A Song of Ice & Fire Fans discussion
Possible endings of the story
Maja wrote: "Sansa just does whatever she is told... Once she starts using her own head and making her own decisions, that will be the day I say she grew as a character.Just my opinion. We shall see..."
I disliked Sansa immediately at the beginning because she didn't have typical Stark qualities that the other siblings shared (except rickon who was then but a baby). I also blamed her for Lady's death. Though i give her credit as the series progressed because at least now her head is no longer in the clouds and filled with frivolous things.
For what it's worth, I have thought for several books now that Westeros would revert back to several kingdoms - if not seven then at least three (Dorne, the North, the rest) with the Starks back as Kings of the North. Keeping in mind GRRM's love of History, by the end of the Wars of the Roses, England had lost it's claim to it's territories in France, and though several kings tried to reclaim Aquitaine and Calais, they never were really able to.
So I agree that the various powers of the seven kingdoms may need to ally themselves together to fight the Others, but there seems no reason for the North or Dorne to fall back under the power of the Iron Throne.
In regards to Sansa, I am almost at the end of ADWD and there is no pov for her.
So I have some crazy thoughts as to how this story ends. I tend to agree with the Jon is Lyanna's and Rhegars theory. It just doesn't make sense that Ned dishonored himself like that and also, Lynna's last words were "Promise me Ned." As to Jon being dead, I really hope he isn't and I don't think he is. Although it wouldn't be the first time GRRM killed off a major character.
But anyway, obviously Jon needs to get off the wall, and I have read some stuff where people think this will happen "when the wall comes down". But, if that wall comes down, Westeros doesn't really stand a chance. So basically, before Jon leaves the wall, the whitewalkers need to be no more. Here is where my theory comes in. Sam is able to kill a whitewalker using dragonglass. This leads me to believe that dragons have something to do with the downfall of the whitewalkers. So if Jon is Targaryen, he would be able to ride a dragon, and therefore defeat the whitewalkers. It also parallels the whole fire and ice thing. With the dragons being fire and the whitewalkers ice. Up to this point, we haven't really been given any insight as to how the whitewalker problem is going to be solved. They just keep posing a threat that cannot be answered.
As to the second coming of Azor Ahai, it is definitely not Stannis. I have seen elsewhere that some think it is Jon, because when Melissandre was looking in the fire for "the second coming of Azor Ahai", she kept seeing Jon. However, it is mentioned briefly, but she also gets glimpses of a far off land, that seemed to me like Meereen. This is where Dany is, which makes me think Dany is the second coming of Azor Ahai. This would also parallel the first Azor Ahai, who killed his wife to make a stronger sword. Well, Dany used her husbands death to get the strongest weapon ever, dragons.
I am also not completely convinced the this emergence of Aegon Targaryen is for real. He could be the real heir, or he could be a fake. But if he is real, then I think the three dragon riders will be him, Dany (obviously), and Jon (because I am comvinced her is a Targeryan).
I think I am done rambling for now, but I am sure I will come up with a million more theories before the series ends.
Ooooh, I like the connection with Dany using Drogo to create her weapon - I was thinking for a while that Daenerys was AA reborn, but couldn't make a connection to that part of his legend. Can't believe I missed that!
I think it's too soon to determine a possible outcome of the series..
Lani wrote: "Logic points to Daenerys being the ruler of Westeros, but I can't really imagine that happening, maybe because I'm not a fan of the character. Hopefully the next books come sooner than later."i love her, but what logic points to her. she is dumb. she cant even rule a city. all her choices end badly. she is destined to die or be a trophy wife.
wow. there are people who chose to read "Possible endings of the story" yet begging for no spoilers and havent read all 8 books yet? i'm sorry, but people are likely to support and argue their positions using info from every source in this type of thread. if you dont want to read how bragalor the bompous dies, dont read these kinds of threads. just good advice.
So I have some crazy thoughts as to how this story ends. I tend to agree with the Jon is Lyanna's and Rhegars theory. It just doesn't make sense that Ned dishonored himself like that and also, Lynna's last words were "Promise me Ned." As to Jon being dead, I really hope he isn't and I don't think he is. Although it wouldn't be the first time GRRM killed off a major character.
But anyway, obviously Jon needs to get off the wall, and I have read some stuff where people think this will happen "when the wall comes down". But, if that wall comes down, Westeros doesn't really stand a chance. So basically, before Jon leaves the wall, the whitewalkers need to be no more. Here is where my theory comes in. Sam is able to kill a whitewalker using dragonglass. This leads me to believe that dragons have something to do with the downfall of the whitewalkers. So if Jon is Targaryen, he would be able to ride a dragon, and therefore defeat the whitewalkers. It also parallels the whole fire and ice thing. With the dragons being fire and the whitewalkers ice. Up to this point, we haven't really been given any insight as to how the whitewalker problem is going to be solved. They just keep posing a threat that cannot be answered.
As to the second coming of Azor Ahai, it is definitely not Stannis. I have seen elsewhere that some think it is Jon, because when Melissandre was looking in the fire for "the second coming of Azor Ahai", she kept seeing Jon. However, it is mentioned briefly, but she also gets glimpses of a far off land, that seemed to me like Meereen. This is where Dany is, which makes me think Dany is the second coming of Azor Ahai. This would also parallel the first Azor Ahai, who killed his wife to make a stronger sword. Well, Dany used her husbands death to get the strongest weapon ever, dragons.
I am also not completely convinced the this emergence of Aegon Targaryen is for real. He could be the real heir, or he could be a fake. But if he is real, then I think the three dragon riders will be him, Dany (obviously), and Jon (because I am comvinced her is a Targeryan).
I think I am done rambling for now, but I am sure I will come up with a million more theories before the series ends.
i like your martinesque twists. my first thought was yeah right, and they could.ve just grabbed another baby and told him he was aegon and raised him accordingly. at the time there was no daenarys with her dragons. and what does tyrion advise, after the lad saves him. tyrion who sees through everyone? change your plans. go far away. attack westeros and gain strength and power before you meet danaerys.
i dont think azor azhai ever shows. i think the wights win, everything dies, and the eternal winter sets in. the whole series is an expression of humankinds base selfishness and depravity.
Stangmark wrote: "So I have some crazy thoughts as to how this story ends. I tend to agree with the Jon is Lyanna's and Rhegars theory. It just doesn't make sense that Ned dishonored himself like that and also, Lynn..."Hmmm! I hope you are not right with the whole wights winning and everything dying... That would just be waaay to depressing.... even for Martin... :)
I think it is going to be a ''happy'' ending... By that I mean, happy in the Martin universe. It will be satisfying, but not necessarily all peachy and wonderful...
I'm with you Maja, the "winners" will probably be synonymous with "survivors," and whomever it may be will be left to lick their wounds and rebuild as best they can. So not "happily ever after," but still "happy" in a fairly realistic way for the universe.
Marjorie wrote: "Readers have been speculating that Jon is the child of Lyanna and Rhaegar FOREVER. IMO, that is just a bit tooo obvious.
I can't help feeling that GRRM has something a little more startling up ..."
I would not be disappointed if it turns out he is their son. Maybe Martin wanted it that way, but after so much buzz he decides to do something different... Or maybe he will do the obvious with Jon and his parents, but do something crazy afterwards.
I am just done with ASOS..Here's what I want1) Jon and Daenerys gets married...and they lead the 7 kingdom.
2) Tyrion becomes the hand of the king.
3) LF joins the others in his quest of power and somehow gets killed by Sansa.
4) Bran becomes the grand maester or something like that.
5) Daenerys, Jon and Tyrion are the three riders of the dragon.
6) Arya rules winterfell. I have no suitable match for her.
7) Cersei is gangraped in public for the pathetic whore she is.
8) Jaime becomes the Lord Commander of Night's watch.
9) Sansa and Tyrion actually become a couple.
10) Sandor Clegane should be alive to kill Gregor and take his revenge.
I dont think I care for the fate of other characters that much.
1) May be undone if you read further2) Doubt he'd stop as the hand don't you?
3) When you say others, you don't the Others do you? Because that would be interesting, fres\akish, but interesting. And it would be nice for Sansa to FINALLY DO SOMETHING!
4) He's got a long way to go from where he is.
5) Possible
6) I like this idea, but I don't know if she'll 'return'
7) In a sense she does.
8) Now that would be nice to see. He's gotten a whole lot more likeable after his 'loss'
9) You'll see.
10) Possible.
I'd like for Theon to take the Seastone Chair, and Stannis to prove his claims as long lost King-God of the Wildlings. At least if he has a Kingdom he'll stop moaning and whinging and grouching. I'd like Davos to be rewarded for his worth.
9)
I just have a comment to make about Jon: I don't believe he's going to die. I think Melisandre is bringing him back through R'hllor, he'll be ice and fire together (PWWP), blah blah blah, but I think him being brought back to life will make him be considered Azor Ahai (who says it can't be Jon AND Dany?). But like Dany had to sacrifice Drogo Jon's going to have to sacrifice something too.And if
Melisandre
kills
Ghost
I will never
forgive GRRM
as long as I live.
As much as I would hate it if that happened, I think it would be a testament to the series enduring popularity, that it isn't afraid to take readers expectations and smashthem to pieces only to reveal something unthought of and even more amazing underneath. That said however, stabbing does not seem to kill people in these books, especially if it's on a cliffhanger at the end of a chapter.
Bailey wrote: "I just have a comment to make about Jon: I don't believe he's going to die. I think Melisandre is bringing him back through R'hllor, he'll be ice and fire together (PWWP), blah blah blah, but I thi..."hahahaha! I am more consistently sad about the direwolves who get killed than any other characters.
Stephanie wrote: "Bailey wrote: "I just have a comment to make about Jon: I don't believe he's going to die. I think Melisandre is bringing him back through R'hllor, he'll be ice and fire together (PWWP), blah blah ..."I know right?! An Arya/Nymeria reunion is in my top three reunions I want to happen haha. And Grey Wind at the Red Wedding..... don't wanna even think about it.
Bailey wrote: "Stephanie wrote: "Bailey wrote: "I just have a comment to make about Jon: I don't believe he's going to die. I think Melisandre is bringing him back through R'hllor, he'll be ice and fire together ..."That's one of my top 5. :) I kept thinking in Clash & Storm that somehow Arya would run into Nymeria & the wolf would save her. Sadly no. :(
Maggie,I kept expecting that too. He seemed to mention it too much for it to never happen, but who knows at this point.
I do hope none of the other wolfs die. I mean, why even have them in the story in a first place if they will all just die in the end? I guess that is the genius behind it... GRRM makes you care about the characters and animals and then takes his pick - ''I think I will kill a wolf next!'' -
Maja wrote: "I do hope none of the other wolfs die. I mean, why even have them in the story in a first place if they will all just die in the end? I guess that is the genius behind it... GRRM makes you care abo..."I know right?! I think that if/when Arya makes it back to Westeros she's definitely going to have some sort of reunion, be it Sansa, Nymeria, or JON. (Also I'd like an Arya/Gendry reunion but I want her to get back to her family first.)
That's what's so crazy about this series! The animals and gods are weighted just as much as the people - sometimes even more - that almost nothing and no one is safe.
Oh yeah and since this thread was originally about possible endings to the story I thought I'd share one I came across. It's not mine, someone else told it to me! But anyways I assume that Dany and her dragons defeated the White Walkers and she entered the war for rule of Westeros. The battle comes to and end but we still don't know who won/exactly what happened to all the characters.
The last chapter is Jaime, and the last words of the series are "Jaime Lannister sits on the Iron Throne waiting to see who will come to claim it."
Just can you imagine? On one side it's awful because no one wants ambiguity but on the other hand everything would have come full circle and ajghasolifjalweks.
So I just thought I'd share!
(Also smh at people who don't think Sansa is fabulous.)
That would depend on your definition of fabulous Bailey. Right now Sansa is one of those characters I couldn't care less about, but I pity her because she's one of the used and not a user, in that she is manipulated by others but has little chance to do anything for herself, take decisive action. If her role was revered with Arya's they'd both go insane, Sansa is pretty and ornamental where Arya is practical and outgoing, but to each their own, and thus far, Sansa has survived and is living a relatively cushy life without many problems,so that's a plus.
Woolfie wrote: "That would depend on your definition of fabulous Bailey. Right now Sansa is one of those characters I couldn't care less about, but I pity her because she's one of the used and not a user, in that ..."Agree to disagree I guess, because I don't think there's anyone in the entire story who's had a relatively cushy life since Robert came to Winterfell to ask Ned to be Hand. And definitely not Sansa, who was emotionally and physically tortured at the hand of her captors.
I think she's one of the strongest characters in the story and also one of the smartest. She was definitely in probably the most dangerous position out of all of the Stark children, and I think she's played the role she had to to stay alive. All of the others acted rashly without thinking things through but if she did that it would pretty much inevitably mean death.
And I don't think she can be considered one of the used anymore? Her ~arrangement with Littlefinger is Creepy but he's basically training her to rule; she's learning how to sway people and handle them.
Queen in the North, going to rebuild Winterfell, etc etc.
Now that would be a really depressing..."My thoughts exactly.. : (
Oh certainly she has strength, but she's just playing the ornament to stay out of trouble, a wise move cinsidering that there really isn't anything remotely resembling a 'safe option' in the seven kingdoms. And while I think Littlefinger is puling the strings and she's his obedient puppet, she's a puppet with the capacity to learn, and as she sheds her naive delusions of heroism and all that, she's becoming a better person and character, less the victim, more in a position to do something about it. I say relatively cushy, because apart from enduring the tyranny of the little bastard we know and loathe as Joffrey, she's been unwittingly involved in several plots, all aimed to extricate and elevate her. She's gone along with them as she has no other viable options. I'd like to see her have a clear choice and which one she would choose thenm of her own free will, not swayed by safety, or necessity or ideals.
I hope she does something just really incredible that outsmarts everyone. The game she has to play is so different than what everyone else is playing and she does it so well, it's just not always easy for people to spot. I think she's long since given up all of the songs and stories, by A Storm of Swords at the latest (more like ACOK).
Really I just want her to do something that will get her respect. Maybe she'll get Littlefinger killed by turning people against him at the Eyrie (sort of like Cat turned everyone against Tyrion in A Game of Thrones).
I think Dany will defeat the others with her dragons. I really want to know more about this "God who must not be named".
I think there is a lot yet to be revealed about the maesters and power of the dragons and near the end the 'magical' story will become more important than the 'character' story
I don't believe GRRM would kill off his most popular character with 2 more books left, so I think Jon will survive, but not necessarily as we would like...much like Catelyn. What about as a White Walker/Other being?And Arya will ride a dragon - I hope!
I have a feeling there will be love between Jon and Daenerys at the peak of the struggle in the winter and with respect to Daenerys prophecy she will give birth to John's son and he will become the king of Westeros and all the nine free cities except Braavos...."the stallion who mounts the world" with Daenerys as Queen Regent,Tyrion the Hand of the king and Warden of the west,Rickon the warden of north and Arya will become a member of Kingsgaurd and will be known as the unknown/unnamed White Knight.I think Azor Azhai will be Jon and he will die finally since he forsake his vows of Nights watch but in a grand style ending the war with "others" with the simultaneous death during battle between Leader of others and Jon.Bran will take his seat along with the children of the forest in the North or will take them along with him and establish his new seat in The Isle of Faces as the Last Greenseer. Stannis will die in one to one combat with Brienne.Sansa I hope she will either love Tyrion finally or marry off some new character in the Eyrie and will become the Warden of the West.Petyr Baelish will die in the hands of Sansa only with all the training he gives her as part of revenge for her father.I feel Cersei will die in hands of either Tyrion or Jaime. Mycrella will become the queen of Dorne and Tommen will be led off to Casterly Rock.The Wall will come down and I hope the Horn of Joramun and the Horn which Euron Greyjoy brought with him may be same and will bring down the wall for the final fight with others.Catelyn will die peacefully after meeting all her children and Every Frey is dead.
Marjorie wrote: ""... love between Jon and Daenerys at the peak of the struggle in the winter and with respect to Daenerys prophecy she will give birth to John's son and he will become the king of Westeros and all ..."lol. "A little bit more incest" sounds like the prayers of the HBO publicity department!
Stephanie wrote: "Marjorie wrote: ""... love between Jon and Daenerys at the peak of the struggle in the winter and with respect to Daenerys prophecy she will give birth to John's son and he will become the king of ..."What can i hope when Aegon wants to marry his aunt? why not jon..Jon whose parentage is still as doubt has the best chance to fall in love with her.According to u who u might think Daenerys final lover will be?
What about Dorne and the Vale of Arryn? Anyone have any theories on their involvement?
Grenador wrote: "Stephanie wrote: "Marjorie wrote: ""... love between Jon and Daenerys at the peak of the struggle in the winter and with respect to Daenerys prophecy she will give birth to John's son and he will b..."The possibilities abound, don't they? I'd like for it to be Jon, because I like him and want him to have some happy in his life. But, wouldn't Tyrion be interesting? Or Arya or Sansa? I think the prophecy said "lover," not "man."
As for Dorne and the Vale, I think that they are both related to Cercei's prophecy; she thinks the "younger and more lovely" queen that threatens her is Margaery, but I have a feeling either Sansa or Myrcella is the one... Dany is a possibility, but that feels too obvious, and the Dorne / Vale storylines do need to tie in somehow.
What if it all ends up being a board game the gods play just to pass the time? Or something?
If Jon is indeed the son of Lyanna & Rhaegar, (which I do believe), how would it be proven? Is anyone who might have known still alive??
Elise wrote: "If Jon is indeed the son of Lyanna & Rhaegar, (which I do believe), how would it be proven? Is anyone who might have known still alive??"Howland Reed!!! Or we might possibly figure it out through Bran's ~tree visions or whatever you'd call them. He's already seen things that have happened in the past, so maybe he'll see Ned praying to the old gods about having Jon accepted as one of his sons even though he's Lyanna's or something.
Marjorie wrote: "Howland Reed is the key to a lot of things in these books.But it occurs to me that not all the predictions and prophecies will necessarily be resolved. In real life, there are loose ends; why not..."
I keep thinking that Dany might have another kid later on. The maegi lady who told her she wouldn't had just finished helping kill her first baby, so why should she be believed? Couldn't she have said it just be cruel?
But I think you are right - a theme of these books is prophecy, and setting too much store by it.
I have read all 5 books, and have heard the theory about Jon being Lyanna's and Rhaegar son...but haven't seen any proof of that theory in any of the books..could i have missed it? please tell me what chapter to look!!!what is ADWD??
thank you so much!
Tamara wrote: "I have read all 5 books, and have heard the theory about Jon being Lyanna's and Rhaegar son...but haven't seen any proof of that theory in any of the books..could i have missed it? please tell me w..."A Dance With Dragons
I'm still convinced "winter" will bring some major changes-GRRM may purposely throw out all our beloved characters! He has only given us part of the prophecies-there may be many, many more to come...he does love killing off the heroes.
Tamara wrote: "I have read all 5 books, and have heard the theory about Jon being Lyanna's and Rhaegar son...but haven't seen any proof of that theory in any of the books..could i have missed it? please tell me w..."Well, there is no real "proof," just lots and lots of conjecture. You can check http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/E...
for a general write up - the last parts talk about some of the bits and pieces leading up to this theory. The basics are that
1 Rhaegar and Lyanna were alone together during the time of Jon's conception, sequestered in that tower down south
2 that Rhaegar left kingsguard behind to protect Lyanna when he left for the war, (why, if there was no one there of royal blood?),
3 that when Ned found Lyanna, she was dying in a "bed of blood," which is how the birthing-bed has been described elsewhere in the series,
4 that she was desperate for Ned to promise her something, so he did, and never broke the promise,
5 and he flat out refused to discuss Jon's parentage, ever. Even to Jon.
There are lots of other little tidbits that could point that way too, in various prophecies and such, but it's all scattered throughout the series. Which means there is no one chapter to look at.
I have a feeling that Arya will return after becoming one of the 'faceless men', she will come back, reunite with Nymeria (because we know from her dreams that she is a warg as well, and Nymeria is alive, and very strong), and then Arya will get her revenge!!I also agree with the idea that the "little brother" who will kill Cersei, as she was told will be Jamie, as he has changed grammatically...
oh and another thought, about Tyrion not being Tywin LAnnister's son...it just occured to me, i know its a crazy thoight,but i will share anyway: what if Tywin Lannister found out that his wife was pregnant with King Aegon's child, and he killed her (not the child birth, as we were told), hence his hatred for Tyrion...and then he sacked kings landing toward the end of the rebellion of Robert Baratheon and Eddard Stark..hoping to kill king Aerys, but Jemie has done it for him...although why let Tyrion live?
Good point Marjorie: we've been discussing a prequel in another chat which would clarify alot of questions. We came into this epic half way through it seems, and I'd love to know what happened before.I mean what REALLY happened before. But knowing GRRM he won't tell
us everything. Only enough to keep us guessing, just as we are doing now!
It would be great, but a little sad to have everything tied up with a neat little bow, in the end.
Then it would all be finished, overwith, done, and that would be the worst, wouldn't it ?
I'd like to keep on reading as long as GRRM can write, and as long as I'm alive, neither which, will be forever. So I will take whatever time and story I can get!
And I'll suck it up ! ( grumbling quietly )
What I mean is how difficult it must have been for Cat to be promised to Brandon, lose him, be sort of pawned off on Ned, whom she eventually ( obviously ) grew to love, and go through all she had to go through? That's a tough one don't you think?
Also to be left pregnant, and have yer hubby come back with an infant almost the same age as yours, (by him......) Doesn't instill much trust in his faithfulness!
I'm wondering about that relationship, as well! I'm wondering if it was more one way than the other. We've all been there, one person is in love the other is in a friendship, and has no idea that the other is in love! I think that was what was going on there! Littlefinger saw only what he wanted to see, much more than what was there, Catylen much less! He would kill for her, and has, and that's all well and good in their world, but she would rather it had been a Lannister, and definately reject the victim he chose!
Just my opinion. We shall see...