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July 2012 Read: The Case of Charles Dexter Ward
It does get tiring, even when it's not about Lovecraft.A lot of stuff that people object to in a book can be--should be--attributed to the character. Like Pappy in Huck Finn and Huck, who is condemned for regurgitating the racism he was raised with.
Anyone who'd think Mark Twain was racist obviously doesn't know the first thing about the man.
Agreed. Most people don't get satire. But tell that to the harpies wanting to yank the book out of school kids' hands because it contains the N-word.
I would never want a book modified, because it does reflect the times and attitude. It's what's going on today that matters to me.
Greg wrote: "Jason wrote: "It's not really important, that Lovecraft was a racist. It's a fact, but his time period and all that makes it sort of silly, imo. It doesn't really come up in any of his stories, but..."That's very true. Lovecraft was a very judgmental person, not just with race. As I said before, I'm certain that his aunts probably played a big role in his thoughts, because he began to change once they were gone.
Scott wrote: "Jason wrote: "Racism has been brought up with every online conversation I've ever had about Lovecraft."It gets tiresome after a while doesn't it? You really have to be oversensitive to be bother..."
Yes, it does get tiring.
But that is definitely the worst cat name in the history of cat names. LOL The sad thing is that that was actually Lovecraft's pet cat's name when he was a kid. Shows you what kind of things were said in his household when he was a kid.
Aloha wrote: "I would never want a book modified, because it does reflect the times and attitude. It's what's going on today that matters to me."I totally agree with this. If you take out the darkness of our past, you just invite it right back in.
Jason wrote: "Aloha wrote: "I would never want a book modified, because it does reflect the times and attitude. It's what's going on today that matters to me."I totally agree with this. If you take out the da..."
So, true!!!
Jason,you really know a lot about Lovecraft, very impressive. Now I know where to go if I have any questions.
Yeah, discussions about Lovecraft and his racial attitudes do get tiring since they seem to come up regularly. There are several other writers who seemed to have similar beliefs, but such discussions don't seem to follow them as much.I don't know. Part of if, I believe, is that he was such a man of contradictions. I mean its been well documented that he went on antisemitic rants, but then again, he did married a Jewish woman (although that didn't quite work out). And from some of the letters that Lovecraft wrote, he seemed to be a warm person who was more than willing to provide encouragement to aspiring writers. Robert Bloch, who is best known for writing Psycho and was Jewish, seems to have said a lot of good things about how Lovecraft encouraged him to continue writing in the letters that they wrote to each other.
Lovecraft for all of his faults ultimately, at least to me, seems much more of a misguided soul who never was able to get people instead of someone who was inherently hateful.
I haven't read Joshi's Bio yet. I did read the one written by L. Sprague de Camp which was pretty good.
The Joshi bio is really long, Oscar, but it is so worth reading if you ever get the chance. I highly recommend it!
Probably the most interesting "take" on Lovecraft's racism (interesting to me because it would probably upset both the screedmakers and the apologists) was H. P. Lovecraft: Against the World, Against Life."Horror at Red Hook" probably has the most frothing at the mouth passages, to be honest.
But then, there's always this great song
I searched for that book. It's rare and expensive.Jason wrote: "The Joshi bio is really long, Oscar, but it is so worth reading if you ever get the chance. I highly recommend it!"
That one is also expensive and rare.Shawn wrote: "Probably the most interesting "take" on Lovecraft's racism (interesting to me because it would probably upset both the screedmakers and the apologists) was [book:H. P. Lovecraft: Against the World,..."
People talk about Lovecraft's era as though it was 600 years ago, when somehow people didn't know what "racism" was and racist or xenophobic attitudes could be forgiven because history hadn't quite caught up with them. Didn't HPL die in the late 1930s, hardly that long ago. His racism was probably a result of ignorance and a sheltered existence, less virulent than other strains perhaps. But I think it's important to his work, in the sense that it's possible to see HPL's distaste for others in the way he describes the various "evil" races or the way he describes the "degenerate" features of people like the villagers of Innsmouth, etc. So I think we don't need to downplay his xenophobia and racist attitudes, while still acknowledging what a great horror writer/innovator he was.
By the way, I think this kind of "racism" can be seen throughout genres like science fiction and horror. For instance, it's conventional in science fiction to attribute the same characteristics to every member of a species. In fact, science fiction often uses the term "race" when it means "species" (the "human race," for example). The hierarchy in something like Planet of the Apes has an underlying racism to it: all the gorillas are thugs and enforcers; all the chimpanzees are scientists, etc. In short, the same characteristics are attributed to every member of "the race" without exception. We can see the same thing in other examples: all Klingons are warlike, all Ferengi are sly, etc. I'm not saying that any of the creators/writers/producers of this material are "racists" but that racist conceptions persist through popular works. We don't have to excuse HPL's racism, nor do we have to reject him outright, I think.
By the way, I think this kind of "racism" can be seen throughout genres like science fiction and horror. For instance, it's conventional in science fiction to attribute the same characteristics to every member of a species. In fact, science fiction often uses the term "race" when it means "species" (the "human race," for example). The hierarchy in something like Planet of the Apes has an underlying racism to it: all the gorillas are thugs and enforcers; all the chimpanzees are scientists, etc. In short, the same characteristics are attributed to every member of "the race" without exception. We can see the same thing in other examples: all Klingons are warlike, all Ferengi are sly, etc. I'm not saying that any of the creators/writers/producers of this material are "racists" but that racist conceptions persist through popular works. We don't have to excuse HPL's racism, nor do we have to reject him outright, I think.
I finished this morning.I thought the beginning was a little slow but it helped me get used to his style of writing. Like I said before, I found myself having to go back and reread passages to make sense of things.
I think that once it got into the Curwen story, it really started to get suspensful. I think Jason mentioned earlier about the "raiders" not wanting to talk about what they saw. When I read this I kept wanting to know what it was but I think this was a really great part of his writing.
I really enjoyed the story overall and will definitely read more of his stories. At some point, I'm sure I will read this again to try and catch some of the things I missed the first time.
I finished it up last night. I think I'm on the same page as Jason. I did have to fight my way through the first half of the story, but after that I was pretty hooked on it. Though, It didn't creep me out (sorry, Mike honey) it was intriguing. I believe I'll read more of his work.
I am glad that I finally read a book by HP Lovecraft. It was definitely a different style of writing that I'm use too. The ending of the book was great, never saw that one coming. The Curwen was also my favorite part of the book.
Reading this story a second time was much better than the first. The first time I read this story, I was recovering from minor surgery and on painkillers. I almost hated the story. I couldn't follow it.This time, though, it flowed brilliantly in my mind. I loved it. The ending was so much more clear, too.
Moral of the story: do not read Lovecraft while on pain medications. LOL
I just finished. As usual it was a very good story. My favorite parts are when Dr. Willett was exploring the house and below, where all the horrific objects were. It was very creepy. I would love to read about the life of H P Lovecraft. I really don't know much, but he seems to know his Alchemy, and Occult. He must have dabbled in them...don't ya think? Does anybody know?
Trisha wrote: "I finished it up last night. I think I'm on the same page as Jason. I did have to fight my way through the first half of the story, but after that I was pretty hooked on it. Though, I didn't creep ..."You should be ashamed of yourself! How do you not feel creepy! You need to stand in the corner! Why am I using exclamation points after every statement!
Mike wrote: "Trisha wrote: "I finished it up last night. I think I'm on the same page as Jason. I did have to fight my way through the first half of the story, but after that I was pretty hooked on it. Though, ..."I don't feel creepy because I'm not wearing your skin as a hat.
Everyone can see our posts, dear. Time to stop before you get us kicked out! <3
Ah, love at Horrors. They're probably one of those cute couples that do a matched Halloween theme.
Whatever...leatherface...
Aloha wrote: "Ah, love at Horrors. They're probably one of those cute couples that do a matched Halloween theme."Lol. How did you guess...
Aloha wrote: "Ah, love at Horrors. They're probably one of those cute couples that do a matched Halloween theme."This year I'm going to have him dress up as Gargamel. Just because he makes me feel blue.... Ahahaha.
This is about Lovecraft, not Smurfs.
LOL. Gargamel and Smurfette. I can see that.
Lol we took this discussion way off track. Ahahaha
Well, since some of you peeps brought up Smurfs, and I do appreciate a digression every now and then, let me tell you guys about some lame urban tale I heard growing up, lol!So in this story, some girl was going to have a birthday party and her parents bought her a smurf pinata. She liked it so much that she wanted to have it in her room that night. So as legend has it, during the night, the smurf came to life and attacked the girl. It's one of those silly stories that I used to hear all the time and still remember. Smurfs, in my opinion, ARE creepy.
Oh, yeah, so how about that Lovecraft fellow? ;)
I am on page 90. I will finish it tonight.
Eileen wrote: "I am glad that I finally read a book by HP Lovecraft. It was definitely a different style of writing that I'm use too. The ending of the book was great, never saw that one coming. The Curwen was ..."It suprises me that people didn't see the end coming a mile away since... (view spoiler)
I think we understand you didn't like the story, Nora. Eileen, I agree with you. I was pleased with it.
Trisha wrote: "I think we understand you didn't like the story, Nora. Eileen, I agree with you. I was pleased with it."It's not about liking or disliking the story, the comment I made but about being suprised over people being suprised by the end. I have been suprised people didn't see the end coming in books I have read that I did like as well.
ETA: that I don't see the correlation between the statement I had made and my feelings about the novel. Explain?
Those who enjoyed reading it should check out the Dan O'Bannon directed film THE RESURRECTED from 1992. Yes, things get changed but a lot of DEXTER WARD is still intact (the scene with the things in the pits is excellent). I consider it one of the better Lovecraft adaptations and like it better than Corman's THE HAUNTED PALACE with Vincent Price (that' saying something right there as Price is almost always a selling point for me).
Thanks Shawn.....I looked it up and it is on Netflix and it can be streamed too! So I will be able to watch this later this week.
Shawn wrote: "Those who enjoyed reading it should check out the Dan O'Bannon directed film THE RESURRECTED from 1992. Yes, things get changed but a lot of DEXTER WARD is still intact (the scene with the things ..."Thanks for the heads up. We will definitely check it out!
I've seen The Resurrected and have to agree. It is a great adaptation. I haven't yet seen The Haunted Palace; I must remedy this soon! I love Price...
Mike wrote: "I just finished. As usual it was a very good story. My favorite parts are when Dr. Willett was exploring the house and below, where all the horrific objects were. It was very creepy. I would ..."
I read Joshi's bio on Lovecraft, and I really doubt that Lovecraft was involved in alchemy and/or the occult. This is a common rumor, though, so who knows. I think it's more a credit to his writing that people would think that, though.
I also thought that that scene below the house was very creepy, too. It's one of my favorite scenes!
I forgot about The Haunted Palace, lol!Yeah, now that I do remember it is based on Lovecraft's story, but somewhat loosely similar to how the Corman/Prince Poe films draw from the short stories.
I actually own The Haunted Palace, but I am too lazy to look for it. Remember peeps, an organized DVD collection pays dividends. ;)
There was a bit on Lovecraft on the BBC Clive Barker A-Z of horror series that came out years ago. And a Lovecraft scholar said that for a while people in Providence did not want to talk about Lovecraft and not because they thought that he was dabbling in the occult, but because they thought he was crazy, lol!Yeah, from what I have read it seems that Lovecraft read a LOT about the occult and alchemy, but he probably didn't really believe in it, but was just interested in it and used in as a means to inspire several of his stories.
I agree, Oscar. Lovecraft might have been crazy, but he was certainly an athiest.
Indeed, Lovecraft was not into the occult himself. But he always did a lot of research and paid a lot of attention to detail which is perhaps why he conveys the impression that he has an intimate knowledge of such things.
Shawn wrote: "Those who enjoyed reading it should check out the Dan O'Bannon directed film THE RESURRECTED from 1992. Yes, things get changed but a lot of DEXTER WARD is still intact (the scene with the things ..."I just watched his a couple of months ago. It's really good. If you have Netflix Streaming, it's (or it was) available.
Nora wrote: "Eileen wrote: "I am glad that I finally read a book by HP Lovecraft. It was definitely a different style of writing that I'm use too. The ending of the book was great, never saw that one coming. ..."Nora, now I have to go back and reread, how did I miss that?
Nora wrote: "Trisha wrote: "I think we understand you didn't like the story, Nora...--------------
It's not about liking or disliking the story, the comment I made but about being suprised over people being suprised by the end. I have been suprised people didn't see the end coming in books I have read that I did like as well.
ETA: that I don't see the correlation between the statement I had made and my feelings about the novel. Explain? "
Still waiting for that explanatiom.
Horror Aficionados
Books mentioned in this topic
H.P. Lovecraft: Against the World, Against Life (other topics)H.P. Lovecraft: A Life (other topics)
Naomi's Room (other topics)
The Woman in White (other topics)
Storm Front (other topics)
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It gets tiresome after a while doesn't it? You really have to be oversensitive to be bothered by most of it. The only thing I can recall that seemed really jarring to me was the name of the protagonist's cat in "The Rats in the Walls."
Also, many of the stories are written in the form of journal entries, so readers can attribute it to his characters if it makes them feel better.