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The Great Gatsby
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message 51:
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Paula
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Jul 23, 2011 05:00PM
Tiffany = it is OUR discussion. and it is a good question for the final week.
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Chiming in now.....don't know if this is the right place to chime in, as this is my first goodreads discussion....I did not read The Great Gatsby in high school. I must say I was taken by the writing of the first few pages....such depth with so few words.
I've only just begun to read....so back to it.
- Eileen
Mod
Having read a few more chapters, I have a different view of who the outsider is.Tom: User
Daisy: Pawn
Gatsby: Outsider
Nick: Observer
Jordan: Catalyst
Mod
Tom: User
Daisy: Pawn
Gatsby: Outsider
Nick: Observer
Jordan: Catalyst"
Susan, without letting out spoilers for those who might not be that far yet, can you explain why you describe Jordan as a "catalyst"? I'm intrigued...
Susan has lead up to our next question:Has your opinion changed of the characters, and if yes, why or if no, why?
Tiffany wrote: "Susan wrote: "Having read a few more chapters, I have a different view of who the outsider is.Tom: User
Daisy: Pawn
Gatsby: Outsider
Nick: Observer
Jordan: Catalyst"
Susan, without letting ..."
Hi, Tiffany -- my reason for calling Jordan a catalyst -- and I hope I'm using the term correctly -- is because she is the one who sets up Nick's tea with Daisy and Jay, but she doesn't have any real part in the whole story except being there. Her romance with Nick cements him to Tom and Daisy, rather than Nick just paying a polite call on his cousin Daisy and, as a single man, going off with a different crowd. But, nothing she does or says or is has any bearing on the events that unfold, except her setting up the tea.
Mod
Ah-ha! I got it! Yeah, I think you summed her up REALLY WELL. I especially like the parts up above that I bolded in quoting you. You're right, she really has no point to the story other than just "being there." Good call!
I'm glad I made one good call, at least. I think I'm going to have to rethink my Daisy word.
Mod
My opinion of Daisy hasn't really changed - I just finished chapter 8. I see her as a used-up hipster, but that's at least 2 words.
Nick's perspective seems less lonely as the book goes on, but maybe he is only less of an outsider because everyone seems to become more separated to an extent.
Gatsby seems less glamourous and more flawed.
My opinion of Tom changes very little.
Jordan seems less jaunty, but only because F. Scott Fitzgerald stops describing her as such ;)
In some ways I can understand why this is a selection is in US high schools. It's a wonderful piece of American writing - the prose is as poetic and perfect as any English lit will get. Also, I it truly captures the feeling of being alive - a young adult in a young free, capitalist country. However, there are some strange themes here, too. Adultery and alcoholism, anyone?
I'm way behind, just finished chapter three.Nick: observer
Tom: egotistical
Daisy: fool
Gatsby: puppet-master
Jordan: shrewd
This is my first time reading The Great Gatsby. I can definitely see why teenage readers would not enjoy the book. The writing is beautiful, but I'm not really connecting with any of the characters. At this point, I can see why this may be better as a reread. You know the outcome, so you're free to enjoy the subtleties of the writing.
MODERATOR QUESTION:ARE THERE OTHER THEMES THAT ARE JUMPING OUT AT YOU AT THIS TIME THAT YOU DIDN'T NOTICE WHEN READING GATSBY IN THE FIRST TIME?
Okay, finally caught up. Can't believe I'm reading this AGAIN.Nick: neutered
Tom: boor
Daisy: martyr - in the bad way
Gatsby: cameleon
Jordan: arrogant
RE question 2: I don't know about themes, but the general level of disillusionment portrayed is really striking to me. I don't recall that from my decades ago encounters.
Did anyone have the same reaction that I did. I thought all the characters were extremely lifelike and real except -- Gatsby. I thought he was wooden and ununderstandable. Part of it might be his calling everyone "Old Sport," and I have never in real life heard anyone use that term. (When watching the movie with Robert Redford and Mia Farrow, I felt this too on the part of Redford's Gatsby) I tried to pretend he was saying Bro, Buddy, Hoss, Cap, but was unable to picture it. Gatsby never comes alive to me as the other characters do.
I was surprised that when I first read the book that the instances of alcoholism, adultery, domestic violence, racism, and anti-semitism weren't noted or discussed. I read it for the first time in High School. Later reading it as an undergrad and in grad school the themes were fully developed and discussed. Thank goodness. And it was a book about materialism and grasping for 'more and more'. I really grew to dislike Daisy - for a multitude of reasons - did anybody else do so?
and Susan - I agree with the "Old Sport" affectation.
And yet - I love this book. Fitzgerald's language is beautiful....
Mod
Say what?!? Your teacher never mentioned these? Do you think it was a case of hoping the students didn't notice the bad aspects of the novel? Or maybe there wasn't enough time to talk about everything in the book? It just seems strange not to even *mention* those big, bad things!
I think all the negative things mentioned in Paula's post must be taken in the context of the times. That Fitzgerald's characters had these belief and opinion may or may not indicate Fitzgerald's beliefs. If they do it doesn't negate the quality of writing.
Mod
Oh, I took Paula's post to mean the *teachers* didn't discuss those things. I figured teachers would point out the issues, if nothing else as "These are the things that were acceptable in those times."
Huh?!?!? I would like to point that there is alcoholism, racism and adultery in every age, including this one. They are acceptable in some circles in every age, and unacceptable in other circles in every age.
P.S. And whether they are acceptable or not, they still occur.
And they're good fodder for discuss in a classroom, but I, too, have no recall of any such discussions. Optometrist signs, pier lights, shirts, yes. Tom's rant in the first chapter comes out of nowhere, and I always wonder if it's there to show us what a lout he is right from the start. That's probably my late 20th century bias showing.
They would be good topics to discuss in a classroom. But I have no such recollection of any such discussion in high school. It is like they were there, but not there..... But, then again, it was the 70's. Donna - I think Fitzgerald needed to show us what a brute and a lout Tom was so he threw things in at the start. While certain populations held certain views - a lot of people didn't agree with them. I'm not certain how Fitzgerald felt about racism and anti-semitism. Time to surf the net or does anybody out there know? These could have been a device to show a character's feelings or to give the public a poke to start thinking about where they stood on certain issues.....
Just want to toss this in - Everybody is aware that Wolfshiem is based on Arnold Rothstein?
FINAL QUESTION:IS THE GREAT GATSBY the Great American Novel? Or can you name another novel that could compete with it?
and why?
Harold wrote: "Just want to toss this in - Everybody is aware that Wolfshiem is based on Arnold Rothstein?"He seems to have provided inspiration for a few writers. Wasn't Nathan Detroit of "Guys & Dolls" supposed to be based on him as well? Bit of a stretch for me.
Mod
IS THE GREAT GATSBY the Great American Novel? Or can you name another novel that could compete with it?
and why?"
I confess I have't read the final chapter yet, but I have been thinking that this is the great American novel. Why? Because the vocabulary and flow is as enchanting (or more so) as any classic - the standards that are usually British and to which everything in English will always be compared.
As much as I enjoy Stefanie Meyer and Gail Carriger, there are very few American writers I can name that have produced such lyrical works as The Great Gatsby. Okay, to make that less offensive, there are very writers of any nation that produce F. Scott Fitzgerald's quality. This book proves a new worlder can know the beauty of the language as much as one from the old.
I have to agree with Faye's assessment concerning the quality of Fitzgerald's writing. It really is remarkably good. Is it THE great American novel? I prefer to think of it as A great American novel. What can rival it? imho "The Godfather" is a great book that touches on universal themes and accurately describes the America of it's time.Donna - I guess Nathan Detroit is an example of musical license. Your post makes me want to reread some Damon Runyon and watch the DVD of "Guys and Dolls."
Paula wrote: "They would be good topics to discuss in a classroom. But I have no such recollection of any such discussion in high school. It is like they were there, but not there..... But, then again, it wa..."That I did not know. and now who is Arnold Rothstein?
from Wikipedia:Arnold Rothstein:
Arnold Rothstein (January 17, 1882 – November 5, 1928),[1][2] nicknamed "The Brain", was a New York businessman and gambler who became a famous kingpin of the Jewish mafia. Rothstein was also widely reputed to have been behind baseball's Black Sox Scandal, in which the 1919 World Series was fixed. His notoriety inspired several fictional characters based on his life, including "Meyer Wolfsheim" in F. Scott Fitzgerald's novel The Great Gatsby[3] ; the character who shared his name in the Broadway Musical "Legs Diamond"; and "Nathan Detroit" in the Damon Runyon story The Idyll of Miss Sarah Brown, which was made into the musical Guys and Dolls.
According to crime writer Leo Katcher, Rothstein "transformed organized crime from a thuggish activity by hoodlums into a big business, run like a corporation, with himself at the top."[4] According to Rich Cohen, Rothstein was the person who first saw in Prohibition a business opportunity, a means to enormous wealth, who "understood the truths of early century capitalism and came to dominate them". Rothstein was the Moses of the Jewish gangsters, according to Cohen, the progenitor, a rich man's son who showed the young hoodlums of the Bowery how to have style; indeed, the man who, the Sicilian-American gangster Lucky Luciano later said, "taught me how to dress."
I, too, am not quite finished, but that doesn't mean I don't have an opinion- HA! Is this (as Harold puts it) A Great American novel? Yes, absolutely. The beauty of the writing aside, my feeling is that the term should be applied to a work that perfectly encapsulates the time & place in which it's written evoking a uniquely American experience. Someone reading it in England, or Japan, or Iceland would recognize it as an American story, not something that could easily take place in their country by changing the proper nouns. I would certainly put a book like Steinbecks's "The Grapes of Wrath" in the same category. Reading it you can feel the grit, the despair, the anger in the air.
And, Harold you say that like it would be a hardship for you, when I know you're just salivating for a reason.
"I got the horse right here; his name is Paul Revere...."
Mod
I would certainly put a book like Steinbecks's "The Grapes of Wrath" in the same category. Reading it you can feel the grit, the despair, the anger in the air."
Wow, Donna's explanation totally changed my answer. I was going to say that I don't think this is TheGreat American Novel; I wasn't even sure this was A Great American Novel (as Harold put it). I thought it was A Pretty Good American Novel. But after reading Donna's thoughts, okay, I'm sold. If this isn't The Great American Novel, it is at least A Great American Novel.
I think I always sort of expected The Great American Novel to be a difficult read (big words, or Deep Thoughts, or reeeeaaaally long, like Moby-Dick), and I didn't find Gatsby to be a difficult read (or hugely Deep, or long, obviously), so I decided it *couldn't* be The Great American Novel. It was definitely an interesting story, and like Faye, I love Fitzgerald's writing and tone and style, but "Great"? I wasn't so sure. Now that I've read Donna's thoughts, though, about time and place, and not being able to switch out one country for another, I think I could be convinced that this is A Great American Novel, or A Great American Novel Representing the 1920s.
In replying to the question of whether my opinion of the characters changed: As far as Daisy goes, at first I felt sorry for her for being a female who must do what it expected of her. She must marry; she must marry someone of equal or greater standing in the community. She could not have married Gatsby the first time around. She cared for him, but her future was preordained. However, the few sentences in the book when Nick sees her through the window conspiring with Tom after the accident, I see her as a more willing participant in the course of her life. She is willing to let Gatsby take the blame for her wrongdoing, and she shows no compassion or guilt at all for Myrtle's death and her husband's grief.
Mod
Mod
Perfectly sums up the characters, to an extent the book and one of the factors that makes this an american work.
Donna said:"... And, Harold you say that like it would be a hardship for you, when I know you're just salivating for a reason."I got the horse right here; his name is Paul Revere...."
I'm looking for my copy of Damon Runyon stories. LOL
Ok. HI GUYS!
I started reading late, but I flew right through the book. I had forgotten how much I had loved it when I read it in high school.
It was an interesting experience overall, because what I had highlighted and underlined for my high school class was not necessarily what I felt was important this time when I read it. It was usually the sentence right AFTER the one that I had underlined before.
I was thinking the whole time about the first question, coming up with a one-word description of each character. I couldn't really do that.
What I thought was the most fascinating was the irony that everyone is trying to be something they're not--personality wise--except Gatsby, who is the only one with a manufactured persona.
As for the Great American Novel... I think that this counts. I'd also count Atlas Shrugged. Especially considering the current budget situation in the US. I read it a few years ago, but my mom is reading through it now and a lot of it is making a lot more sense when we discuss it.
I started reading late, but I flew right through the book. I had forgotten how much I had loved it when I read it in high school.
It was an interesting experience overall, because what I had highlighted and underlined for my high school class was not necessarily what I felt was important this time when I read it. It was usually the sentence right AFTER the one that I had underlined before.
I was thinking the whole time about the first question, coming up with a one-word description of each character. I couldn't really do that.
What I thought was the most fascinating was the irony that everyone is trying to be something they're not--personality wise--except Gatsby, who is the only one with a manufactured persona.
As for the Great American Novel... I think that this counts. I'd also count Atlas Shrugged. Especially considering the current budget situation in the US. I read it a few years ago, but my mom is reading through it now and a lot of it is making a lot more sense when we discuss it.
Mod
P.S. I'm NOT reading Shakespeare (high school, not american :) )
Faye wrote: "I just finished. I love your comment, Donna - "a work..."This is why saying never again always ends up biting you in the butt. Yes, I'd had to read it so many times back in the day that I thought I knew all I needed to about it. I have to say, though, that a few decades removal was a good thing. Amazing how much more you can enjoy something when you don't have to write a paper about it... or take a test.
I loved this discussion! Thank you to everybody for re-reading or reading this book. And for all the participation.My final thoughts: Fitzgerald's writing made Gatsby one of the Great American Novels. A friend likened it to music. He captured a time in America - one that is perhaps much like today? An attitude of carelessness and letting others clean up the messes, much like Tom and Daisy. There's a timelessness to what was written in Gatsby and if Fitzgerald wrote it today it would definitely had been different language - choppier, vulgar, but definitely the same theme.
I would love to be part of another discussions - someone moderating, though!
Mod
Well thank you for moderating, Paula! Cheers.
Mod
Perfectly sums up the characters, to an extent the book and one of the factors that makes this an american work.
Oh, I loved that quote, too! It made me ... almost hate them, even though I'd liked Daisy all the way through the book (Okay, she might not be an admirable character, but I at least liked her.). And the narrator (Nick? Fitzgerald?) sounds so DISGUSTED with them... Brilliant!
Faye wrote: "Not to put a damper on any more The Great Gatsby discussion, but everyone's suggestions about the Great American Novel is making me wonder what book we do next. Great American Novel or ..."Hmmm.... Back in H.S. one of my lit classes wwould be divided up & each group given a different book, so while I was reading "A Seperate Peace" the other groups were doing "Johnny Got His Gun" and "Lord of the Flies". While I read "My Darling, My Hamburger" others read "The Outsiders". We all got an overview of the unread books when the groups did reports, so I know the gist of the stories, but I've never actually read them. Did anyone else have that experience and want to go back to read one of the other books?
suggestions for next book:a farewell to arms by ernest hemingway
a separate peace by john knowles?
to kill a mockingbird by harper lee
Always looking for an excuse to reread "To Kill A Mockingbird."
Mod
Ditto! I've been meaning to re-read it for over a year, since I don't remember much of it.
Mod
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