Koontzland - Dean Koontz discussion
Dean's Writing & Story Elements
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Objects, Places or Characters Koontz carries through several novels
Masha wrote: "He has a problem with science being used for evil (a lot of times inadvertently, out of arrogance, and sometimes on purpose). Just like he has a recurring theme of "evil" artists, in pretty much th..."Yeah, but when was the last time he came out and said that in his books, like he has with everything else? Where is the scientist that shows us how Koontz thinks they should be?
We see a lot of Dylans (Door to Dec.), Victors Helioses, Brother Johns, and Salsburys, Ahrimans, and Kirbys and not much of anything else. If I were Jason, I'd be more than a little bit pissed at this point. I'd be creeped out.
I mean, how would he liked if he followed an author for a decade or two, only to realize that Christians were ALWAYS the bad guys? That they were always arrogant and knew everything because only their way is true and had no remorse for the lives they destroyed because "if they're innocent" they have nothing to fear. No neutrality. No counter-point character (I wrote a book with a religious jerk who has an argument with a compassionate reverend). None of that for my rhetorical author. The Christians are just flat out Evil (with a capital E of course). Every. Single. Time. That wouldn't just be bad. That would be borderline psychotic.
Christopher wrote: "We see a lot of Dylans (Door to Dec.), Victors Helioses, Brother Johns, and Salsburys, Ahrimans, and Kirbys and not much of anything else. If I were Jason, I'd be more than a little bit pissed at this point. I'd be creeped out. I mean, how would he liked if he followed an author for a decade or two, only to realize that Christians were ALWAYS the bad guys?..."I like you, Christopher. :-) You might be interested to know that I wrote Koontz a letter last summer to ask the second question that you just posed. In the beginning, I figured Dr. Kirby Ignis would finally be that character, but we all know how that turned out. The guy was a theist (he had contempt for Norquist partly because Norquist was an atheist), he loved dogs, lived a relatively simple life (in the sense that his lifestyle was not reflective of his position at his tech company), and listened to Italian opera in Chinese, for Pete's sake! To be honest, I kind of wonder if Koontz named Witness "Jason" because of my letter (which can be found verbatim in this thread: http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/3...), to which Koontz sent a thorough (1.5-page) reply, along with a signed copy of one of his books. He said he has created such "good" scientist characters in the black female physicist from Sole Survivor, the black male mathematician in Breathless, and the old British male anthropologist from Phantoms. My counterargument to that is that the first performed horrible experiments on psychic children before realizing the error of her ways and helping one escape, the second is a MATHEMATICIAN, which is not even close to a scientist, and the third was considered a crackpot who wrote books about the supernatural causes of mass disappearances and agreed to be the villain monster's zealot documentarian. Would anyone here consider any of those scientist characters to be "good," particularly in a Koontzian sense of the word?
Oh yes, I actually saw that. Honestly, I would actually side with him in the case of the physicist. I didn't read or really look at reviews for Sole Survivor. The physicist seems like an unusual Koontz character; she was bad, saw the error of her ways, and then got better? Usually the bad guys stay bad and good guys stay good.
I won't let him have the mathematician though. Based on reviews he was only there to make lame arguments against evolution. "Fossils don't prove anything. People just BELIEVE they are related."
Never heard THAT one before...
Cops are OK. Not the Feds, but street cops. Landscapers, painters, anything blue collar I guess.By the way, my husband is in academia, but I couldn't agree more on DK's view of it. Let's just say The Face gave me nightmares for a while.
Autistic, Downs Syndrome or physically disabled kids are very common in Dean's books, Regina in Hideaway being probably my favourite child character.
Masha wrote: "Cops are OK. Not the Feds, but street cops. Landscapers, painters, anything blue collar I guess.By the way, my husband is in academia, but I couldn't agree more on DK's view of it. Let's just s..."
I don't agree at all. I believe in One Door he said that academics teach about life but live a pale imitation of it, or something to that effect. Completely untrue. Once again how would he like it if--
[gets tackled by Dustin Crazy Owl]
All kidding aside, I think he graduated college. I wonder how much of this is because of bad experiences he's had with professors (I know a couple friends who've had professors where you honestly can't tell their head from their behind) and how much of it is because he's conservative and doesn't like that fact that many of them are not.
I've had awesome professors in college, and obviously I love my husband and think he's a great human being. But people who spend their whole life in academia (going from college straight to grad studies to teaching) do sometimes lose sight of what the real world is like, along with their common sense. They are surrounded by students who mostly listen to them and respect them (or at least pretend to). They are tenured and so pretty much can't get fired. So unless they make a consious effort to connect with the real world, either through outside work or through developing true relationships with different people, it's easy to become an arrogant jerk. From there, it's not that far to contempt for "the masses" and doing real damage. Back to my earlier point, intellect disconnected from morality (religious or otherwise) is a dangerous thing.
Christopher wrote: "...Honestly, I would actually side with him in the case of the physicist. I didn't read or really look at reviews for Sole Survivor. The physicist seems like an unusual Koontz character; she was bad, saw the error of her ways, and then got better? Usually the bad guys stay bad and good guys stay good...."Yes, she did reform herself eventually (to be honest myself, she is one of my favorite characters from Koontz's novels), but can she truly be considered "good" in the Koontzian sense when she spent so much time performing torturous experiments on innocent children? There's only so much one can come back from. In reality, would anyone consider a person who had tortured children for a living, then changed her ways, to be a "good" person overall?
Dany wrote: "...What professions are most often mentioned as the good guys?..."In addition to those already listed by others, ex-soldiers and writers also come quickly to mind. Artists have been both. I would argue that not just a majority of his scientists have been villains, but all of them have been, to some degree or another. Certainly none has been a hero like his typical protagonists have been.
Christopher wrote: "...I wonder how much of this is because of bad experiences he's had with professors...and how much of it is because he's conservative and doesn't like that fact that many of them are not...."I think you might be onto something there. Though I think those two factors might be only part of the reason, the other main one being a genuine fear he has of scientific progress that might lead to what he views as a very negative change in the state of humanity.
Masha wrote: "I've had awesome professors in college, and obviously I love my husband and think he's a great human being. But people who spend their whole life in academia (going from college straight to grad st..."That might be true about some academicians, but I would argue that it is likely a very small number. There are people like that in all walks of life, so, of course, some academicians are going to be that way too. Also, I don't want to get into a philosophical discussion in this forum, so I'll suffice to say that everyone has a subjective morality, it's just that an individual's subjective morality might not agree with that of another given individual or with that of society's collective subjective morality.
@Jason (#65): Not "good" maybe, but certainly redeemed. Just like Jason the Witness is redeemed. One can argue that someone who is redeemed through good deeds actually becomes a better person than someone who has always been innocent.
For the record, Dean Koontz politically is a libertarian, not a conservative. You can't read a book like DRotH and conclude otherwise. And if you think his scientist are baddies, the Feds are way worse.
Masha wrote: "For the record, Dean Koontz politically is a libertarian, not a conservative. You can't read a book like DRotH and conclude otherwise. And if you think his scientist are baddies, the Feds are way worse."Yes, that's definitely correct, he is a Libertarian, but Libertarians are also often conservative, though not always. "Conservative" and "liberal" are just descriptions of one's political ideology, not party affiliations like Republican, Democrat, or Libertarian. His views on science are certainly conservative, not only in the political sense, but in the purest meaning of the word. As for the Feds being way worse than his scientist characters, he does feature them as villains more often, it seems, but I don't recall a Fed character ever destroying the world.
Roy Miro, given time, would come pretty darn close.The group in Relentless was government funded. So was the group behind Ahriman and the Sole Survivor baddies. I don't mean just the FBI. The same idea, though, as with the baddie scientists-arrogance and desire to "improve the world" no matter what the cost.
Masha wrote: "@Jason (#65): Not "good" maybe, but certainly redeemed. Just like Jason the Witness is redeemed. One can argue that someone who is redeemed through good deeds actually becomes a better person than ..."I would agree with you on that. A person who has tread the lines would have a better understanding of why they are making the decisions that they are, as opposed to people who are just raised good.
Masha wrote: "For the record, Dean Koontz politically is a libertarian, not a conservative. You can't read a book like DRotH and conclude otherwise. And if you think his scientist are baddies, the Feds are way w..."I could argue with you on conservative vs. libertarian, but I would be going WAY off topic from the purposes of this thread. A PM maybe?
Christopher wrote: "Masha wrote: "For the record, Dean Koontz politically is a libertarian, not a conservative. You can't read a book like DRotH and conclude otherwise. And if you think his scientist are baddies, the ..."I think Jason sort of covered that already a couple of posts ago, and I don't really disagree with what he said. I mostly was objecting to the implication that as a conservative Koontz would hold antipathy towards the academia because it's full of liberals. Most artists are liberals too, and Koontz artist characters are pretty evenly split. If you want to get more into the conservative/libertarian stuff, though, PM away!
Dany wrote: "Would that be Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde? I don't mean that!"LOL we know you didn't!
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Yes. The character of Walter Bishop on my favorite TV Show Fringe is exactly that. I would consider him a good person overall even though he did experiments on children in the past.
Part of it, I would think, what other group of people are in a position to use what they know in ways that can go horribly wrong? Of course not all scientists are egomaniacs hell bent on world domination but they would definitely get farther if they were than say a librian. Sure politicians and military people but who makes their weapons of mass distruction? scientists do. I'm not against science or scientist since they are the reason most of us won't get polio and that's a good thing but I can see the potential for letting science overide humanity. Sorry I get wordy when I'm tired.
Nora aka Diva wrote: "Part of it, I would think, what other group of people are in a position to use what they know in ways that can go horribly wrong? Of course not all scientists are egomaniacs hell bent on world dom..."No, I think you guys are bringing up very good points actually. Another thing to consider is the issue of lawful evil vs. chaotic evil. When making a lawful evil character (think any flavor of dictator) I can see why some people would think scientists. They tend to have to have to do things a certain way, which might lead to rigid thinking depending on personality traits. That and they have resources.
Still I just wish every scientist wasn't evil in his books.
Christopher wrote: "Still I just wish every scientist wasn't evil in his books..."I can understand that sentiment completely.
Dustin Crazy little brown owl wrote: "Yes. The character of Walter Bishop on my favorite TV Show Fringe is exactly that. I would consider him a good person overall even though he did experiments on children in the past."Sadly, Fringe is not reality, though you are correct that Dr. Bishop is another perfect fictional example of this. I feel ambivalent about Dr. Bishop. Though my sentimental side wants to excuse all his past deeds, I don't know that it should necessarily work that way. A reality-based example I've come up with is that of the Nazi scientist who is notorious for his brutal experiments on children (mostly Jewish children), Dr. Mengele. Would anyone here with children allow Dr. Mengele to babysit his/her children if Dr. Mengele had realized the errors of his ways, fled Germany with one of his child subjects, and sincerely promised that he would never experiment on children again?
Nora aka Diva wrote: "Part of it, I would think, what other group of people are in a position to use what they know in ways that can go horribly wrong? Of course not all scientists are egomaniacs hell bent on world dom..."Sure. No one is arguing against the fact that scientists can do evil things, just like any other human, but the argument is rather that Koontz has yet to portray a scientist character as "good" in the Koontzian sense.
Christopher wrote: "...Still I just wish every scientist wasn't evil in his books."Exactly my point.
Jason "plasborgma" wrote: "Sure. No one is arguing against the fact that scientists can do evil things, just like any other human, but the argument is rather that Koontz has yet to portray a scientist character as "good" in the Koontzian sense..."Would that be very interesting?
I think & I am guessing here is that the closest you'll find is the scientist who after taken the wrong path in life realizes the error in their ways and try to redeem themselves.
Nora aka Diva wrote: "...I think & I am guessing here is that the closest you'll find is the scientist who after taken the wrong path in life realizes the error in their ways and try to redeem themselves."I certainly hope that's not the case. I don't see why a great Koontz story couldn't have a scientist as its typical Koontzian "good" hero. Most scientists in reality are people who work tirelessly to seek truth in nature, to solve puzzles, and to benefit humanity. Most of us could not cause the destruction of humanity even if we wanted to. For example, my laboratory studies the brains of people with autism to learn about how they develop differently from the brains of typically developing individuals, which can lead to a better understanding of autism and potential treatments or even a cure. Given Koontz's penchant for including characters with autism, Down syndrome, and other developmental disabilities in his stories, why not have a "good" (in the Koontzian sense) scientist character who is trying to help such individuals through science? I kind of like the idea posed earlier about having such a character opposing a typical evil Koontzian scientist.
like I said I was just guessing but historically speaking that's what you find in Koontz works. You gotta wonder if sometime during his life he was deeply affected in a negative way by some scientist of sorts and it's how he works through his anger. Of course I have no idea. That just me pondering.Of course I also wonder about Jodi Picoults Mommy issues that plague her novels. lol.
Nora aka Diva wrote: "...You gotta wonder if sometime during his life he was deeply affected in a negative way by some scientist of sorts and it's how he works through his anger...."I doubt it, as we're pretty harmless and I can't imagine how he would have had much contact with any scientist. :-P
Well unless it was family.Besides everyone knows it engineers that are the real evil in this world. lol.
Nora aka Diva wrote: "...Besides everyone knows it engineers that are the real evil in this world. lol."Indeed! After all, they're the ones who create the technology based on the scientific knowledge we generate. :-)
Plus I almost got into a hammer fight with a structural engineer. I deal with engineers at work too, omg p.i.t.a they are!
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Mark wrote: "Every bad guy comes equiped with a Lockaid lock release gun."The O'Connor from the Frankenstein series used one in the 1st book.
Dustin Crazy little brown owl wrote: "Walter Bishop is real Jason! He exists in 3 realities so far that I know of."All the cool people exist in FOUR realities Dustin.[sticks out tongue]
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Dustin Crazy little brown owl wrote: "My buddy Walter is probably in more alternate realities, I am just not aware of them yet, so there!"Many physicists would argue that he (if he were real), like everyone else, inhabits an infinite number of parallel realities.
Dustin Crazy little brown owl wrote: "My buddy Walter is probably in more alternate realities, I am just not aware of them yet, so there!"GASP!
Maerhys wrote: "With writers and artists, however, I think you have to be a specific *sort* of writer and/or artist. I really enjoy his artistic characters a lot, but I've noticed that they're very Western traditionalists if they're visual artists, primarily hyper-realists with a touch of surrealism seems to be the most common, but absolutely nothing even close to modern artists (who are usually considered to be left of center politically).... "These are some very good observations and arguments. Have you written about Koontz and his writing academically?
Someone may already have addressed this but I have always been curious about Dean's quotes from "The Book of Counted Sorrow". Is this something Dean wrote to create background quotes for his books? Is it something that really exists.
Did you catch the subtle homage/reference he made to Watchers at the end of Lightning?Stephen Kings books are all connected in a way (at least 80% of them anyways)
Because it's been a while since I read Lightning could you mention it here? The biggest connections I am watching for are between Christopher Snow and Odd Thomas.
Stephen: What reference/homage did you find between Watchers and Lightning? Its a while ago since I've read that two books and I would be glad to know, what you find out! :)
Markus - Dont want to spoil it for others but at the end of Lightning he mentions the San Fran establishment that was very crucial to the end if Watchers and the Hitman character.
Anyone notice he always mentions coconut? Coconut granola bar, coconut scented soap, coconut cherry chocolate chunk ice cream...
I didn't notice that Ky. I love coconut.
OOOh good observation Ky. I realize most of his novels are set in Southern California, however he mentions Barstow, California a lot, particularly in the Odd books. It always stands out for me because I have an on-line friend who lives in Barstow.
Charlotte wrote: "I loved how Mystery Train had a cameo in both the Christopher Snow series (a ball cap he found with the words mystery train stitched to the front) as well as the Odd Thomas series (a shirt he wears..."Did you notice that the Odd Interludes was a storyline based on a person that came from Wyvern facility.. Man oh man I wish Odd and Chris would meet. Got my finger crossed on that...
Koontzland - Dean Koontz
Books mentioned in this topic
Red Dragon (other topics)Breathless (other topics)
The Good Guy (other topics)
Watchers (other topics)
The Good Guy (other topics)
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If someone starts a new thread please post a link to the new thread in this one so people can follow you there. Also, the new thread should go in the Writing & Story Elements folder (the same folder as this current thread) Thanks.