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Mists of Avalon 1: ix-xi, 3-60 (Prologue, Chapters 1-4)
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Knowing that Mists of Avalon was famed for having strong feminist themes I was surprised by the restrictions put upon Igrane by her marriage to Gorlois, but the contrasts drawn between the matriacal society of Avalon and the patriacal society of the roman-influenced Christians bring up an interesting contrast. Taking into consideration how different Igraine's upbringing must have been to thelife she is now obliged to live, it is no wonder that she is embittered towards her husband and the people who pushed her into such a strange situation. I can empahise with Igraine, it must have been hard for her to adapt, torn from the life and the people she knew and the absence and emotional distance of Gorlois would not have helped. I'm put in mind of other such arranged marriages where the wedding night almost seems to be rape and can imagine that Igraine's feelings would have been far off. It is no wonder that she would envy her sister's freedom and not see that Viviane's lifestyle has challenges of its own.
Well said Amanda! What I like about this book so far, besides the writing, is the mystical element. I love the idea of reincarnation so was really thrilled to see it pop up in the story. I also love the idea of creating things by thought (law of attraction) and see elements of that in this story as well. I think this is going to be a great read!
Regarding your second question - this issue is not brought up, but two thoughts do come to mind. Firstly, perhaps Viviane and Merlin were unable to see so far as to realise the crutial relationship would have been between a woman of Avalon and Uther, but knew that a link must be forged between Avalon and the other world. Tintagel is not as far from Glastonbury compared to where other potential suitors may have been located, so it may have been the most convienient choice at the time. Perhaps this is evidence of Avalon's wanning influence over the other world as mentioned by Merlin and Viviane - after all, did they not tell Igraine that getting from Avalon to Tintagel was difficult enough as it was? No doubt their powers of foresight are failing too.
Another thought is that perhaps a marriage between Uther and Igraine directly was not possible for some reason and Gorlois was merely being used as a launching pad for Igraine's true mission in the other world. Uther's youth and reputation for womanising do not encourage us to think that he would have been happy to settle down with Igraine and start a family and Igraine will need support to raise a bastard son in such a patriarcal world.
Something else that has just occured to me is that Gorlois is supposed to be much older than Igraine isn't he? Viviane and Merlin predict that Gorlois will give Igraine no son and he does not seem to be able to get Igraine pregnant again despite trying. Perhaps he is no longer as fertile as he used to be and Igraine herself knows he isn't far off from dying.
And finally, rather than hog the discussion, I'd like to ask a few questions too:
Why is Merlin refered to as 'The Merlin"?
How does Uther differ from Gorlois and does this play a part in Viviane and Merlin's plans?
Tasha wrote: "Well said Amanda! What I like about this book so far, besides the writing, is the mystical element. I love the idea of reincarnation so was really thrilled to see it pop up in the story. I also l..."
Sorry Tasha - I missed your post whilst composing my second mini essay!
I'm loving the mystial element too! Its strangely reminiscent of Buddhism, but with a prehistoric, mother goddess as nature spin that I'm absolutely loving. The theory of ancient matriarcal societies facinate me.
So far, a thrilling but intelligent read. I can already tell I'm going to enjoy this.
I totally agree with both of you...what I like about the mystical element is that Igraine seems to be growing up and understanding and accept her role. I love this book! I just hadn't given myself time to read it all these years! :DAbout Amanda's questions:
1] I thought that maybe he's called The Merlin for two reason a) being that he seems to be the only male that Avalon deems as equal to the women and the goddess (I'm trying to figure out a way to say that, but can't come up with something better) he's more than just the 'baby daddy', which is evident when he accompanies Viviane to visit Igraine and is also evident in the way Morgaine responds to him, actually in the way they all respond to him and b)simply, he is the only one of his kind. :D
2] Uther seems to be more of a go getter and although Gorlois doesn't think so he seems to be a man of true faith not of religion and pomp. He will be a powerful but compassionate leader, even if he is a womanizer.
PS. Amanda I enjoyed the mini essay!
Melissa wrote: "I'm a bit behind in my reading because of school starting tomorrow for my son and all those fun things that go along with it! I'm going to catch up though! So far I'm really liking how this is wr..."
me too! and, i'm sure once school starts, i'll be preoccupied as well!
We must all be thinking alike. I agree with everyone statements to the questions asked. The Merlin is one of a kind considering Viviane has had to give away her children due to them being boys. This is fascinating considering Igraine duty to her husband is to deliver a son. (such an easy task). I am also concerned with the youngest of the sisters, Morgause. Viviane made a little prediction of her fate that did not sound to promising. Igraine should pray "That Morgause would never where that face" Hmmm? Let the pondering begin.
I've not really enjoyed the first section of this book. I think it's partly because I'm struggling to filter out the important information from the massive amount of description. It just reads to me really long-winded - I really hope the pace picks up soon!I also have a tendency of disliking books where characters mull on or talk about religion an excessive amount. :-/
However, there are many books that fail to grab me in the first 50 pages and there have been moments in this that I've enjoyed. So I'll be continuing to read along because reading the discussion here has made me think yes - there is definitely an interesting plot here!
I usually hate books about religion but I'm ok with this one. I actually follow the beliefs of reincarnation and law of attraction and I'm enjoying the aspects of these thing thrown in the story.
Hi folks... getting to what Amanda and Tasha have hit on, I never really made the connection between Goddess worship, the Druids, reincarnation, and Buddhism, but I am definitely seeing and enjoying those linkages here.
I was never a huge history buff in school (my teachers were more interested in royal family gossip than the actual crux of what i find interesting), but I have always wondered how Christianity forced its way in to a well established cultural system. Don't get me wrong, this has happened with colonialism everywhere else and we can see that, but I've always thought that "back in the day" even England went through the same experience, and I feel that this book is exploring those themes front and center.
While Igraine seems a bit "childish" in some senses? Or even like she's pitching a fit at times... her questioning of everything makes it *really* easy to get the reader up to speed and into the game. I don't know that I'd be willing to go along with this in every book i read? but i feel the effort in recasting Arthurian legend through another lens is well served by some hand holding.
As to the question of "why marry Igraine off to Gorlois?" I definitely think that Igraine has it right herself, that she needed a time to grow up and learn the ways of the world (and honestly, meet Uther at a time where he is pretty open and less coarse than usual)... aside from which... Morgaine still needed to come from somewhere, and Viviane has no daughters...
so much prophecy and importance laid on gender from both ends. Personally I'm liking that the perspectives play out so deeply. The "we should all be able to believe as we wish" sentiment is spot on, and hopefully doesn't get too preachy as the book continues.
Kristina... you talk about the part of the prophetic visit i enjoyed the most: insuniation that the Goddess triptic just isn't all there is. I don't feel like i have a good grasp on the age of this younger sister, except that she seems like a bit of a rambunctious teen who likes power?
[admin question... should this thread be titled with *spoilers*? maybe self evident?]
I think we're working on the assumption that all spoilers are okay as long as they relate to the section of the schedule we're discussing. If you read ahead, hide your spoilers and if you're behind on your reading, read comments at your peril!
alana (eHawk) wrote: "Hi folks... getting to what Amanda and Tasha have hit on, I never really made the connection between Goddess worship, the Druids, reincarnation, and Buddhism, but I am definitely seeing and enjoy..."
Alana, I have to agree with Amanda about spoilers!
And, now I want to comment on a couple of topics you brought up. First of all, I am so sorry that your history teachers were not really into history. My high school teachers were fabulous and my college professors, save one who said that we weren't going to cover the American Civil war (although it was a class up to the end of the civil war) because if we hadn't tried to fight the British that war never would have happened, really did open up a whole new world to me.
And, there are so many Arthurian stories involving Morgause, she eventually has a son with King Arthur...before they find out they are brother and sister or something like that. She is the mother of Gawain (my favorite knight) and Mordred, who kills Arthur...hence all the foreshadowing about her in the book thus far.
Hm, I might be getting a bit confused, but I thought it was Morgaine who would become the mother of Mordred? I've been wondering how Morgause fit in, she is not a character I am familar with.I've always loved history! I grew up reading a series of books called 'Horrible Histories' that emphasise all the gory and surprising little facts deleted from more serious accounts that really brought history alive for me. I was also lucky enough to have a bunch of teachers really passionate about their subjects that expanded my understanding of the world we currently live in, especially in classical history and 20th century american history (although I wish they had shown a little more dedication to the modern history of my own country, the UK - but I guess they thought I had enough British history under my belt and world history was pretty cursory in general, but I guess they could only take us for so many lessons a week).
To me, history and literature are not too dissimilar and both hold similar roles in helping us to explore our reality, who we are, where we come from and where we are going. After all, the french word for a story is 'histoire'!
I don't have a lot of time right now, to read through the previous posts, I'll do that tomorrow..and add to the conversation then. However, I just wanted to let everyone know that I might be developing a little crush on Uther. :)
However, I just wanted to let everyone know that I might be developing a little crush on Uther. :) We may have to fight for him Liz ;) lol.
I prefer my fictional characters to look more like Legolas and less like Aragorn :D
Amanda wrote: "Hm, I might be getting a bit confused, but I thought it was Morgaine who would become the mother of Mordred? I've been wondering how Morgause fit in, she is not a character I am familar with.I'v..."
Morgause has been recorded as the mother of Mordred in some tellings (Geoffrey of Monmouth I think). She has also been cast as the daughter of Igraine, rather than her sister in other tales. I think Bradley is casting her in the role that best works for her interpretation. I think in some ways Bradley has taken the "original" Morgan le Fay (although there is no strict single interpretation) and split her into two characters, Morgaine and Morgause, for her story.
I have Monmouth's work (History of the Kings of Britain), Le Morte de Arthur and Idylls of the King, and I like to try and skim over them from time to time while reading this. I'm not sure if it's going to be helpful of just plain confusing, since they're all very different.
Amanda wrote: "Hm, I might be getting a bit confused, but I thought it was Morgaine who would become the mother of Mordred? I've been wondering how Morgause fit in, she is not a character I am familar with.I'v..."
I, too, had really wonderful History and English teachers, hence the degree and emphasis, I had to look in one of my old lit books to see about Morgause and that's what its information said...I only remember her briefly in L Mort...blah, blah, blah... but didn't remember the way the lit book talked about her.
Thanks for the info Amber and Stephanie - you have educated me. It is apparent that despite being familiar with several renderings of the story, theres still some concepts of the legend that have escaped me. I have Le Morte d'Arthur, A Once and Future King, Mary Stewart's Merlin Trilogy and Bernard Cornwell's Arthur Trilogy and book one of Lyonesse to read - so many different versions!I also think I have a bit of a crush on Uther! His rugged, warm and caring personality, paganistic suggestions and hints at an Atlantian heritage contrast so starkly with Gorlois' cold, mysogynistic and abusive behaviour.
Finally read through all of your comments. Wonderful information which mostly pointed out to me just how much I DON'T know. :-D This is my first Arthurian book & I'm glad I started with this one, I think. Nice to get the story from the women's POV. I did think Igraine was pretty quick to switch gears and accept her new role and Uther as a possible father to her future son.
As usual, I am starting out behind, but I should be able to catch up quickly. I finished the first section for this one and am enjoying re-reading the story of Arthur from a different perspective. One of my favorite books of all times in The Once and Future King by T.H. White. This book begins way before that one, and I am loving being immersed in the story. As for the characters so far, I really am not finding Ingraine as being very spoiled. I think it is because I read a LOT of ancient and medieval history and historical fiction, and she doesn't seem to complain much more than most of the women of that era. It seems to be a trend for women during these times. I believe it is mostly because of their lack of ability to choose the direction and outcome of their lives.
Additionally, I think that having Ingraine marry Gorlois before Uther makes sense. Not only from the perspective of giving her experience in dealing with a man, as is mentioned above, but also Gorlois and Uther's paths were destined to cross many times, so I see this as a way of getting Ingraine and Uther to notice each other. Also - with Uther being a lot less gruff and more willing to listen to Ingraine, the contrast of that with Gorlois character may have made it easier to get her to accept Uther.
The question about Merlin being The Merlin is interesting. I agree that the addition of "The" gives the name a denotation of respect. Additionally, there are several legends, myths, and stories that purport that there were many Merlins, not just one person, and that Merlin is actually the title given to the goddess' top male wizard.
Hi, all,I've also been a laggard on this book, but trying to catch up now. I just finished this section and will plough on.
I agree with Zee that all the description and talk of religion was dull and my mind kept wandering to the point where I had to re-read the dull parts so I could understand what was happening. Even worse, although I'm sympathetic to the religious view (I even have a relative who's a wiccan, though I know next to nothing about the religion), there's something annoyingly propagandistic about the presentation that I find annoying.
Maybe in 1983, when the book was written, the ideas were more radical and needed more explanation and pumping up?
I also have to say that the book seems like a romance book with a feminist packaging.
But all those criticisms said, it has drawn me in and made me want to keep reading.
I also have to say that the book seems like a romance book with a feminist packaging.I think, due to the subject matter, romance is unavoidable. The Arthurian stories are full of intrigues related to love and sex. I think the sexual politics contributed more to the overall story than battlefields or grail hunting, and with this being written from a female POV, it will be even more obvious since that is where women hold the most power in that period.
I totally agree, Amber. The intrigues of the Arthurian legend were rooted in the sexual intrigues between Arthur, Guienever, Lancelot, and Morgaine/Morgause (sho seem to be interchangealbe depending on which version you are reading). As such, that is going to be unavoidable in this book. In addition, I don't think that this book is going to end up in a HEA mode. Additionally, the contrasts between the two religions is integral to the story. For that reason I think that the intense discussion in the first few chapters is necessary. Especially since most people, while they are aware of the Christian religion, are not that well versed in the Druid religions, and the conflicts between the two during this time period.
I have found that one of the problems with stopping to comment after the first 50 pages of most "chunksters" is that those pages mostly deal with setting up the story and are often not a good representation of the final story.
Amanda wrote: "Thanks for the info Amber and Stephanie - you have educated me. It is apparent that despite being familiar with several renderings of the story, theres still some concepts of the legend that have ..."Those are all good renditions of the story. One of the things that intrigues me so much about this story is the differing ways it is told, which is only right for a good legend. Have you read the Stephen Lawhead boods about it yet? They are also good.
Lyn M wrote: "Amanda wrote: "Thanks for the info Amber and Stephanie - you have educated me. It is apparent that despite being familiar with several renderings of the story, theres still some concepts of the le..."I read Taliesin years ago, but I don't remember much about it anymore.
Building on Amber's comments, the King Arthur legends come from a period of time when practically all fictional works were 'romances'. The themes were so typical of medieval literature that they didn't even strike me until Ellen mentioned them.
True, Amanda. I guess I have just come to expect that.
Reading the Chunksters
Books mentioned in this topic
Taliesin (other topics)The Once and Future King (other topics)
First, a little bit about me. I teach high school English (Honors 10th graders, 10th graders and Publications). I am a 35 year old mother of a 22 month old and I am so looking forward to discussion of this book.
The question I first ask my students when we begin to discuss anything really...Is what do you like/dislike about this work so far (I usually make them site examples...you don't have to! :D) and then I get on to the questions I may have, which for this section are the following:
1] So far, I am finding Igraine and little spoiled and narrow-minded thinking that she is the only one that's doing the most sacrificing...is this true? What has Viviane done, in terms of sacrifice?
2] Why did the Goddess have Igraine marry Gorlois, if she was going to find true love with Uther?
Feel free to answer some/all/start your own!
Let the discussion begin!