Classics and the Western Canon discussion
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Planning for Fall 2011 read
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Everyman
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Jul 22, 2011 06:02PM
I have posted a reading schedule for The Republic in case people want to get started. Sorry for formatting, it didn't show up that way in the preview, but . . .
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Amanda wrote: "Well I voted for the Proust. I own the whole bloody thing and the only way I'm EVER going to crack those spines is with a group to which I have to be accountable. Stupid library book sales."
Admittedly, if we do choose to read it, I will definitely fall behind because I'm a notorious slacker like that.
But I'm definitely going to try to beat my horrendous record lol
I might be persuaded to go with Proust, but I don't want to read the whole thing at once. I'd only want to read Swann's Way, saving the other volumes for a later time. How do the other Proust voters feel about it?
Amanda wrote: "Well I voted for the Proust. I own the whole bloody thing and the only way I'm EVER going to crack those spines is with a group to which I have to be accountable.
Stupid library book sales."
Yes!
Stupid library book sales."
Yes!
I voted for Dostoevsky, as I really enjoyed the two I've read so far, The Idiot and Notes from Underground. The Adolescent is the next of his on my TBR list. But the Proust would have come a close second. I actually began Swann's Way in French a few years ago, but never finished it, so I'll look forward to reacquainting myself with it if it does win.
I would want to start with Swann's Way as well.
Kristen wrote: "I would want to start with Swann's Way as well."If Proust comes out as our selection, I'll hold a secondary poll. I'm thinking of offering three choices.
1. I prefer reading Swann's Way now, then putting the next volume on the bookshelf and when it comes up we can vote on whether to read it.
2. I prefer reading all six volumes straight throug.
3. I prefer reading all six volumes, but interspersing them with other works, either one or two other books between each volume of Proust.
4. I prefer reading Swann's way and about halfway through holding a vote to decide whether to go on to the next volume or choose something else.
Keeping in mind that this is all meaningless if Proust doesn't come out on top, if it does are those good choices? Are there other ones we should consider?
The choices look good. They cover every option, as far as reading Swann's Way/In Search of Lost Time.
I think better at giving you a taste of Proust is just Un Amour de Swann/Swann's Love on its own, not the whole of Du côté de chez Swann/Swann's Way. Un Amour de Swann is a novel within a novel, it's self-contained (whereas in Swann's Way the ending in open/indecisive), narrated by a third person not first person narrator (so there's also considerably less flow of consciousness and commas) and there are a lot more things going on than in Combray and Nom de pays : le nom (the other two parts of Du côté de chez Swann). But it's also quite long (around 200 pages if I remember it well) and there's plenty to talk about in it.
Another idea with a slight twist on what you already have as choices w/r/t tackling In Search of Lost Time would be to automatically add Vol. 2 into the next poll (rather than add it to the bookshelf and then wait for it to come up randomly -- maybe even add it, and then each subsequent volume, as a choice in every poll going forward). Those who wanted to continue on immediately could then always have that option while those who wanted a break after volume 1, 2, 3, etc could vote to bail out without necessarily giving up on it altogether (i.e., they could vote for a break and know that the next volume would be an option in the next poll).
I don't want to commit myself to possibly reading the whole thing now (my pref. is Everyman's #3), so I'm going to vote for something else.
I recognize that there is no solution that will be everybody's preferred choice. I just hope that good feelings remain central no matter what the outcome, and that people find whatever book the group chooses, and the ensuing discussion, of interest and value.
Everyman wrote: "I recognize that there is no solution that will be everybody's preferred choice. I just hope that good feelings remain central no matter what the outcome, and that people find whatever book the group chooses, and the ensuing discussion, of interest and value. "Well, we can't really go wrong with this list, I think.
Everyman wrote: "Kristen wrote: "I would want to start with Swann's Way as well."If Proust comes out as our selection, I'll hold a secondary poll. I'm thinking of offering three choices.
1. I prefer reading S..."
I think those choices are fine.
Do check the polls before they close and see if they match your druthers or if you want to change or add your vote!
I'm not voting this time (or the last few times) because I haven't participated actively since Canterbury Tales. But if it were possible, I would vote for at least 5 of these. So many good choices in this bunch!
Any one worried about Franklin's autobiography need only remember that he was a philosopher among all of his many other accomplishments. His autobiography contains quite a bit of philosophy, including his personal plan for acquiring what he considered the essential character traits of a good man. It is a fun, informative, and entertaining read--and quite short.My preference, I think is Democracy in America, as I have only read excerpts. But like Mike, I haven't been consistent enough in sticking with the discussion to feel entitled to a vote.
BTW--The Reader's Review group just started Hunchback of Notre Dame on the 15th.
Gayle wrote: "like Mike, I haven't been consistent enough in sticking with the discussion to feel entitled to a vote."I appreciate your and Mike's concern, past performance isn't the issue. People are welcome to vote for a book if they intend, if that book is chosen to participate in the discussion. Of course we hope every member will participate in the discussions of whatever book is chosen, but there are some books that don't appeal to certain members, and we fully understand that. The only expectation is that if you vote for a book and it wins, you will intend to participate in that discussion.
If I understand correctly, the poll will close any moment now. Last chance to change your vote people...
Ibis3 wrote: "Will there be a run-off poll?"With only one vote separating the top two choices, I think yes. So I'll set it up pronto. It'll run it through Friday night -- maybe a fairly short period, but if Proust wins we'll have to have another poll on that, so let's get on with it.
So. In a few minutes you'll be able to start the voting on the final choice.
The run-off poll is neck and neck. If you haven't voted yet, you only have a few days to chime in!
Okay, Proust it is. I've put up the "How much of Proust shall we read?" poll with choices slightly modified from what I had originally suggested, but which I think will work as choices. I decided to omit the option of voting half-way through Swann's Way because it would not allow enough time to select a successor book if we wanted to go that way. Instead, I modified the first choice to include the next volume of Proust in the next poll so the choice can be made that way for people who don't want to commit to it all now but want to keep the option of continuing to read him open. But I know there are also people who think we should go ahead and commit to the whole work.I realize that given two "flavors" of reading all six books that vote may be split, but I note that people can change their votes as the poll goes on, so keep an eye on it and if you're in favor of committing now but your choice of which way to do it is behind, you have the option of throwing your vote the other way. Does that make sense?
Anyhow, there's no perfect way to do this, so I just did my best!
The final poll is done, and the decision was actually a majority. We're reading Swann's Way, then the next book will go on the poll for the following reading and we'll see whether people want to vote to go on with Proust or move to something else.Whew! It was a longer than usual voting process, but we have resolution.
When are we starting this again? I wanted to make sure I was prepared, so I took it out from the library. Anyone have any thoughts on this edition/translation: Swann's Way?(Also, on a related note, and not to apply pressure, but I was also wondering about Decline & Fall as a side read. Are we still doing that or is it pushed back until winter (or cancelled)? I think I might have to buy that one, because apparently the library doesn't have a copy...I say apparently because I was pretty sure they have a set of Great Books at another branch but it's not coming up on the library catalogue.)
Ibis3 wrote: "When are we starting this [Swann's Way]?"At this point, the Republic discussion is scheduled to go through October 18, though we may decide to extend it. Then there will be an Interim Read of usually two but occasionally three weeks, depending on the work chosen (slightly longer ones or ones that I think deserve more time, like a Greek or Shakespearean tragedy, may get three weeks). So the soonest we will be starting Swann's Way would be November 2, and it might be a week or two later than that, but probably no later than November 16.
Everyman wrote: "Ibis3 wrote: "When are we starting this [Swann's Way]?"At this point, the Republic discussion is scheduled to go through October 18, though we may decide to extend it. Then there will be an Inte..."
Okay, thanks. I guess I was preparing a little too early.:) I'll return the book to the library for now.
Ibis3 wrote: "(Also, on a related note, and not to apply pressure, but I was also wondering about Decline & Fall as a side read. Are we still doing that or is it pushed back until winter (or cancelled)? "If there's interest, it's still on. I think we need to wait until after Plato, since that's an all-absorbing book, at least for me, but once that's done we can add in D&F if people want to.
You can buy it, or it's available on the Internet from Google Books, Gutenberg, and several other places. There are Kindle editions available from Amazon for free, but I don't know how good they are. There are several well reviewed editions quite cheap, but again I don't know about them.
In order to get it onto the home page as the next read, I'm going to temporarily set the start date for Swann's Way at November 2nd. That may change, but it will get it up there for now. Is there anybody who would like to delve particularly deeply into this for us and lead the discussion? I know almost nothing about Proust, so anybody with some knowledge and sufficient interest would be a good candidate to moderate or co-moderate. Don't be shy or hid your light under a basket! If this fits you, step forward!
For Swann's Way, I am thinking maybe 8 weeks for the reading: three weeks for Part 1, four weeks for Part 2, one week for the fairly short Part 3. How does that sound to people? Too quick? Too spread out? I want to leave enough time for discussion, for maybe a touch of re-reading here and there, but not make it so long that people lose focus and interest. Thoughts?
Everyman wrote: "For Swann's Way, I am thinking maybe 8 weeks for the reading: three weeks for Part 1, four weeks for Part 2, one week for the fairly short Part 3. How does that sound to people? Too quick? Too ..."I wouldn't make it any longer than eight weeks.
Everyman wrote: "For Swann's Way, I am thinking maybe 8 weeks for the reading: three weeks for Part 1, four weeks for Part 2, one week for the fairly short Part 3. How does that sound to people? Too quick? Too ..."Actually, I'm thinking you may want to stretch it out at the end a bit, because that will be the week just before Christmas when people tend to be quite distracted as it is. Maybe give people a bit of extra time to keep up if they need it? Just a thought.
Ibis3 wrote: "Actually, I'm thinking you may want to stretch it out at the end a bit, because that will be the week just before Christmas when people tend to be quite distracted as it is. Maybe give people a bit of extra time to keep up if they need it? Just a thought...."
Yes, that makes sense. Maybe extend the read thru the first week of January for wrapping up the discussion.
Also, the holidays will present us with a chance for remembrance of holidays past. Perhaps, while dipping a pfefferneuese (sp?) into a cup of hot chocolate, I'll remember my childhood in Passaic, and beautiful blond Lisa K... (wink)
Jim wrote: "Ibis3 wrote: "Actually, I'm thinking you may want to stretch it out at the end a bit, because that will be the week just before Christmas when people tend to be quite distracted as it is. Maybe giv..."Good points, Ibis and Jim.
Laurele wrote: "Jim wrote: "Ibis3 wrote: "Actually, I'm thinking you may want to stretch it out at the end a bit, because that will be the week just before Christmas when people tend to be quite distracted as it i..."Sounds good. Laurel, and others who know the work, what sections would benefit from a bit more time? If I add a week or two, where should I add them?
I'm glad we're not starting Proust til the 9th. I only just got round to ordering the book from amazon. (I bought a copy of A la recherche du temps perdu, tome 2 : A l'ombre des jeunes filles en fleurs as well while I was at it)
Everyman wrote: "Laurele wrote: "Jim wrote: "Ibis3 wrote: "Actually, I'm thinking you may want to stretch it out at the end a bit, because that will be the week just before Christmas when people tend to be quite di..."I'm a little over halfway through, and I'm not sure that any one part needs more time than any other. It is easy reading, and very musical. Perhaps do some stretching around Thanksgiving and Christmas. This is the sort of book I could read over and over again, like poetry. I have the old Mandeville translation, and it reads just fine for me. If you can get any of it in audio, be sure to do so.
Patrice wrote: "I'm a little confused. I still have my college copy of Combray. I thought I'd read Swann's Way. Is it the same book? My copy is in French. I can't believe I was able to read it but I have the ..."Based on my translation, it appears that Combray is the first part (of three parts) of Swann's Way, the second and third parts being Swann in Love and Place-Names (which is shorter than the first two).
(In the Gutenberg on-line translation, there is a brief Overture also, which in my Modern Library edition is simply the first part of Combray.)
I have a question: is the plan just to break it up into the three sections and give several weeks for each, or will it be further divided into (e.g.) weekly readings?
Ibis3 wrote: "I have a question: is the plan just to break it up into the three sections and give several weeks for each, or will it be further divided into (e.g.) weekly readings?"I'm going to divide it into weekly readings, which is our norm, IF I can find a way to do it. At first glance, my copy doesn't seem to have chapter divisions, but I'll look further.
Everyman wrote: "At first glance, my copy doesn't seem to have chapter divisions, but I'll look further..."My Moncrieff translation has the three parts you name plus the separate "Overture". My Davis translation has the three parts you name. Davis calls them "Parts", Moncrieff simply lists each on the contents page, as if chapter headings.
Lily wrote: "Everyman wrote: "At first glance, my copy doesn't seem to have chapter divisions, but I'll look further..."My Moncrieff translation has the three parts you name plus the separate "Overture". My ..."
Beyond that, there do not seem to be any chapter divisions. It just goes on and on and on.
Two thoughts I had on scheduling Proust, which is becoming a puzzle for me!The first question is, would 6 weeks be too short a period for the discussion? That would be a bit brisker than our usual pace, but it's a nice quiet time of year for reading. That would bring the discussion to a close on December 20. We would then have a light intermediate read and start our next book on January 4.
If we did this, that addresses the second question of how to break up the discussion into one week blocks. If we went for six weeks, I wouldn't try to break up the sections, but would either schedule it 2-2-2 (or maybe 3-2-1) for the three parts.
The alternative, if we are to avoid a formal discussion period over the central holiday weeks, would be to schedule five or six weeks up to December 13th or 20th, break for two or three weeks, then pick up the last two or three weeks of discussion in January.
Frankly, I am leaning fairly heavily toward the six week schedule, because it seems much neater, and I think it would be harder to pick up a serious discussion after a holiday break -- and of course those who wanted to keep discussing the book at the end of the six weeks would be free to keep doing so, since all our discussions stay open.
However, I don't want to make a final decision without anybody who feels that six weeks is really too short a period for reading and discussing the book to have a chance to make their case. So the situation is this: if any members feel strongly that six weeks is not a reasonable time to give to Proust (with the discussion staying open after that), make your case here, and if it looks as though that is a supported position, I'll put it to a quick vote. Otherwise, if nobody wants to set up an "Occupy Western Canon" camp over this issue, I'll set the discussion for six weeks starting November 9th.
Everyman wrote: "Otherwise, if nobody wants to set up an "Occupy Western Canon" camp over this issue..."I have my sign ready: We Are the 1%.
I think trying for six weeks is a good idea, we can always add more time if it is really necessary. From my memory of reading (or should I say attempting - I got maybe most of the way through Combray. I certainly never made it as far as Swann in Love) Proust, it isn't very heavy going, just terribly long.
but I defer to those who have read the whole book
I don't know if I will be able to participate. I am going to give it the old college try, but only if the book holds my interest. If I am ever to read this book, it will have to be with a group such as this one. With that caveat, I would rather the 6 week option. The longer it drags out, the more likely I've moved on to other reading obligations.
The hardcover edition I have is one I got from a used book store for $1.
Modern Library
The translation is by C.K. Scott Moncrieff
I'd be interested in hearing from those who have read the book (in part or whole) what they got out of it. It would help me decide whether to join the group read.
The book is a joy to read and savor, and the Madeleines are delicious with tea, but I'm not sure there is a lot to talk about. Reading this book seems to me to be a solitary experience. I vote for six weeks, since that would solve two problems.
Laurele wrote: "... but I'm not sure there is a lot to talk about. Reading this book seems to me to be a solitary experience. ..."So much for a group read. ;)
Nemo wrote: "Laurele wrote: "... but I'm not sure there is a lot to talk about. Reading this book seems to me to be a solitary experience. ..."So much for a group read. ;)"
We'll have things to talk about, but if we string it out for too long, conversation will likely be sparse.
Classics and the Western Canon
Books mentioned in this topic
À l'ombre des jeunes filles en fleurs (other topics)Swann's Way (other topics)
Swann’s Way (other topics)
Swann in Love, Volume 1 (other topics)
Un amour de Swann de Marcel Proust (other topics)
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