be fairly anachronistic if a Roman man, a soldier and someone steeped in early Christianity, didn't hit his wife. A man who didn't would be considered..."Though I did not approve of some of his behavior and actions, a part of me could not help but in fact feel sorry for Gorloris. He was condemned to die by the powers that be so his wife whom he did in his way love, could be given over to another man and though he should not have hit her (but as you stated it was a produced of the times) it seemed he had only began to become violent and jealous towards her when in fact his suspensions were accurate. Though Igraine had not actually engaged in physical intimacy with Uther, she was falling in love with another man and a plot by her sister was being made behind his back to remove his wife from him.
He did try to be kind to her in the best way that he knew how and for people to marry out of love, was something that would be virtually unknown at this period of time.
It seemed as if the author was simply trying to villianize Gorloris as much as possible towards the end to make her affair with Uther more sympathetic and more "justified"
As there may have been stronger negative reactions to Igraine if Gorlois was portrayed as being this endearing and loving husband.
Silver wrote: "Amber wrote: "As far as spousal abuse is concerned, it would be fairly anachronistic if a Roman man, a soldier and someone steeped in early Christianity, didn't hit his wife. A man who didn't would..."I agree, but I am glad that Bradley gives us moments to notice that Gorlois is not evil. His apology to Igraine following his outburst was an indication that he is old, tired and jealous, but that these are not evil things, just life in all of its ugly realities. There are elements of justification, particularly when Uther defends Igraine from her own husband in public, but they are not too heavy to be construed as black-and-white judgment against one man or the other. To be honest, if it wasn't for the past-life dream and all of the talk about fate, I wouldn't trust Uther's motives with a woman; his reputation precedes him.
Great thoughts here everyone. I have to agree with most of the sentiments here. Do I sympathise with Gorlois? Yes. Do I understand why he is behaving the way he is? Yes. Am I happy with his treatment of Igraine? Absolutely not. He comes across as a complete brute. But then, he is as much a victim of the romanised society he lives in as Igraine is and he could behave in a much crueller manner if he wished with impunity. To me, he seems like a man with a hot temper whoes whole life is falling apart about him. I've found myself wondering if Igraine's indifference hurt him at all.As for Igraine's lack of faith, I've put this down to her age (after all, she is a teenaged sufferer of domestic abuse) and the fact that life has been such a disappointment to her so far. I'm not sure she dares to dream of better things.
And finally the adultry question. Igraine was against the idea of committing adultry from the start, it is circumstances that have conspired against her to the point that she finally makes a concious choice to aid Uther against Gorlois (although this brings up other ethical questions we havn't even mentioned yet, too). She seems to almost surrender to the idea of betraying her husband as an inevitability rather than plot gleefully to further her own cause.
In a way I cannot help but wonder if Gorlois's brutish behavior towards Igraine was in itself part of some "enchantment" as there was a brief moment in time after which Igraine found out what was fated for her and her husband that she began to develop tender feelings for her husband and began to see his good traits and how he was kind to her in his indulging her love for her daughter, and how she could have had a much worse husband than he. If he had not began to drive her away with his sudden brutal acts, accusations and bursts of temper, than Igraine might never have been able to do what she needed to do to secure her future and fate with Uther, by betraying her very own husband and sending him to his death. Igraine needed to be made calloused against Gorlois if she was going to be able to accept Uther.
Everyone is a pawn in the greater plan, so it would seem.
I have to say that I was left with rather mixed feelings about Viviane, for though she is supposed to be speaking of the Goddess and working for the "greater good" I never did like that sort of mentality of one thinking they do have some inherent right to dictate the lives of others becasue it is what they beleive the "right" thing is to do. That mentality of expectation that everyone should just bow down in obedience to your will and the arrogance in believing you do have that right to have power and control over others for whatever your motivates and intentions might be has always rubbed me the wrong way.
Those who use their power or authority to further a "greater good" are always, to my way of thinking, divisive characters. To suggest that there is a greater good means there must be sacrifices made to it, or that the ends will justify the means. Problematic for sure.
Silver wrote: "I have to say that I was left with rather mixed feelings about Viviane, for though she is supposed to be speaking of the Goddess and working for the "greater good" I never did like that sort of men..."Even Igraine says that she is afraid, in some ways, not to do what is being asked of her...as what is supposed to happen will happen and she can go with it and be a part of it, or be against it and tempt fate/the goddess/whatever to give her a cruel death or worse.
If he had not began to drive her away with his sudden brutal acts, accusations and bursts of temper, than Igraine might never have been able to do what she needed to do to secure her future and fate with Uther, by betraying her very own husband and sending him to his death. Igraine needed to be made calloused against Gorlois if she was going to be able to accept Uther.
I find this point very interesting...because of what I missed above, but also because of something that someone (I can't remember who!) said about what was there was there along...I believe The Merlin said it...what the goddess wants doesn't go against what is supposed to happen, so Gorlois being that way isn't new, it's just something she's beginning to notice because it is no longer something she has to accept and keep; she is no longer his.
Amanda wrote: "As for Igraine's lack of faith, I've put this down to her age (after all, she is a teenaged sufferer of domestic abuse) and the fact that life has been such a disappointment to her so far. I'm not sure she dares to dream of better things."Ooh, i think that really hits on it. Agree!
I enjoyed this part much more than last week's. The scene with the astral projection (or whatever it was - I can't think of a better way to describe it) and her illness afterwards was pretty epic. It's interesting how the idea of adultery has been tackled, and the way that both Gorlois and Igraine are reacting to their situation.Did anyone else find the mentions of Gorlois/Morgause ever so sinister? I assume it's not going to happen, but eurgh.
And ungh I am just wanting Igraine and Uther to get it together already!
While I understand Igraine's frustration at being kept as a prisoner, I don't know why she would assume that the sort of life-changing events the Merlin and Viviane are talking about and her dreams have revealed would happen overnight. These kinds of things take time. Despite her being a "decent matron," she still displays the impatience typical of the average 19-year-old. I guess it goes back to the initial post about lack of faith.
Amber wrote: "While I understand Igraine's frustration at being kept as a prisoner, I don't know why she would assume that the sort of life-changing events the Merlin and Viviane are talking about and her dreams..."Agreed!
I hate when that happens. It happened to me with Little Dorrit earlier this year.
Shame you feel that way Judy, but if its not for you, its not for you! See you in Three Musketeers and Uncle Silas!
Judy wrote: "I hate committing to something then dropping out, but I'm just not getting into this book even though I read ahead hoping I would feel differently. So, I'm going to focus on my other 2 Chunksters, ..."I understand. I am glad you are enjoying the other reads!
I'm not sure if I have questions per se, but here we go...
thoughts on adultery
I like how Marion Zimmer Bradley really does show us all sides of the equation when someone marries out of duty not love. She even goes so far as to give us hints that Gorlois does love Igraine, but that Igraine has done right by him and Uther, because he asked Igraine outright, also did right by him. Nothing that happened bothered me, but I am also a person that believes that Hester loved Dimmesdale and Chillingworth was in the wrong not her.
spousal abuse
We are given so many reasons to not like Gorlois and yet this is the one, to me, that says that he does not deserve his wife. He is jealous and quick to act without thinking of the consequences much like a child...although he is way past the years to be acting this way.
trust and faith
Igraine's lack of faith enervates me...and when she waxes on about how something isn't going to happen because she ruined it or it's been ruined...I just want to tell her to have faith. Even when she sees that how she thinks something should happen isn't how it comes about, she still doubts and lacks, well, I guess she lacks patience enough to have faith.
What do you all think? Any themes start sticking out to you?