Literary Fiction by People of Color discussion
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Discussion: Unburnable



Hi all
I was planning on missing this months read as it isn't in the library and I have over spent my book budget this month, already..... but after your posed question to the group I am intrigued.


William, what an important question! I was definitely taken aback. And there were many moments when I felt very uneasy. I had very visceral responses that left me grimacing and cringing. And it only got worse when I knew the details of this having been done to her by a woman and "up to the elbow." My goodness! I have to say that I'm not big on this kind of graphic stuff, but one way that I could get through this was because of the amount of attention John gives to sexual injustice more generally. I was particularly struck by the emphasis on Matilda's giving up the love of her life because he was giving sexual help to men whose wives wouldn't welcome the heightened activity (around pg 36). Attention to women's awareness of other women's sexual activity comes to the fore again around 58 in a more complicated way. And, of course, we get even more details about Matilda's understanding of that situation at the end of the novel. (I stuck with it and finished the novel.)
I was definitely uncomfortable with the graphic nature of some of this prose. I read it while in Aruba last week and found myself having random "flashbacks" of the description. Not cute! But I guess that also means that John's prose is vivid. But I guess I was committed to getting through it because she also took up some very important issues around women's sense of ethics toward each other in sexual matters. I suspect that I'll say more about this as the discussion progresses, but that gives you a sense of how I dealt with the discomfort.




For some reason, I wasn't at all put off by the first chapter. I assume living under colonization gives rise to all kinds of bizarre realities and uncomfortable (for us first worlders) choices. With limited access to real power, woman make the most of other "powers", be they sexual, religious, ceremonial, customs, decorations, etc.



William, I'd like to challenge your adjective "enfeebled" in regard to Lillian. She has been deliberately deprived of information and kept separated from her peers. She lacks basic skills and knowledge. Even so, she takes on challenges and takes actions (bringing a gift to Myrtle?!) that few would dare.


On the whole I found it very difficult to be sympathetic towards Lillian. Can a person really suffer from PTSD because a loved one tried to shelter you from learning about the trauma suffered by others?

hey rashida. i read the mac mcclelland article and i find it tremendously good. i don't think she exploits haiti or any other country at all. here it is . check it for yourself.
and here is a measured response to mac's testimonial from a group of women journalists and writers, among them edwidge danticat. they didn't quite like her piece either.
finally, a piece by another haitian writer who has read both pieces and stands up for mac.
actually, there's quite a lot written on this by women of color, white women, women journalists, etc. me, i agree entirely with raxane gay. mac mcclelland puts herself in the way of danger in order to report about human rights all the time, and her reporting is respectful, compassionate, and first-rate. in the PTSD/sex piece, she was simply talking about how she experienced things. that was her only point. in the future, she can choose to write another piece putting her experience in the context of her being a white american journalists who portrays haiti through a certain lens. it's for her to decide. this specific piece speaks uniquely about her trauma. trauma victims are entitled to their pain, whatever the political circumstances of the trauma-causing context. there are no bad traumas, you-don't-get-it traumas, get-over-it traumas, inappropriate traumas, or you-intentionally-put-yourself-in-the-way-of-danger traumas. no, no such thing, ever. trauma is legitimate in itself.
and by the way, since Unburnable is so much about trauma (and its legitimacy), race, and context, i don't think this is off topic at all.



i read on john's website that chimamanda adichie read this book on a plane and laughed all the way through. wow. i think i chuckled a few times and some passages were definitely funny, but... laugh all the way through?
humor is so subjective. if anyone else found this book funny, can you share?

If I were guessing, I would guess laughter of delight at the skill of a fellow author, but who knows?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueRwNT...
In the video, John says that she sees Iris as the strongest character in the book. Did anyone else see it that way?


The weakling here- have to agree with William and Karen. It's Lillian. Her trauma, that leads her to be so shattered she jumps off a mountain, is that her stepmother loved her. That's what it really boils down to. the one way in which I related to Teddy was the sense he had that he had to be missing something. this feeling that, there has to be some other bad thing that Lillian isn't divulging. Because her response is just out of proportion. As far as I could tell from Lillian's own introspection, it would be impossible for an American to understand her level of upset, because it is just deeply rooted in the feeling of Dominica. Like the island itself has some malevolent intention towards this family of women.
I think a large question in this book revolves around that label of insanity. At first, it is assumed that all three generations are "insane." As the story unfolds, it becomes quite clear that Matilda is as sane as they come, any indications to the contrary are cultural miscommunications. Iris still carries the "insane" label, although some of her actions have been explained and seem to not be so irrational. The final question though is Lillian. She carried that label with her when she left the island in shame, and seems to still be marked with it, judging by Myrtle's reaction to her. But, I felt that John wanted us to feel that Lillian is very sane and rational, and very empowered in making her decisions. But, if that's the case, then she's just plain unlikable. What did others think. Do we think that Lillian is mentally ill, and we should be impressed that she manages to cope and negotiate the world in the way that she has?

1. people here have been pointing out the book's (in mina's words) hypersexuality but, seriously, there isn't a single sex scene that i remember. i, for one, didn't perceive it as hypersexual. as for non-damaged sex, young iris seems to be having pretty blissful sex with her first lover, whose name, in spite of his importance in the novel, i just can't now remember.
2. i don't think lillian is weak. i think she is uprooted and terribly confused. she has a lot in her past that she can't decode. she doesn't fit in in america (john's sharp analysis of the difference between african americans and african dominicans is something we should talk about i think). she is hiding herself behind teddy and doing his work for him (for free! why?). maybe she is weak in the sense that she's not yet come into her own. in the trip back to the island, she finally comes into her own. i don't see her suicide as a sign of mental illness (i have qualms about the whole concept of mental illness anyway). i see it as doing what her maroon ancestors chose to do because it was the thing their religion dictated. you die before you become enslaved again. if you watch the video interview with marie-elena john you'll find she says that she thinks of the end liberatory. i do too.

But, jo, she's just a naive young girl being exploited by an older man! She doesn't see the relationship the way her mother did or the way the other townspeople did - she thinks they're going to get married and live happily ever after. That's just sad.
jo wrote: "i don't see her suicide as a sign of mental illness (i have qualms about the whole concept of mental illness anyway). i see it as doing what her maroon ancestors chose to do because it was the thing their religion dictated. you die before you become enslaved again. if you watch the video interview with marie-elena john you'll find she says that she thinks of the end liberatory. i do too..."
I can not see the end as a positive one. I know that John says that she sees Lillian as healed at the end. I don't see it at all.


I really, really hate the ending of this book.

There is good reason to conclude Lillian did not commit suicide. John repeatedly leads us to think one story is true, then later we discover that the truth is altogether different. It's a pervasive theme in the book. That's what I was thinking as I read the ending.
Christine wrote: "She's the only character trying to find some semblance of integration being stretched between two cultures in which both have been destructive to her sense of self and growth."
Yes! John shows us that over and over. You cannot understand what really happened until you make that stretch. Only those who have made the effort are close to understanding the truth: Matilda, Iris, Lillian, the nun, her husband. They aren't completely aware, but they get closer than most.
Those who don't make the stretch: the upper class family, Teddy, the diplomat from Africa, continue to misunderstand what is happening right before their eyes.
For more info on the MacClelland essay, Edwidge Danticat posted an article at Essence, including a letter from K* (the rape survivor Mac interviewed) and her lawyer. Both Mother Jones and MacClelland plus the Haiti aid group respond in the comment sections: http://www.essence.com/2011/07/09/edw...

I agree with everything you say in this comment, Mina. And I'm a bit surprised at the Teddy hate from other members. He seems a bit of a fool for sure. I mean these are some crazy lengths to go to for sex. But maybe he does really love her. For what, I can't say... But he's doing her a real solid here. And by the end of the book, he's one of the only people who do have a true understanding of what happened, because he was persistent in uncovering it. He dug beneath those layers, and he did it for Lillian. That is, after all, what she said she wanted. But when she started to get to the truth, she flees from it instead having the courage to confront it. She kills herself to avoid knowing more, when ostensibly the fact that she was kept in the dark is the thing that she is protesting. I can't with this one. Yeah, when I realized that the next page was "acknowledgments" and not another chapter, so I was at the end... Ooh, I wish I had a mountain to throw that book off of, myself.


However, I felt that the sex that was ever present to always had a negative aspect to it. Iris was 14, and then became a alcoholic prostitute. Lillian was "damaged" and seemed to be using sex to hurt either her partner or herself.
As an "Ethnic Catholic" I found the treatment of religion equally as troubling. The idea that a priest would essential "punish" a child but not allowing her to recieve the host on the occassion of her first communion; was absolutely inconceivable to me.
The one theme, that of a 20th century Maroon village, was the most interesting and I felt, the least explored.


True, Bill, and, of course, Matilda's cultural experience meant that she completely misjudged that relationship. Iris was not a treasured younger second wife; she was used by a selfish, unfeeling older man.

Agreed. Lack of "cross-cultural competency" is a handicapping condition for everyone. Matilda lived in one world John Baptiste and his family in another. Unfortunately, it was Iris that paid the ultimate price.


mary-alice also speaks to this book's interest in women's sexuality. hey, how about the love of mary-alice for... jeez, what's his name, mina? no violence, no brutality, just lots of love and tenderness and kids and strength.

What I took from John's description of Mary-Alice's love was that it was based on 1) her view of him as exotic and 2) her sexual repression, which she threw off upon encountering him. So, while it's free of the violence of other relationships (as Jo reminds us), I saw it as another example of the limitations caused by (in William's words) "being steeped in one culture and blind to others." I say that because, in my view, exoticizing other people is just a more "positive" form of stereotyping. So, it seems to me that the longevity of their relationship may have less to do with how much better their love/relationship is than the others that John portrays and more to do with Mary-Alice having cut herself off from other options. Especially given how abruptly Mary-Alice left the church (as Christine emphasizes), it's like John made her into a character who illustrates the old saying, "Once you go black, you never go back." I know I'm oversimplifying by making that connection, but part of what I'm saying is that I don't think John gives us ANY good relationships in this book, and I think her refusal to do so is saying something powerful and disturbing.
The question is, what is the inability to imagine good relationships in the context of this book about? John's view of the consequences of colonization, etc. or John's view of Dominica or something else?? I don't know a lot of John's other writing but--while I'm on the topic of exoticizing others--I have to say that I wondered if John paints her home, Antigua, with the same exoticizing brush that she uses for Dominica. While I continue to see value in the questions that John raises about women's ethical responsibilities to each other in sexual matters, I totally get what Wilhelmina and others are saying about how troubling they found the treatment of sexuality. So, I wonder if the oversexualizing is also linked to my question about whether John is exoticizing Dominica.






As tiny Carribean islands go, Dominica is smaller than most. I would think the culture there is not much different than most of the surrounding ones. I think that one should not take the happenings in the book to literally. I think that John has taken many parts of fables, legends and some true events from all over the Caribbean and woven her story and placed it on that island.


Yes, I think it needed to be said. I think that's part of what made me suspicious on the exoticizing issue more generally. I understand that authors can't be limited by readers' potential complaints about their work reinforcing stereotypes, but that doesn't mean that readers have to pretend that we're impressed by what amounts to annoyingly consistent patterns, not innovation and creativity.
Okay, so you don't have to feel mean because your wording is very nice compared to mine! :-)
Books mentioned in this topic
The Autobiography of My Mother (other topics)Unburnable (other topics)
Born and raised in Antigua, Marie-Elena John wasn’t considering a writing career when she left her Caribbean island for New York’s City College. There, thanks to a semester spent at the University of Nigeria, she became fascinated by the intertwined cultural commonality of the Continent, the Caribbean, and the African-American experiences. After graduating as CCNY’s first Black woman valedictorian, she went on to earn a Masters degree from Columbia University, focusing on culture and development in Africa. From a Washington D.C. base throughout the 1990s, she worked with non-profit organizations, traveling throughout Africa, first in support of grassroots development efforts, later working with pro-democracy and human rights movements, and eventually becoming best known in her field for her pioneering work on the denial of women’s inheritance rights in Africa. Recently, though, she has been channeling her vast knowledge of and passion for the African Diaspora into her dazzling literary debut, Unburnable – a multi-generational novel that powerfully brings together Caribbean history, African customs, and African-American sensibilities, published by HarperCollin’s Amistad in April 2006.
Her website also has a list of reviews and interviews as well as an interesting Q & A page.
Enjoy!