Robert E. Howard Readers discussion
Conan & the Hyborian Age
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July 2011 Group Read: The Black Stranger - The Treasure of Tranicos
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I've read 2 versions of this story; "The Black Stranger" & "The Treasure of Tranicos". I didn't read them back to back, but read the latter in the Lancer edition of Conan: Conan the Usurper, so it was rewritten by L. Sprague de Camp. I think I like that version the best since it tends to add some continuity to the Conan saga.http://www.howardworks.com/storyb.htm...
has more details.
Love this story. But which REH character played the lead role in "The Treasure of Tranicos?" I forgot.
Conan, of course. Warning! Conan Series spoilers below!!!
It's how he got enough money to overthrow the king of Aquilonia.
Also, one of the bad guys here is Thoth Amon, a Stygian sorcerer that Conan crosses paths with a couple of times, sometimes very obliquely, as in "The Phoenix on the Sword".
Yes, definitely Conan. But I read the same story another time and the protagonist wasn't Conan; it was another one of REH's characters. I think that story was titled "The Black Stranger" as well, not "The Treasure of Tranicos."
From HowardWorks.com"The Black Stranger" was originally written as a Conan story that was not accepted. REH rewrote it into a Black Vulmea story ("Swords of the Red Brotherhood"), which was also not accepted. L Sprague de Camp rewrote the original Conan story into a different Conan story ("The Treasure of Tranicos"). Cross Plains Library has an original draft of this story. For publication in Fantasy Magazine #1, the story was abridged, edited by L Sprague de Camp, and re-written further by Lester del Rey. Hence, there are 3 different versions of this story, "The Black Stranger" (REH1), "Swords of the Red Brotherhood" (REH2), and "The Treasure of Tranicos" (REH/LSDC).
http://howardworks.com/storysm.htm#swor7
will get you to "Swords of the Red Brotherhood". If you follow the links all around there, you'll pick up some more info. There are 2 synopsis of the story, too. I've never had a chance to read the Black Vulmea version, but it sounds like it is very similar to "The Black Stranger". There isn't a huge difference between the two Conan versions, IMO.
Yes, that was the character - Black Vulmea. I think I read that version first. In any case, it is a great story.
I wonder how much difference there is between "The Black Stranger" & "Swords of the Red Brotherhood". Does anyone know?
I found "Swords of the Red Brotherhood" here:http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Swords_...
I only skimmed it, but it seemed pretty much identical to "The Black Stranger" save for name changes. Indians instead of Picts, Vulmea instead of Conan, etc..
The biggest difference between these versions & "The Treasure of Tranicos" is the magic. (view spoiler)
Another difference is Conan's motivation. In 'Black Stranger' & 'Red Brotherhood', (view spoiler)
'The Black Stranger'I did not like this story.
As a reader, especially as a reader of Howard's stories, I like to be swept away in the tale and forget that Conan probably couldn't really kill 100 men and escape unharmed. I want to be carried along on a fantastic journey and watch Conan grapple with terrible monsters and barely escape with his life.
In 'The Black Stranger,' however, Howard makes it hard for me to suspend my disbelief. I felt the story jumped around too much. It was like a pirate story with a couple Conan chapters thrown in afterward. The Conan/action parts were great - I really liked the opening hunt scene, for example, but I never felt like this was about Conan.
You throw in pirates, a fortress, a princess, three bad-ass bad guys, a magic cave that Conan escapes from (Howard never tells us how), and, oh, yeah, the 'Black Stranger' (almost forgot about him...) and things get very distracting. There just isn't a common story thread.
Add to it the ending, which I thought was non-heroic: Conan shows up in time to see the demon kill the bad guy and - guess what - Conan just happens to know how to kill this invincible demon. So he does. Quickly, easily, with no risk to himself. And gets the girl. And climbs over the wall just as the city is overrun by savages (a common Howard ending, as I'm coming to learn).
I don't like writing a negative review on a Howard fan website (and I am a fan) - but I thought this was one of Howard's lesser stories. I'm reading from the collection titled The Black Stranger: And Other American Tales' and half of the stories are carbon copies of 'Stranger.' Same plot, different hero.
On the other hand, Howard's non-swashbuckling stories are mostly new to me and I am enjoying them very much. From his early-20th century Southwest settings, I might recommend:
1. Pigeons From Hell (my favorite Howard story, btw)
2. The Horror From The Mound
3. The Valley of the Lost
P.
P.S.) Just so you don't think I'm being a jerk, I voted for 'The Black Stranger' way back when, and I had not read it before.
Tastes vary. Nothing wrong with not caring for a specific story or character. Maybe my liking for the story is based a lot on reading it first as 'Treasure of Tranicos', the only version of 3 that actually got published & edited. That story does take care of two of your points: how Conan got away from the cave & knew how to kill the demon. It also explains more why such disparate folks come together at this point & Conan's role felt more concrete, IMO.
Thanks for the comment, Jim.Yes, Michael had mentioned that 'Tranicos' was the edited version of this story, so I suspect it has a tighter storyline. Hmm... why would a recent Howard compendium (The Black Stranger: And Other American Tales) publish an unedited version of a story when an edited version was available? Not a great first story for a 350 page book.
Ah, well, not important I suppose. Still, it's nice to read work that's not perfected - as a writer myself, I can appreciate that.
Kirk out.
DeCamp changed 'Black Stranger' quite a bit & a lot of Howard fans don't feel it is right, I guess since REH had no input. I read one place that complained of changed motivations of Conan.
Thanks for your comments, Mark & Jim. I read the "Tranicos" version many years ago and enjoyed it, but can't remember that much of the detail now. Once I've finished my current book I'm going to read "Stranger" (not read before) and "Tranicos" back-to-back and see how they stack up to each other.
"Black Stranger," "The Treasure of Tranicos," "Swords of the Red Brotherhood"... they are confusing the hell out of me. (view spoiler)
I hate to suggest that you're having a senior moment Ó Ruairc (OK, I'm lying. As someone subject to them often, I'm actually quite happy when someone else has them. ;-) ) but could you be confusing it with another story? It might be "Pool Of The Black One" which also features Conan & pirates.
Jim, O'Ruairc,In the Black Stranger version I have, Conan does in fact tell his erstwhile enemies to forget the treasure. Surrounded by Picts/Indians, he tells them what O'Ruairc described. (Perhaps Howard might have used this 'fight for your lives' bit in other, similar stories.)
No senior moment. Not this time. Unless I'm having the same moment in the same way, which is scary.
Well, thanks for the support, Peregrine. After reading Jim's post, I thought I was in my dotage. Then again, in another post, I mentioned Black Vulmea being a 20th century character, so maybe I am in my dotage.Anyway, for my own sake, meseems I'm going to have to read "The Black Stranger" & "The Treasure of Tranicos" over again. Hell, I may as well read "Swords of the Red Brotherhood" too.
Yup, my senior moment, again. ;-)
(view spoiler) As I said before, "Treasure" is the version I'm most familiar with & like the best.
Footnote: 'The Black Stranger'From Source Acknowledgments in The Black Stranger: And Other American Tales:
"'The Black Stranger' was finally published as Howard intended in 'Echoes of Valor,' edited by Karl Edward Wagner, New York: Tor Books, 1987. The text for the story's appearance in this collection has been taken from Howard's typescript."
So there you have it. Even edited for book print, 'Black Stranger' is probably the roughest version of this story.
Ok, so I'm about to start The Black Stranger and slightly peeved to find that the version in The Complete Chronicles of Conan: Centenary Edition is not Howard's original version, as I thought, but yet another edited version. Different to Tranicos though, so we'll see how it goes!
Thats why i dont read my complete chronicles version. Im getting Del Rey collections of Conan who isnt edited version.This collection is only for newbies and tryouts. Not if you want the original stories.
It wouldn't bother me. While editors occasionally change things for the worse, generally they do it for the better. I think my 'Black Stranger' is the original & it benefited from the heavy editing DeCamp did, IMO. Remember that neither of Howard's original versions sold.
Jim wrote: "It wouldn't bother me. While editors occasionally change things for the worse, generally they do it for the better. I think my 'Black Stranger' is the original & it benefited from the heavy editi..."What you dont know complete collection is based on Grant 1970s edit that politically corrected things like black villains being big, monster like. Black Stranger is not the issue, its a minor story. Every other story in the collection is edited, not original Weird Tales version.
Remember Howard original didnt sell ? Thats no excuse for De Camp and co. Several of his best written stories was not published in his times. They want sex, action in the pulps, they didnt sell quality writing....
Howard scholars woud eat you up for saying editors change things for better. They know much more the infamous editing history of 60s,70s.
I don't mind reading edited versions as long as the story's still good, and I really enjoyed de Camp's version of "Tranicos". What I'm peeved about with the Centenary edition is that I've spent my money buying something that I want but didn't get. My fault, of course, I should have done my research before buying.I'm not sure if I can really justify spending more money on different versions of the same stories yet again (but I probably will given enough time).
I've added the Del Rey editions to the Group Bookshelf for ease of reference.
Please continue further general discussions about the pros and cons of REH originals versus edited material here.Discussion specifically concerning the versions of Stranger/Tranicos can stay in the present thread. Ta.
Sorry no more REH original, edits talk.
Mohammed wrote: "Sorry no more REH original, edits talk."Yes - more talk, just on the new thread ;-)
Mohammed wrote: "What you dont know complete collection is based on Grant 1970s edit that politically corrected things like black villains being big, monster like. Black Stranger is not the issue, its a minor story. Every other story in the collection is edited, not original Weird Tales version...."Would you care to expand on this? I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. If it is that the copy of the "Black Stranger" that I read was originally edited by Grant, I'm not sure that is true. If not, then I have no idea what you meant. Which collection? (Honestly, I'm not sure where I read it now.)
I looked back & figured out the versions you were talking about, Mohammed. Michael's version in The Complete Chronicles of Conan: Centenary Edition was edited. The version I read in The Black Stranger: And Other American Tales wasn't, as far as I know. It says it was reprinted with permission from DelRey.
Jim wrote: "I looked back & figured out the versions you were talking about, Mohammed. Michael's version in The Complete Chronicles of Conan: Centenary Edition was edited. The version I read in..."Its only Complete Chronicles that i have read are Grant edited text. Del Rey books all say they are original weird tales, other original texts.
Thats why a purist like me can buy The Black Stranger and Other American Tales without a worry. Add it to my Howard collection.
I've just finished the version of The Black Stranger in The Complete Chronicles of Conan: Centenary Edition and really enjoyed it. I'm not much bothered that we don't learn how Conan got away from the treasure room when he first found it (took one step backwards?) nor the coincidences - if you read a bit of Dickens, such things stop bothering you! In fact, the only coincidence I found really astounding was the arrival of Conan and the pirates on the scene at the same time, but there wouldn't be story without them all there, so that's OK.Pirates, demons, blood-thirsty savages, intrigue and betrayal - what's not to like? OK, now I'm onto Conan: The Treasure of Tranicos, so we'll see how that stacks up.
I've never cared for Dickens. He was paid by the word & wrote like it. It will be interesting to see how you like 'Tranicos', Michael.
Sorry, I'm a bit late posting my comments on the two versions of this story, but here goes...I loved them both!
Stranger bowled along nicely and I wasn't bothered about the minor plot holes and unlikely coincidences which others have commented upon.
This story is classic if just for the opening scene of Conan emerging from the woods with the Picts on his trail, but there's lots of other stuff, too. And, while there's plenty of gut-wrenching action and bloody mayhem, Cimmerian-style, it's Conan's scheming and plotting which is the most distinctive character trait. Confounding the stereotype, Conan isn't simply an axe-wielding barbarian!
Tranicos is the same story with a couple of rough-edges knocked off (view spoiler) and with a couple of continuity additions to tie it into the "Conan-saga".
(view spoiler)
Hijacking Howard's own metaphor, Stranger is the tale Conan tells to his comrades-at-arms around the camp fire, concentrating on action and adventure. Tranicos, then, is the fully embellished history written by the courtly scribe in "The Nemedian Chronicles," explaining how it was that Conan came to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandaled feet. Both valid, but written for different audiences.
Hi Guys and Gals,This is a follow up to the question of three versions of 'The Black Stranger' still in print.
I know we covered this book a year ago, but I just finished reading Mark Finn's biography 'Blood & Thunder: The Life & Art of Robert E Howard.' Toward the end there is a section discussing the publications of Howard's works (posthumously). Regarding 'The Black Stranger' author Mark Finn writes (p 236):
" The most famous of these 'posthumous collaborations' was 'The Black Stranger,' an unsold Conan story that Robert rewrote as a Black Vulmea story, 'Swords of the Red Brotherhood.' De Camp took this rewrite and rewrote it *again*, turning it into 'The Treasure of Tranicos.' Of this work, de Camp said, 'Robert E. Howard's heroes were mostly cut from the same cloth. It was mostly a matter of changing names, eliminating gunpowder, and dragging in a supernatural element."
If you haven't read 'Blood & Thunder' yet, I recommend it very highly.
Next on my list is Novalyne Price's memoir of REH, 'One Who Walked Alone.' Has anyone read it? (I just learned about it this week.)
Thanks,
P.
I've read all the various versions of "The Black Stranger." Of course, the original REH Conan story in The Conquering Sword of Conan; REH's rewrite as "Swords of the Red Brotherhood" in Black Vulmea's Vengeance (which I just finished reading this morning); De Camp's rewrite of the Vulmea story in King Conan as "The Treasure of Tranicos"; and De Camp's revision of "The Treasure of Tranicos", found in Conan: Conan the Usurper; this version is less heavily edited than the version in "King Conan." So there are actually four substantially different versions of the story (not counting minor edits, such as in the Grant and other versions, which I have also read; also not including the Marvel Comics adaptation, which I have also read).
Apparently I need to read something else. :)
I read this one recently and enjoyed it although it's not my favorite Conan story and does nothing to broaden the character of Conan. I had no idea there were so many versions of this story until I read this discussion thread. I'll have to track down some of the other versions. I read the original version (I believe) which is included in the collection The Conquering Sword of Conan.
In my opinion, that's the best version - and it is indeed the original version. Definitely not a great Conan story, but it works for me. I enjoy it nonetheless.
I for one really liked this story. I read it in the Del Rey while I was discovering Conan and went back to it once I had read a lot more Howard stories in other genres. There are a few Conan tales that are not widely loved that struck me. The "Servants of Bit-Yakin" is one, as well are "Iron Shadows in the Moon" and "The Black Stranger". I like the setting, about the same as "Beyond the Black River". The first chapter really draws you in. And then we move away from Conan. But I find the story with the two girls and the two pirate factions very intriguing. And by the time Conan comes back in, he makes such an impression it feels like if it would be made into a movie the screen would just explode. And then all hell breaks loose.
The Picts invading the fort reminds me of "Wolfhead" or "The Gods of Bal-Sagoth", a real scene of apocalyse with fire and death and the world crumbling all around.
My only problem with the story is the whipping scene. I think Howard cranked this one way too intensely. I see what he's trying to do, to show us how afraid te count is, but still, it's over the top and so sudden that it just makes the reader feel bad. It might even be because of this scene that Wright refused the story. I wish we knew more about it's submission history. Why did Howard rewrite it as a straight pirate tale instead of reworking it to have it accepted by Weird Tales? Maybe by this point he was already tired of not being paid and thought of trying to break other magazines...
I liked it too for all the action. Howard really kept it moving at a brisk pace and there were a LOT (maybe too many?) of story elements mixed together. You're right, it would make a good movie plot. The whipping scene seemed like an attempt at cheap titillation, par for the course with pulp magazines of the era.
L. Sprague de Camp wrote an article called "The Trail of Tranicos," which can be found in The Conan Reader and reprinted again in The Spell of Conan that details a lot of the rewrites of the story.The pirate version was submitted to Golden Fleece but I don't know if there is a known reason why he chose to rewrite it as a straight pirate tale. Probably didn't want to send a Conan story to another magazine.
Patrice Louinet says in "Hyborian Genesis Part III" that Black Stranger contains a lot of autobiographical elements (page 377 of The Conquering Sword of Conan), as well as ties to The Scarlet Letter.
I would LOVE to see Estaban Maroto's art for Conan: The Treasure of Tranicos reprinted for a new version of "The Black Stranger" (as REH wrote it, not as de Camp changed it).
"The Black Stranger" is one of the best REH's Conan I ever readed! Way better than the distorted LSDCs version!
There is definitely something spare & raw about REH's writing that deCamp & Carter never matched. Few have, although Karl Edward Wagner comes close. However, I liked the way the pair rewrote it into Conan's timeline. Their first efforts at that were far better than the later efforts which added some real crap. I realize that's a minority opinion here where original REH rules, but I also like their completion of the Kull stories far better than the original fragments. I guess I'm more of a completist & I also have a thing for chronology. I helped Jared with the chronology & list of stories for Centipede Press' 5 books of KEW's Kane. I've also gone to a lot of trouble assembling & updating the complete chronologies for Modesitt's Recluse & Connolly's Harry Bosch universe. Both include the books & short stories. Judging by the community help I had on the last project, I'm not the only one.
Vincent wrote: "...Patrice Louinet says in "Hyborian Genesis Part III" that Black Stranger contains a lot of autobiographical elements (page 377 of The Conquering Sword of Conan), as well as ties to The Scarlet Letter...."I'm reading Conquering Sword right now so I'll get to this part. I really enjoyed the "Hyborean Genesis" sections of the previous two collections.
RJ - Slayer of Trolls wrote: "I'm reading Conquering Sword right now so I'll get to this part. I really enjoyed the "Hyborean Genesis" sections of the previous two collections."I did too. I think Patrice Louinet is amazing at analyzing REH. I have a copy of his The Robert E. Howard Guide but haven't had a chance to really read it yet, just been using it as reference when re-reading certain REH stories.
Vincent wrote: "...I think Patrice Louinet is amazing at analyzing REH. I have a copy of his The Robert E. Howard Guide..."I hadn't heard of that but I'll be on the lookout for a copy.
Robert E. Howard Readers
Books mentioned in this topic
The Robert E. Howard Guide (other topics)The Conan Reader (other topics)
Treasure Of Tranicos (other topics)
The Spell of Conan (other topics)
The Conquering Sword of Conan (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Karl Edward Wagner (other topics)Robert E. Howard (other topics)
The Black Stranger is Robert E. Howard's original story, which I haven't read before so I'm looking for to doing so. I've read Tranicos, which was edited by de Camp and which I enjoyed. It should be interesting to consider the differences between the two versions.