The Shining
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A very spoilery question (don't click if you don't want to know)
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I thought he died in the explosion at the end. It's been about 7 months since I've read it, though, so my memory could be a bit rusty.
Jack was still Jack, fighting the hotel's influence. It's not an inconsistency, it's just the 'real' Jack poking through one last time before being totally taken over. Then, in the moment of triumph, the 'possessed' Jack realizes he's forgotten something. He doesn't die until the hotel goes up.
But by the time the explosion occurs, he's being referred to as "it": "It hurried across the basement and into the feeble yellow glow of the furnace room's only light." Before that, the confrontation with Danny and his father in the hall, there's that bit where Danny sees the faces of all the other spirits in his father. Plus, the fact that she stabbed him and he seems to die and then rise again."Alive" and "dead" are sort of fluid concepts in the Overlook, I get that. But I thought from the writing that he had turned that crucial corner after the stabbing, and then the confrontation with Danny didn't fit with that. I was just wondering if anybody who has more experience with the book (I've never read it before) had any explanations for me: "Well, the supernatural world of The Shining follows these rules..."
I really love that moment because I want to believe that even in cases of possession like that, that the human soul can still fight back the evil, the way Jack was able to do to save his son. In the Exorcist,
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that happens too - Father Karras lets the demon possess him so it will leave the girl, but there's enough of him left for him to throw himself out the window, thereby depriving the demon of a body.
From all I've read of real accounts of supposed possession, King and Blatty were going by what seems to happen in real life cases. (Except that I've never read of a case in which a human was INSTANTLY possessed, as seems to happen in THE EXORCIST.
Erin,You make a good point about the use of 'it' but I took that to mean the being that Jack was becoming. To me it was King's way of telling you that Jack's struggle was lost, but at the same time Jack was still struggling. You mention the ghosts Danny sees, but Jack would be one of those if he was taken over, so he's still existing in there--just with others in the mix.
The coming back after being knifed was, again, the Overlook's/power's work. Jack was PART of what was in him, and just before the place blows up, he struggles to the surface again before going down for the last time.
Not saying this is the final answer for you, but to me that's what I got out of it, and was never in any doubt. I know how these kinds of things can scratch at your mind, hope you get your answer!
I think Jack died right after he resisted the hotel; the hotel used the weapon on Jack by having him attack himself with the stick (I forget what game it was for).
I like John's view. When Jack was stabbed, he lost his battle with the Overlook. His soul, or his spirit died. He died physically when the place exploded. I don't think the real Jack ever went away when he gave-in to the Overlook, he was just beaten way down deep. The strength of his love for his son brought him back to the surface just long enough for him to save Danny. Then he was lost again.
Maybe he was refered to as "it" simply because, to the Overlook, he was dead, part of the whole.
Interesting question, like some others, it's been a while since I've read it. But I have to say that it was SO much better than the movie!
I don't think Jack actually died until the end during the explosion. There would be short times that you would actually see small flashes of Jack up until the end. Loved this book. It has always been one of my favorites.
Lindis wrote: "I like John's view. When Jack was stabbed, he lost his battle with the Overlook. His soul, or his spirit died. He died physically when the place exploded. I don't think the real Jack ever went aw..."
I think the book is so much better than the movie too. Although it was pretty neat watching Jack Nicholson portray going mad over a time period. He did a great job with a really tough part to portray.
To me, Jack died twice. First, the good part of him died when he took the roque mallet to his head and bashed his own face in. That was the Bad Jack destroying Good Jack. After that he was it--all the various forms of demons and ghouls--just in the body of Jack. From there it was just Bad Jack, who subsequently died in the explosion. I think of it like two different people behind the wheel of one car. There's Jack, the car, Then there's Good Jack and Bad Jack fighting over the wheel. Good Jack jerks the wheel away from Bad Jack long enough to save Danny. Bad Jack gets the wheel back, just in time to realize the car's heading over a cliff...or towards an exploding boiler.
Just my 2 cents.
I honestly don't think there was an official Jack transitioning to "it." I think it was a slow gradual progression the entire time.
Andrew wrote: "To me, Jack died twice. First, the good part of him died when he took the roque mallet to his head and bashed his own face in. That was the Bad Jack destroying Good Jack. After that he was it--a..."What page did he bash the mallet against his own head?
Anthony wrote: "I honestly don't think there was an official Jack transitioning to "it." I think it was a slow gradual progression the entire time."At the end of the chapter THAT WHICH WAS FORGOTTEN, right after Danny stands up to his dad.
He died (completely) in an explosion at the end. Before that, there were several occasions in which he should have died, but didn`t, because the Overlook was protecting him.
I don't mean to sound like a git here but I really don't think any of this is open to interpretation and it's quite clear what happens. Jack kills himself when he takes the roque mallet to his face;it's his redemption, his last ditch attempt to save his son.Immediately after this Danny looks at the caved in face and sees an amalgamation of the hotel's ghouls and spooks, the hotel at this point is in full control of Jack's body, Jack's mind and spirit are dead.
I don't see where people are getting the idea that any part of him dies when Wendy stabs him.
Ok now I want to read this story again.
A git is a British slang term. It's basically an unprofane way of saying arsehole.
Erin wrote: "When does Jack officially die and become one of the hotel's malevolent spirits?It seemed to me that he actually died after Wendy stabbed him at the bottom of the stairs, and that from then on h..."
Jack temporarily took charge over the hotel spirits to let Danny get away in the hall upstairs. When he says "Masks off" and bashes his own face off with the roque mallet, is when the hotel gets complete control and Jack is gone.
All I know is he blows up in that room that was had a heater or something and he is gone.The characters escape and he died alone inside of the hotel. . .
Kyle wrote: "I don't mean to sound like a git here but I really don't think any of this is open to interpretation and it's quite clear what happens. Jack kills himself when he takes the roque mallet to his fac..."I totally agree, Kyle. He had brief control when he let Danny escape but after he smashes his face, Jack is dead.
I don't know about Jack's death, it's been years since I read the book and I'll never read another thing Stephen King writes.OTOH I think Stephen King should run for president. I'm Republican and I'm not voting for ANY of the current candidate. The only one I would have considered seems to have disappeared yet aGAIN. He's done that once before, so he might reappear again.
But, in reference to Stephen King, I think he'd make a better president than old Mitt-stake Romney.
I love that interpretation, Tony.
It's been years since I've last read it, but I agree with Kyle. I've always understood that the real Jack died when he took the mallet to his face. I believe Jack's problems with abuse and alcohol (and the guilt and self-loathing that accompanied them) made him more susceptible to the evil forces of Overlook.
Thanks for the back up Bridget and Carolyn.Interesting way of looking at it Tony.
Maybe the "evil" in the Overlook is representative of his demons with alcoholism. . . he has no alcohol but becomes drunk thanks to the spirits that will make him think he is getting them. . . and because he has no beliefs spiritually he is susceptible to the strength of the hotel.He dies as a result of his weaknesses. . . and he is part of it like it is a cruel afterworld.
I believe Jack dies right after he tells his son to run away. He turns the mallet on himself, and beats his face a bunch of times, impossible for a normal man. I mean you can't simply beat yourself with a hammer, until your face is irreversibly damaged- unless you are possessed. So, after Jack tells his son to run, the inhabiting spirit kills him with the mallet to the face, then has complete control over the body. imo!
Officially Jack dies at the end when the boiler explodes. But, since early on the Overlook was exerting its force on his vulnerable psyche and slowly making him crazy, or bringing out his craziness. At the end though a part of the old Jack was still around enough to warn Danny away.
Yeah, he dies at the end after he helps Danny one more time. That's how I remember it. I also thought that in Doctor Sleep, Danny reflected back on his father's death, and it was that moment when the boiler blows up. And it is pretty typical for Stephen King to create villains that are invulnerable to physical pain, so I was not convinced with the Jack died when he was stabbed or smashed himself with a croquet mallet.
Am I the only one that actually hates the movie with Jack Nicholson? It just never made any sense to me- the going mad part yes but the interactions with the spirits/ Was so happy to read the book and finally "get' what was going on
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It seemed to me that he actually died after Wendy stabbed him at the bottom of the stairs, and that from then on he was one of the evil spirits. EXCEPT, later he shows mercy for Danny and allows him to escape, suggesting that a part of him is still Jack. Inconsistency? Or something more complicated?