Last Sacrifice
discussion
Really?! How stupid is he!!!???
Wow. Are we really discussing this? Really? We're actually justifying Rose's behavior? She cheated on her boyfriend. It's fact, not an opinion.
She doesn't feel emotional grief for extended periods of time. Fact. Mason anyone? How many times is his name mentioned past Frostbite? He was her best male friend for how many years?
Spirit drove Lissa insane. Fact.
Lissa takes anti-depressants. Fact. Look up the effects. Major depression is serious shit.
Spirit drove Rose's teacher insane. Fact.
Rose witnessed both of them go insane. Fact.
Adrian drinks and smokes so that he doesn't go insane. Fact.
Rose chastises Adrian for this. Fact.
Yet, Rose is somehow in the right?
You can like Rose, but jeesh, don't say she's in the right. She's a horrible little manipulating dhampir who considers no one except for Dimitri in any of her plans. Dimitri isn't much better. Whether or not you view the facts above as good or bad is up to you. But they're all facts, not opinions.
ETA: You guys are doing some serious victim blaming and I wish you'd stop. The only thing Adrian did wrong was trust Rose. And lets say that he loves her as much as Dimitri does. Give the dude some slack. He trusted her and he should get blamed for it? No. That isn't right.
It's pretty obvious she can't handle opinions very well (LOL, saying I misunderstood because I disagreed- says how much she can tolerate) and resorted to personal attacks to make herself feel better as well as acting passive aggressive. I abhor passive aggressiveness and if she continues to act like that I have no need to discuss with her- especially with her knack to twist it around and make stupid assumptions. Don't like it? Don't comment. I was fine with replying and debating before she decided to pick a fight and then act like it was my fault.
★ Kimi ★ wrote: "He should not have given her the money and he should not have gotten into a relationship with someone so confused who was going through so much."
QFT.
This is called victim blaming. Adrian said that he would give Rose time. Rose said she had enough time. Rose was the one who initiated the relationship after Adrian propositioned her. They are both mentally unstable. Adrian moreso than Rose.
Spirit drove Rose's teacher to become strigoi, the worst decision anyone can make in that universe. And it's his fault for seeking out a relationship with someone who could understand? Huh?
If Rose is such a good person as you argue her to be, then he wouldn't have been "stupid" for trusting her. Obviously trusting her wasn't the best idea because she's dishonest and manipulative, but that doesn't make him dumb. He unfortunately fell in love with someone that didn't appreciate him.
★ Kimi ★ wrote: "You misunderstood... I called you little girl... many other things such as rude. You think that I'm rude? No I respect everyone's opinion and I don't call people idiots or ignorant if they don't ag..."
Maybe Rose shouldn't have told him she was ready and kept him around because he was useful then, hm?
Maybe Rose shouldn't have told him she was ready and kept him around because he was useful then, hm?
Cory wrote: "Wow. Are we really discussing this? Really? We're actually justifying Rose's behavior? She cheated on her boyfriend. It's fact, not an opinion.
She doesn't feel emotional grief for extended peri..."
Preach it
Jasmine wrote: "I do not believe that Adrian is stupid or naive. I mean, when your in love with someone, there should be trust, and I truly believe that he trusted Rose when he let her go with Dimitri. And I reall..."I agree with you. All relationships need trust, and to blame Adrian for giving Rose that trust is a bit cruel, to say the least. What was he supposed to do, say "No woman, you can't go! Me tellz you what to do, so get back in that kitchen!"? I don't think so.
This is an interesting conversation you've got going on here. I think it's great that you all have opinions and are willing to talk about them. Kudos.I didn't want to get sucked into another GR debate about this series, because, holy crap, it's just not worth it. But I've got nothing better to do right now. So yeah...
I guess it all depends on what you personally think is worse: smoking/drinking. Or selfish, lying, manipulative behavior. Let's not forget about the cheating. Because it's there. It totally happened.
I don't care for any of the things I listed above. All of those things are habits/addictions/behaviors I abhor.
That said I'm able to give Adrian a Get Out of Jail Free card because in the VA universe smoking and drinking don't cause cancer or failed livers to the characters not to mention the fact that Adrian never acted erratic, violent or neglectful while under the influence of alcohol and tobacco. Let's not forget, in Adrian's specific case, these things actually helped rather then hurt I'm able to shrug it off. (yo
Never once in the VA universe is lying and cheating and selfishness ever considered okay behavior. If it had been, if the culture was such that such behavior was not only normal but full-on expected, then yeah, I'd totally be willing to give Rose a free pass. Seriously--I've read books in which such behavior was totally acceptable so I climbed on board and enjoyed the ride.
The behavior Rose exhibited was that of a sociopath. Regardless of her intentions, most, if not all, of what she did was wrong. And anyway, what makes Rose so special that she shouldn't have to lose someone she "loves"? Everyone around her experienced loss--sometimes as a direct result of Rose's actions. Yet she's the one who gets to do whatever to whomever in the name of "true love". Who does she think she is?
And anyway, why are so many people here okay with Rose's behavior? Is this a generational thing? What's going on here?
Penny, I completely agree with everything that you said. It's blatant that they glorify Rose's actions and make her emotional blackmail seem like a casual thing and then vilify Adrian's vices, thinking that the only problem that the major reason for disliking Rose is because she cheated on him. Had they even read the comments, they should have realised that it's not just that. It's how Rose is selfish and uses everyone like some sort of tampon before discarding them. All I want to ask is, when has Adrian done alot of bad things? Because from the looks of it they have nothing to argue so they use his smoking/drinking habits and the fact that it was his fault that he got cheated on.
The victim blaming going on here and justifying Rose's actions is really vile and avoiding half the points that do show that Rose is a selfish, inconsiderate bitch- Lissa reluctantly wanted to save Dimitri's life as Rose guilt tripped her into thinking that of she didn't then Rose would leave. Eddie hated how she couldn't stake Dimitri- her hesitation got them in trouble and called her out for her lack of remorse and risking others for her selfish deeds. Let's not forget that as soon as Dimitri turned back into a Strigoi, she immediately wanted to rekindle their romance by trying to force herself into him and wanted him to love her back. She couldn't even give him space and time seeing as he went through a traumatic ordeal just because she wanted to get her freak on. Rosr says that she is remorseful but does she express it? No. There's a difference between showing and telling.
Let’s try this again. Do I think that Rose didn’t do a horrible thing by cheating Adrian. No. Like I said, she had been cheating him in her mind way before the actual act, and that in my book is cheating as well.
Do I think that Rose didn’t use Adrian, along with many of her friends to achieve her goals? No. She used him in many cases clearly, the worst one being becoming his girlfriend in order to get over Dimitri.
Do I think, as person, that smoking a drinking is wrong? I’d better not, considering the amount of cigarettes that I smoke and the beer that I drink.
Why did I bring it up then? Because people were saying Rose was pushy about him quitting for no reason, apart from the fact that she can’t stand weakness. Leah mentions that since Adrian was Moroi, his body was rejecting alcohol much faster than it does in real life. I agree that he has never been abusive, but I don’t agree that it doesn’t affect the people that care about him. He still has to drink the night away and because of it, he doesn’t have any purpose or goals in life. I agree that it is a fact that Lissa was cutting herserlf, Sonya went crazy and Victor’s brother became a shell of a man because of the spirit. But I think its unfair blaming Rose for wanting Adrian to take it easy on the bottle. Being with a man that can’t stand straight just isn’t something that doesn’t affect and pains you. Wanting to see him stronger than that, is something that I can understand. Adrian let himself go numb with the alcohol without trying to find a balance, one that wouldn’t make him insane from the spirit, but wouldn’t limit himself by alcoholism either.
I’ve already made a post regarding my views of Adrian being a victim or not, there’s no need repeating the same thing. I have also made a post about the things that Rose did and were of extremely poor judgment.
The point of my posts isn’t to take the blame off Rose where it is due, nor is it to place the blame on Adrian, but I believe that I am giving the guy credit by not considering him a victim.
I don't understand that part— she often gets scared of him because of the madness of spirit (caliing him crazy on multiple occasions) yet prohibits him from drinking alcohol/cigarettes The only person it affected was Rose, Lissa didn't chastise him for his drinking and he spent a lot of time with her learning more about spirit, nor did his mother or father. His father disliked him for not being what he wanted Adrian wanted to be which was immersing himself in politics. Adrian doesn't like to get involved in Moroi politics so why force someone into a mold that they do not want to fit in? I wouldn't force someone to get involved in something they don't like because you know they'd do it half-halfheartedly which is a normal reaction. Had someone forced me to take maths as a future career, I would hate it because I loathe maths and I am not good at it- that's the concept that I'm talking about. I really hate that because he has no work ethic means that he is not good enough. Adrian has plenty of money from the looks of it, I doubt anyone who was rolling in cash would want to/continue to work— if anybody had won £10 million or some huge number of money, I'd think finding work would be the last thing on their mind. But on various occasions, we do seeing him doing stuff for other people like healing them with spirit— he isn't lazy just because Rose says so. There are plenty of moments where he isn't selfish and constantly looks out for others despite his limitations. Just because she's the heroine, I don't lap up everything she says but rather I look at the broader picture.
Adrian let himself go numb with the alcohol without trying to find a balance, one that wouldn’t make him insane from the spirit, but wouldn’t limit himself by alcoholism either.
That's the thing, there is no real balance unless he has a shadow-kissed partner and they share it out but he doesn't. Pills limit his powers and his powers is something that he wants to learn about but alcohol numbs the effects and he is still able to use his powers. Alcoholism doesn't affect him because Moroi rarely get affected by diseases or ailments unless it is genetic— like Victor— that's the trait both Dhampirs and Alchemists have due to Moroi blood. It's either one of the other, Spirit is something that can deteriorate someone mentally, so any option that could stop that comes along with many side effects. It's not a one shot/happily ever after pill that fixes everything. What I'm trying to say his vices aren't him doing bad things— since when has his alcoholism got anything to do with the fact he got cheated on? Or used? No, because they are two different situations. And it's not a valid excuse.
Wanting to see him stronger than that, is something that I can understand
Using that excuse against him when he confronted her for cheating was beyond wrong. It shows that she was blaming him for the fact that she cheated on him because she saw him as weak. Rose doesn't seem to know that strength isn't limited just to physical, mental strength is a lot more powerful than brawn and I believe Adrian is mentally strong— Rose took him for granted because he didn't have some sort of kill score like guardians did. She always sees various people as weaknesses. In the first 4 chapters of Bloodlines, she doesn't think Sydney is good enough to protect Jill, she saw Lissa for the fact that she had to live a life without any freedom yet she chose to be guardian? I don't understand her at all. She doesn't take responsibility but finds others to blame for her consequences.
But Leah, I never said that his alcoholism has anything to do with Rose's cheating. I don't think that they are connected in any way, I just mentioned it for the remarks that Rose was being pushy towards him no for reason. I agree that Adrian shouldn't get involved in Moroi politics since he didn't want to, of course not.And I agree that he is not a selfish person, I never claimed that he was, on the contrary I find him to be very caring of others.But a purpose in life doesn't have to do with work exclusively, even though I disagree that rich people don't feel the need to work, or at least, create.
I too believe that Adrian is mentally strong, and that's one of the reasons I find reason behind Rose's effort to make him cut on the booze. I saw him suffering from withdrawal in one of the books, but we don't really know how he could be if he brought the amount of alcohol down. I saw Lissa being irritated with Adrian's drunken state a few times, but I don't think that because she or his parents didn't really mind, Rose shouldn't try doing something about it either.
You already know my opinion on Rose about how she treated Sydney, you know I agree on that one with you.
I haven't read the first chapters on Bloodlines, I will get back to you on that one once I do.
I just don't understand why people will crucify someone who drink and smokes (and is of age) but it's A-ok to cheat, lie, use, and watch people be killed in front of you without doing something about it. Spirit is damaging to the psyche, look what it did to Lissa and Sonia.
That wasn't aimed at you, I meant that generally because people seem to think it's a valid enough reason to be cheated on because it was HIS fault. No, that's enough to make some one gag at how disgusting the remark is. People smoke. People drink. People smoke weed and take other drugs but I've seen some that actually do have functional relationships because it works. I've had enough of people being so insensitive towards people who are alcoholics- look at the awful things people have said about Amy Winehouse and how her death was awful when people do not know that alcoholism is serious at times. He does have a purpose, look at his new story arc in Bloodlines- he is proactive in protecting Jill and getting involved with the alchemists. It's a purpose no matter how big or small.
I don't know why people gave him the title of alcoholic- because he drinks a lot but it doesn't mean he is an alcoholic for sure because he has to binge drink and he didn't appear to be binge drinking all the time, to be honest. I think it's one thing being annoyed by it but another to say that his drinking makes him weak and demean him for it. Rose does the latter but if you were to love someone, you love them for them not for what they could be by playing the mother role. It isn't right.
Read it, it shows how ignorantly she treated Sydney and her not so sincere apology.
Jasmine wrote: "Mello wrote: "Jasmine wrote: "I do not believe that Adrian is stupid or naive. I mean, when your in love with someone, there should be trust, and I truly believe that he trusted Rose when he let he..."
She's been braindead this whole series with the choices she has made and what her priorities were.
She's been braindead this whole series with the choices she has made and what her priorities were.
i think adrian is so so so fricking sweet..and so love blinded by rose i really love his character and i hope that he eventually does find someone cos he really does deserve it ..at least rose gave him a chance and went out with him for a while :D
... "If you really love someone, let them go", I think Adrian stumbled upon this quote and decided to do just that :D I'm glad though, Adrian deserve someone who truly love him for who he is. *cough* ME *cough*HAHAHA, team Adrian right here XD
haha..YOU.. dont you mean me? ;)
if rose can have dimitri then i definetly want adrian x
Lian wrote: "if rose can have dimitri then i definetly want adrian x"
Ugh those two jerks can have each other lol Adrian is so much better off without her trifling ways
Ugh those two jerks can have each other lol Adrian is so much better off without her trifling ways
I definitely think that they are both better off without each other. Adrian, especially! Rose and Dimitri are right for each other and I want Adrian to be with someone worthy of all his specialness and to appreciate him. I wonder if he might bring Sydney back to life and then they would have a bond...
Stormy [S♥J] wrote: "I definitely think that they are both better off without each other. Adrian, especially! Rose and Dimitri are right for each other and I want Adrian to be with someone worthy of all his specialness..."That would be awesome! Wouldn't it... I could totally see that happening. =)
Adrian is NOT an idiot! Adrian knew what he was getting himself into when he started the relationship with Rose, He knew she was still in love with Dimitri and all he wanted her to do was to give him a chance. Adrian is not stupid he already knew the out come of this and i think he jus didnt expect his and Rose's relationship to play out like it did. Adrian loved Rose so much that he knew that only Dimitri could protect her so thats why he allowed Rose to go and she was going to go anywhere Dimitri went anyway! Adrian loved her and i respect him for everything he did and went through! ADRIAN FOREVER :)
★ Kimi ★ wrote: "Stormy [S♥J] wrote: "I definitely think that they are both better off without each other. Adrian, especially! Rose and Dimitri are right for each other and I want Adrian to be with someone worthy o..."Ha ha. That would freak me out if my prediction came true. I swear I would just scream for hours! Its really possible which is kind of giving me heart palpitations right now...lol It would be super romantic but I'm not sure that Sydney would be grateful for it with her upbringing and all. All the spirit users that have ever done it that were mentioned in VA never brought a Human back. It was always a Dhampir so it would be very interesting and exciting.
Stormy [S♥J] wrote: "★ Kimi ★ wrote: "Stormy [S♥J] wrote: "I definitely think that they are both better off without each other. Adrian, especially! Rose and Dimitri are right for each other and I want Adrian to be with..."Hahaha you're so funny! I'd be really happy for Adrian. I'd love for him to be happy with someone. But I wonder how that would work? Do you think she could handle the spirit and do you think she'd go crazy because of the ghosts? I never saw that coming when everyone was talking about Adrian and Sydney.
★ Kimi ★ wrote: "Stormy [S♥J] wrote: "★ Kimi ★ wrote: "Stormy [S♥J] wrote: "I definitely think that they are both better off without each other. Adrian, especially! Rose and Dimitri are right for each other and I w..."I think that the ghosts would definitely freak her out. I don't know if she could handle it but I think that Adrian would be there to help her and comfort her. He saw what happened between Lissa and Rose, I mean, he helped them realize what was going on with the madness transferring to Rose. so, I have no doubt that he would be able to take care of her if she is trusting enough or at least help her to see what she has to do with it all. I think that the madness would give her an edge though. I mean, think of what it would do to that polite, quiet girl...I hope she develops some kind of fierceness to keep this all interesting.
The main thing that I am worried about with their relationship is Sydney's view of vampires with her upbringing. I don't want her to use that against Adrian if he has feelings for her but I'm pretty sure that this will happen. :( I hate it when anyone hurts Adrian's feelings and it would be much worst if they tried to hurt his wonderful body. ha ha
Stormy [S♥J] wrote: "★ Kimi ★ wrote: "Stormy [S♥J] wrote: "★ Kimi ★ wrote: "Stormy [S♥J] wrote: "I definitely think that they are both better off without each other. Adrian, especially! Rose and Dimitri are right for e..."Yeah I don't want him to get hurt again. I want him to be happy. She just needs to become more comfortable with them. Rose helped her to be a little more comfortable. I feel like she can be stronger once she really gets out there. She hasn't really had exposure to having to be strong and fighting. She's going to have to get there in order to protect Jill. i heard that in the first chapter of Bloodlines, Rose says that she doesn't think that Sydney wasn't ready to protect Jill and I see where she's coming from.
★ Kimi ★ wrote: "Stormy [S♥J] wrote: "★ Kimi ★ wrote: "Stormy [S♥J] wrote: "★ Kimi ★ wrote: "Stormy [S♥J] wrote: "I definitely think that they are both better off without each other. Adrian, especially! Rose and Di..."Well, she did say: "Rose scowled. 'I should be the one staying. I should be Jill's roommate. No offense, Sydney. We need you for the paperwork, but I'm the one who's gotta kick anyone's ass who gives Jill trouble."
— Richelle Mead (Bloodlines)
It sounds bitchy but when I read the synopsis for Bloodlines I really did think "How is Sydney going to protect Jill?" But Eddie is her gaurdian so that's his job. I don't know what Sydney would have to do with it but I would guess that if Jill or Adrian were outed to the humans she would take care of it because that's what she does for the vampires. Or at least she hide the clues whatever way she can. :/ This series really has me confused on what it is really going to be about.
Stormy [S♥J] wrote: "★ Kimi ★ wrote: "Stormy [S♥J] wrote: "★ Kimi ★ wrote: "Stormy [S♥J] wrote: "★ Kimi ★ wrote: "Stormy [S♥J] wrote: "I definitely think that they are both better off without each other. Adrian, especi..."Yes... I'm a bit confused as well... Like really, what is Sydney's role... I guess we'll just have to find out... lol I hadn't actually heard the quote, I just heard it talked about. That definitely sounds bitchy, but hey, that's Rose. lol she's got edge and attitude. But seriously, when I thought Sydney was going to protect her, I'm thinking wth? lol
♔ Leah. wrote: "Whatever. There is enough evidence to see what their relationship was really about. Wow(!) They talked about Russia and life? They are so totally in love with eachother and are totally soulmates(..."
Hey:) Well, as an avid fan of the Vampire Academy serious, I felt obliged to give my opinion. I'm not picking a fight or anything (looking at the heated comments above...Well, I'm cautious, to say the least, but let me have my small say?)
Okay, I think you should back off from Rose. Somehow it seems to you guys that Rose is some kind of bitch. Well, I'm not denying the fact that Rose can be sassy as hell. But you seem to be forgetting some things.
Firstly, in the first three books, you see Rose almost literally living for her best friend Lissa. Her entire life depended on Lissa. She's hellbent on Lissa's safety, well-being, mental state and everything else. They're true sisters. So when Rose leaves Lissa, I felt like she was finding out who she was. Is it so wrong for a 17 year old teenager, who's been brought up her whole life to protect her best friend, to just, for once in her life, take HER emotions first, HER wants and HER needs first?
Secondly, In the 2nd and 3rd book, there WERE moments where Rose was bitchy. But again, you forget that she was under the influence of Spirit. There were times where she said awful things, and later would say that she and Lissa were surprised at her own words. Don't you guys think that the side-effects of Spirit were clear even in the first 2 books? Richelle Mead was clearly foreshadowing.
Thirdly, Rose has never purposely mislead Adrian. She herself was confused. She loves Dimitri, and when she thought that he was dead, she did what any other teen her age would have done--tried to start anew with someone else. It's either she whined and sulked alone, or actually made a move to get over the love of her life. If she had become a walking rug for you to tread on, people would bitch about her. If she went ahead and tried to start anew, people would still bitch about her. So what did you want her to do?
Addressing Adrian, I feel like you're treating him like a fifteen year old boy seeing a naked woman for the first time. He obviously knew what Rose was doing when she asked for money. Adrian was the one who deserved the blame more. I understand that Rose should have left Adrian alone, but Adrian wanted her too. Both of them wanted to give it a try, but in foresight, Adrian obviously should have known better. You say that Dimitri should have known better, because he was much older, should have been wiser. Well, since Adrian is 'justified' for using his alcohol and cigarettes, as well as being so much older than Rose, shouldn't he also have been wiser? You say his 'addiction' was simply to prevent his own suffering, so obviously your saying that Adrian does things for a reason. You're saying he's not just a dumb addict, and I agree with you. So much so that I think he deserves just as much blame for this relationship as Rose.
Adrian could see auras. He could obviously see the way Rose and Dimitri's auras were when they were together. Adrian also knew all that Rose had done for Dimitri. She had left her best friend, her life and everyone behind just for Dimitri. Did Adrian honestly believe that she could just forget about Dimitri after a day? Adrian saw that she kept wanting to visit Dimitri after he became dhampir again, she had even forgotten a party because she was visiting him in his cell, and STILL Adrian believed. I'm not dissing Adrian, I'm just saying that he brought this onto himself, just like everyone else.
And lastly, Dimitri. Do you intensely dislike him? I don't understand. The connection between Rose and Dimitri is blatantly obvious. They finish each other's jokes, know each others emotions and thoughts so well, they're like the same person. They're HOME to each other. It never was just lust. If it was, when Dimitri had lost all his ideals when he was Strigoi, why didn't he just screw her? If he was reduced to the most basic of emotions, wouldn't he have just looked at Rose and thought, man, She IS hot. I need to bang her. No, somehow, he wanted to provide for her in the twisted way he could.
Dimitri and Rose loved each other. If you really are that sceptical about love being capable by 17 year olds, why even read this genre? This genre is all about teens falling in love.
"Adrian could see auras. He could obviously see the way Rose and Dimitri's auras were when they were together. Adrian also knew all that Rose had done for Dimitri. She had left her best friend, her life and everyone behind just for Dimitri. Did Adrian honestly believe that she could just forget about Dimitri after a day? Adrian saw that she kept wanting to visit Dimitri after he became dhampir again, she had even forgotten a party because she was visiting him in his cell, and STILL Adrian believed. I'm not dissing Adrian, I'm just saying that he brought this onto himself, just like everyone else." No wanting to enter into this rather heated argument (and why is that? Why so much anger? It's a book discussion, after all), but I've been waiting for someone to point this out.
Adrian knew from day one that there was something special between Rose and Dimitri, from the very start. He mentions that he can see Rose's aura the first time he meets her AND then he starts to toss hints about her feelings for Dimitri and Dimitri's feelings for her.
So, Adrian was always fooling himself, whether he has addiction issues or not.
Not saying Rose was perfect, but neither is Adrian.
Ain020596, you make a lot of very good points, well thought out and well supported by what's actually in the books.
Ain020596 wrote: "♔ Leah. wrote: "Whatever. There is enough evidence to see what their relationship was really about.
Wow(!) They talked about Russia and life? They are so totally in love with eachother and are t..."
I personally dislike Dimitri because I think he's a hypocrite and I don't respect people with faux morals. Also, the effects of Spirit can be an excuse for Rose's actions but not Adrian's?
Wow(!) They talked about Russia and life? They are so totally in love with eachother and are t..."
I personally dislike Dimitri because I think he's a hypocrite and I don't respect people with faux morals. Also, the effects of Spirit can be an excuse for Rose's actions but not Adrian's?
Midnight_Kiss wrote: "I personally dislike Dimitri because I think he's a hypocrite and I don't respect people with faux morals."Same here.
I listed the facts up there. They are facts. Rose did things that I view as shitty, bitchy things. Sassy? Really?
sas·sy/ˈsasē/
Adjective: Lively, bold, and full of spirit; cheeky.
Right.
asshole definition
n.
a worthless and annoying person. (Also a term of address. Rude and derogatory.) : Somebody get this asshole outa here before I bust in his face!
Jill can be sassy. Christian can be sassy. Rose stopped being sassy around book #4 when her entire life started to revolve around Dimitri.
I don't like Dimitri. I have no reasons why I should like him. It's not a crime. It's very easy to keep your dick to yourself.
And it's very easy to keep dicks out of you if you have a boyfriend. Two words: We're through. That's all Rose had to say.
Cory wrote: "Midnight_Kiss wrote: "I personally dislike Dimitri because I think he's a hypocrite and I don't respect people with faux morals."
Same here.
I listed the facts up there. They are facts. Rose did..."
But she broke up with him in her mind! Please, if she is mature enough to date a 24 year old man she should be mature enough to know right and wrong.
Same here.
I listed the facts up there. They are facts. Rose did..."
But she broke up with him in her mind! Please, if she is mature enough to date a 24 year old man she should be mature enough to know right and wrong.
No wanting to enter into this rather heated argument (and why is that? Why so much anger? It's a book discussion, after all), but I've been waiting for someone to point this out.Because the Dimitri/Rose fans love victim blaming, which is wrong. Honestly, I'm not even angry. It's more like annoyed. You're using a strawman argument. We never said Adrian was perfect. Just because he's flawed, that doesn't make Rose less flawed. What kind of logic is that? So I murdered one person and you murdered three. Does that make my crime less horrible? It's still a death.
Adrian knew from day one that there was something special between Rose and Dimitri, from the very start.
I won't even debate that something "special" because, obviously, we have different ideas of what makes a "special" connection. So, yes, he did know. And? Rose was still with another guy. The one you guys conveniently forget about: Mason. At that point in time, Adrian was not in love with her. He probably saw her pining after a guy who was about to get married (Dimitri and Tasha) and saw her in a pseudo-relationship with Mason and figured, hey, here's a quick lay. Is that a problem if it's consensual?
He mentions that he can see Rose's aura the first time he meets her AND then he starts to toss hints about her feelings for Dimitri and Dimitri's feelings for her.
How would he know about Dimitri's feelings for her? Aura's don't work like that. They don't point to a specific person. Dmika's dick *cough* I mean aura could have been going off for a myriad of reasons.
So, Adrian was always fooling himself, whether he has addiction issues or not.
Mmmm... no. Adrian didn't start dating Rose until Rose thought Dmika was dead. Once again, she started the relationship. He propositioned her. Two different things. He never forced her into anything. She can't live without a man and wanted a shoulder to cry on. At that point in time, he was in love with her. And she knew that.
Not saying Rose was perfect, but neither is Adrian.
Completely irrelevant to the discussion. Whether or not Adrian is or isn't perfect has nothing to do with Rose. So why are you bringing it up? If anything, you'd do better comparing her to Dimitri, who might just be worse than she is.
Ain020596, you make a lot of very good points, well thought out and well supported by what's actually in the books.
Right. Opinion vs Fact when it's twisted your way might seem like it's valid, but, no. It's not.
I read VA thinking that I'd get into a decent series with a little bit of romance, but mostly action and friendship. Apparently, most of it consisted of a dumb girl trying to get a ride on the Dmika express. Not my idea of entertainment. Whether or not I think teens can be in love is also irrelevant. I did not believe that Dimitri and Rose were in love. Most of your argument hinges on the belief that they are. You and I are in two different realms of reality.
Addressing Adrian, I feel like you're treating him like a fifteen year old boy seeing a naked woman for the first time.um? What does this mean?
He thought Rose was hot. Natural reaction.
He spent time with Rose and fell in love with her.
Rose got into a relationship with him.
Rose cheated on him.
Rose didn't tell him so that she could continue using him.
That's about it.
Midnight_Kiss wrote: "But she broke up with him in her mind! Please, if she is mature enough to date a 24 year old man she should be mature enough to know right and wrong. "Yeah, but apparently, we're wrong for trying to hold her accountable for her actions.
Ain020596 wrote: "♔ Leah. wrote: "Whatever. There is enough evidence to see what their relationship was really about. Wow(!) They talked about Russia and life? They are so totally in love with eachother and are t..."
That was great what you said. Thanks for that. I tried, unsuccessfully to make those points.
Speaking of the auras, I kept on thinking that eventually Adrian would just get it and realize that Rose and Dimitri are drawn to and made for each other. They fit together.
Amy wrote: ""Adrian could see auras. He could obviously see the way Rose and Dimitri's auras were when they were together. Adrian also knew all that Rose had done for Dimitri. She had left her best friend, her..."He knew exactly what he was getting himself into. He was a grown man. He could have at least been a friend and given her some time after all the stuff that had happened.
Cory wrote: "Midnight_Kiss wrote: "But she broke up with him in her mind! Please, if she is mature enough to date a 24 year old man she should be mature enough to know right and wrong. "
Yeah, but apparently, ..."
It's funny how some characters are and some are not, even if they do the same thing
Yeah, but apparently, ..."
It's funny how some characters are and some are not, even if they do the same thing
Ain020596 wrote: "♔ Leah. wrote: "Whatever. There is enough evidence to see what their relationship was really about. Wow(!) They talked about Russia and life? They are so totally in love with eachother and are t..."
Oh here we go again...
First of all, there's a clear difference between being sassy, bold and defiant and then just being a self-righteous, selfish bitch towards anyone she finds weak— which a lot of people cannot differentiate between. And what's it to you that I don't like Rose? I don't like her character, it's not up to you which characters I should/shouldn't like. She does horrible, horrible things yet in this thread I find people defending her disgusting actions all for the sake of love and victimizing Adrian. This annoys me to no end, just because Adrian smokes or drinks, should that allow Rose to be let off for her actions? No, it doesn't.
To address your first point, Rose did all of that on her own free will but she wasn't forced into guardianship. In fact, I think I recall her looking down at a guardian couple who quit in order to be with eachother yet she quit the academy to look down for a man that she liked. For me, it seems that she only became a guardian in order to please Dimitri which doesn't seem to be her finding her own identity but rather doing something that her love interest would approve of? She could have quit being a guardian at anytime, if she can leave her best friend then I'm pretty sure she can do the former. It's stupid to blame Lissa just because Rose couldn't do what she wants— she seemed to be in complete control of her life so why didn't she quit because she wanted freedom?
Oh, so under the influence of spirit completely justifies her lying, deceiving and horrible behavior? No, it doesn't. Lissa didn't seem to be much using much spirit and in order to do the things that Rose did without any remorse, Lissa would have needed to have used spirit in large amounts like the Avery/Reed dynamic.
Thirdly, no— she wasn't confused, it was clear as the day that she "loved" Dimitri yet why did she lead guys on when she KNEW how she felt about him? What was the need to date Mason/Adrian when her feelings suggested otherwise? Rose was well AWARE of the fact that she wasn't over Dimitri, so why did she pursue a relationship that wouldn't end well— because at the side she was trying to bring her boyfriend back and hook up with him again? It's not that damn hard to reject dates and offers from other guys if you aren't ready.
Addressing Adrian, I feel like you're treating him like a fifteen year old boy seeing a naked woman for the first time.
Erm, what? What the fuck is this supposed to mean. He got CHEATED on, what the fuck has that got to do with a 15 year old boy's libido? The answer: NOTHING. Adrian was in love with her and he got used for his assets mainly, continually got lied and deceived by Rose and then in the end got his heart ripped out when she slept with another man and didn't even tell him about it. How the fuck is this similar to a horny boy flicking through Playboy? Again, nothing.
Adrian was the one who deserved the blame more.
Another wave of the victim blaming bullshit— spirit may allow the user to see auras but does it allow the user to have some sort of radar to see into the future and see that they'll get cheated on? What kind of logic are you using? Adrian made his feelings KNOWN to Rose but didn't pressure her into a relationship until AFTER Dimitri was announced to be dead. If Rose thought she was mature to be an amazing guardian and date a mentor, then why isn't she held accountable for not knowing better than leading him on? Hmm?
Adrian could see auras. He could obviously see the way Rose and Dimitri's auras were when they were together.
As Cory said, that's not how auras work— they show emotions and feelings of the person but not exactly their reason as to why they are feeling a certain way. Otherwise, Adrian would have known that Rose was cheating on him in the dream considering her aura was glowing.
Did Adrian honestly believe that she could just forget about Dimitri after a day?
And did Rose honestly think that by dating a man because she wanted some form of temporary affection will make her forget about Dimitri? She's the dimwitted moron who thought by dating various guys she could get over Dimitri. First account being Mason (and that didn't end well), she should have known from that previous experience that it wasn't going to work out, so why accept Adrian's offer when her feelings were screaming that she wasn't ready? Either she is an idiot, she craves male attention or all of the above.
Again, I don't like Dimitri because he is bland— nothing "special" "badass" or "godlike" about him and because he is a huge hypocrite and self-righteous. Also, what's it to you that I don't like him and to what degree. I don't like him because of reasons stated above so I don't see why it's bothersome to you. You can like Rose/Dimitri all you want but it's something else when you are glorifying their gross deeds and victim blaming another.
If it was, when Dimitri had lost all his ideals when he was Strigoi, why didn't he just screw her?
Just because he didn't screw her doesn't meant that he didn't lose his ideals. It was clearly stated in the books that whilst being a Strigoi that he had no control over himself. Strigois are pure evil and have twisted, sick and manipulative ways. You forget that he emotionally, physically abused her and feeded on her continually. And you also forget, he used the idea of sex to manipulate into turning Rose into a Strigoi otherwise the other Strigois, that he was allied with, would kill her. He knew of her strength. He knew it would be amplified when she turned into a Strigoi and wanted to use that to his advantage.
If you really are that sceptical about love being capable by 17 year olds, why even read this genre? This genre is all about teens falling in love.
This genre is Young Adult— it variates from the paranormal to the contemporary and isn't always revolving around love— even if it was, it doesn't show healthy love in any form. Out of my own free will, I don't read because of the love stories but rather character arcs and plots, thank you very much.
Ain020596, you make a lot of very good points, well thought out and well supported by what's actually in the books.
Oh and the opposition arguments weren't? Or was it because it complied with your feelings toward this book thus making it "valid". I'm placing my bet on the latter.
★ Kimi ★ wrote: "Stormy [S♥J] wrote: "★ Kimi ★ wrote: "Stormy [S♥J] wrote: "★ Kimi ★ wrote: "Stormy [S♥J] wrote: "★ Kimi ★ wrote: "Stormy [S♥J] wrote: "I definitely think that they are both better off without each ..."I know, I don't see Sydney running after Strigoi with a stake perched in her hand. Uh, no way. I see her hiding out somewhere with the Moroi until the danger is gone. I could be wrong. *shrug* But I gotta see it(read it) to believe it.
You know, Kimi, that we disagree in this discussion but this is the one that made us friends? lol :)
After Last Sacrifice I kinda lost my respect for Rose. I didn't like how she treated Adrian because its Adrian, the one who livened up the series for me and I hated that she brought him down so low, even though I knew that they were going to break up eventually, I hate how it happened. Adrian should have known better than to get with Rose knowing her reputation and the fact that Rose loved Dimitri but like I said before she was never honest with Adrian about Dimitri and sometimes your feelings overbear your thoughts. Rose made Dimitri think that she was moving on with Adrian so why shouldn't Adrian think the same thing? He knew that she cared for him and thought that she might get over Dimitri and Adrian was the only one that could somewhat comfort her when she wasn't with Dimitri. I mean, come on, I know that she was looking forward to Adrian cocky sweet remarks everyday as much as I was.
And truthfully, I had lost my respect for Dimitri since Spirit Bound because of his line, "I've given up on you. Love fades. Mine has." and then even more in Last Sacrifice with his shit about how he wouldn't take another man's woman.(This is a pet peeve of mine when someone says that they are or aren't going to do something and then doesn't or does do it. That's kind of confusing...) After Last Sacrifice I was happy that we were moving on from Rose and Dimitri because I was tired of them, to be honest.
I understand where everyone is coming from. I really do but this is the way I see it and my opinion so please don't pick apart my post and try to put your opinion into little facts because I'm just trying to share how I feel, not be preached to about the right or wrongs. :)
Stormy [S♥J] wrote: "★ Kimi ★ wrote: "Stormy [S♥J] wrote: "★ Kimi ★ wrote: "Stormy [S♥J] wrote: "★ Kimi ★ wrote: "Stormy [S♥J] wrote: "★ Kimi ★ wrote: "Stormy [S♥J] wrote: "I definitely think that they are both better ..."w00t!
"Oh and the opposition arguments weren't? Or was it because it complied with your feelings toward this book thus making it "valid". I'm placing my bet on the latter."Leah, I very clearly did NOT answer or respond to any of your posts and not Cory's either for the reason that I didn't want to be slammed for my opinion.
And really, that is all the two of you have done, slammed everyone because they don't agree with your opinions. The books are fiction and read for the fun of it.
Why are you both so angry?
I didn't say your OPINIONS weren't valid. Show me where I said that.
And as far as living in a different world, Cory, yes and I'm glad you and I don't live in the same world because where you are seems to be a very dark and angry place.
I'm curious why the two of you read six books about a girl you both hate so much. I think I'd have jumped ship after the first one or two if I found Rose to be such a reprehensible character.
And with that, I'm leaving the discussion because it isn't any longer a discussion, but two people yelling at everyone who dares to disagree.
Adios!
Stormy [S♥J] wrote: "★ Kimi ★ wrote: "Stormy [S♥J] wrote: "★ Kimi ★ wrote: "Stormy [S♥J] wrote: "★ Kimi ★ wrote: "Stormy [S♥J] wrote: "★ Kimi ★ wrote: "Stormy [S♥J] wrote: "I definitely think that they are both better ..."Pretty much summed up my opinions
Leah, I very clearly did NOT answer or respond to any of your posts and not Cory's either for the reason that I didn't want to be slammed for my opinion.That's too bad. You're on a public forum. Get over it.
And really, that is all the two of you have done, slammed everyone because they don't agree with your opinions. The books are fiction and read for the fun of it.
This is me playing the world's smallest violin. Are you really that upset that my opinion is different from your opinion, which supports victim blaming? If so, grow up or leave the internet.
Why are you both so angry?
Why are you so whiny? This is a discussion forum.
I didn't say your OPINIONS weren't valid. Show me where I said that.
Neither are yours. But facts support my opinion, making it more valid than yours. You can have an opinion that the sky is red and I can have an opinion that the sky is blue. But facts say that my opinion is right.
Your opinion is that Rose and Adrian are both on the same level in their relationship. Mine is that Rose is a bitch who should take full responsibility for her actions.
And as far as living in a different world, Cory, yes and I'm glad you and I don't live in the same world because where you are seems to be a very dark and angry place.
Well, if my world is a dark and angry place, so be it. Victim blaming doesn't have a place in my world. I said I wasn't angry, just annoyed. I'm being honest. You, on the other hand, are getting extremely defensive. Are you angry?
I'm curious why the two of you read six books about a girl you both hate so much.
I liked Rose at first, though she was a little bit TSTL. I read because I liked the series up until Shadow Kissed. Then, when it started revolving around Dmika's Dick, I got bored, but I persevered, hoping that Mead was just going through that awkward middle book stage. I was wrong.
I think I'd have jumped ship after the first one or two if I found Rose to be such a reprehensible character.
Characters change from book to book. It's called maturing. Rose dematures with each book. Therefor, I liked her less and less as time went on.
And with that, I'm leaving the discussion because it isn't any longer a discussion, but two people yelling at everyone who dares to disagree. Adios!
I'm glad to see you go. You said that you didn't want to "argue" yet you came into this environment to stir. Rather odd.
Just you know, I have no problem with anyone who likes Dimitri and Rose or their ship. But I do have a problem with victim blaming. Take off your rose tinted glasses and realize that I'm not demonizing you for liking Dmika and Roza, but rather for the fact that you seem to be spreading their flaws onto other characters.
Own up to it. I know someone who likes this entire series and Rose/Dimitri, but they gladly admit where the series has its low points. You can like something with flaws. Not everything you like is perfect and shiny. Just step off the pedestal of perfection and realize that Richelle Mead is only human, and, therefor, capable of error.
I think someone just got...
ETA: Yes, I know that was cruel. But I saw an opening, and I took it.
Amy wrote: ""Oh and the opposition arguments weren't? Or was it because it complied with your feelings toward this book thus making it "valid". I'm placing my bet on the latter."
Leah, I very clearly did NO..."
Lol so Rose is the only character in the series now? I read them for the side characters and you have no right to decide a valid reason for reading the series. You came in here and talked down to everyone acting like your opinion was the only valid one so don't be shocked if that makes people defensive.
Leah, I very clearly did NO..."
Lol so Rose is the only character in the series now? I read them for the side characters and you have no right to decide a valid reason for reading the series. You came in here and talked down to everyone acting like your opinion was the only valid one so don't be shocked if that makes people defensive.
Cory wrote: "Addressing Adrian, I feel like you're treating him like a fifteen year old boy seeing a naked woman for the first time.um? What does this mean?
He thought Rose was hot. Natural reaction.
He sp..."
Hahaha:) I see where you guys could misinterpret me. I was referring to the part where Rose was, according to you guys, "seducing him" for the money. I was saying that Adrian's clearly not helpless to her wiles. He's older and wiser. He wasn't going to drop to his knees just because some 17 year old gave him a smile and a suggestive rub.
Hey guys, calm down. Everyone has their opinions, I'm just trying to say that maybe Rose and Dimitri's actions really aren't as bad as what you guys think.
Leah, I get where you're coming from, but maybe you're taking things a bit too heatedly?
Look, realistically, Young-Adult (yes, I was referring to Young-Adult, no need to bold.) has a lot of romance. Alot. There's Hunger Games, Maximum Ride, Gallagher Girls, Mortal Instruments, Prophecy of the Sisters, etc. (I tried picking out different plots.) All of these books have the protaganist falling for a male character. I'm not trying to impose my will on you or anything, but the way you sound so bitter about Dimitri and Rose's love (or lust, as you call it) makes me wonder whether you doubt teens could truly fall in love. And truthfully, young-adult doesn't have much of plot. There are brilliant ones, but most of them are rip-offs of others. If you want plots, maybe adult Urban Fantasy and Epic Fantasy?
I Understand where you're coming from with the whole "Strigoi Dimitri was really Evil" thing. I felt it too. It disgusted me and I hated it, but what I'm saying is that there was still a part of me that believed in him. He was the one that wanted to stay away from Rose. He didn't actually have sex with her. He gave her gifts, and I know this just sounds sexist but he was Strigoi-he was twisted and evil and maybe that's his way of showing that he cares. Not good or bad care, just "I give a damn about you".
Rose is just 17, ok? What did you expect her to do? That's what I'm saying, she wanted to get over Dimitri. As I said, If she became a weak Bella Swan when Dimitri was gone, people would hate her. If she tried to get over him by seeing Adrian as someone she could potentially love, people would still hate her. I personally would have done the same thing. Maybe I'm 'young' in your opinion or whatever, but I wouldn't have just thrown myself off a cliff. I would have thought, Hey, Adrian likes me. I kinda like him. Why not? Why not give it a try? The love of my life is gone and I'm not waiting around for nothing. Rose and Adrian both knew what they were getting into. Rose isn't perfect, and she never wanted to hurt Adrian. She didn't lead him on, she genuinely thought she was committing herself to the relationship. Dimitri was 'dead' when she made that choice. She was never planning on dumping Adrian for Dimitri, because she thought Dimitri wasn't even ALIVE any more.
Ps, I think I'm right about the auras though. Sonya said that Rose and Dimitri's auras lit around each other, and she could see Rose's aura when she was talking with Adrian. Adrian could see the intensity of her aura by comparing it with when she was with him and when she was with Dimitri.
PPS, Okay, I used 'sass' to put it lightly. I'm sorry, I'll use words more carefully, alright? It was meant to be a joke. Sigh.
all discussions on this book
|
post a new topic
Somehow, someway, every stupid thing Rose does always ends up being somebody else's fault. I don't get it. Why is she beyond making mistakes that are clearly her fault? Apparently, everyone else has them. But Rose is above it?
I've never been a fan of Rose/Dimitri so I'll leave it at I don't think their love isn't true love. Even if it was does that excuse them for acting like jerks? Why can't true love mean true, as in Rose telling Adrian the truth about her feelings for Dimitri, and love as in Rose and Dimitri getting by for a second with each other without breaking headboards?
Cheating is always a lose-lose situation for everyone, no exceptions. Tell me this, what if another Rose comes along for Dimitri or if another Dimitri comes along for Rose? It is possible. Will that be true love? If Rose does the same thing she did to Adrian to Dimitri, or Dimitri to Rose, will that be okay? Please no responses with the common answer: well that won't happen, because they'll never love anyone else besides each other. I beg of you. At least consider the possibility.
I didn't even read through the whole thread. I don't have the time, nor the patience. I'm not asking these questions towards anyone participated in the argument that apparently took place. Just in general. I'm predicting this thread to turn into a ghost town. Please, prove me wrong. Someone actually answer all of my questions directly.