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10. A DISTANT MIRROR... August 22nd ~ August 28th ~~ Part Two - Chapters SIXTEEN and SEVENTEEN (320 - 364) - No Spoilers Please
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What interesting chapters. During the discussion of the Papal Schism, I spent a minute mentally comparing what I was reading with today's Catholic church. I am no expert in Catholicism, but today's pope(s) do not seem to be anything like the pope(s) of the 14th century. Just worlds apart. And comparing, say, Mother Theresa with Catherine of Siena? Again, one finds it hard to acknowledge that it is the same church.Reading this book I am gaining a much better perspective on the value of political marriages. Mostly we hear of such things these days through the "forced" marriage of fairy tale type stories. Not that I agree with arranged marriages, but I at least have more of an understanding of why state leaders would marry mere children to each other. I like the point that Tuchman makes on page 322, "The political resources of a prince with 36 living children were far-reaching."
And we finally read about the end of the infamous Charles of Navarre and his "compulsive plotting" (page 347). What a man. One gets the impression that even if everyone gave him everything he wanted or asked for, he'd still find a way to stir up some trouble just for the fun of it.
And then we get Montfort, also described as "a habitual double-dealer" (page 364). If he lived in the 20th century, would he have been the proverbial used-car salesman?
It was interesting to read Tuchman's analysis of Coucy's refusal to be the Constable. I like how she clearly explained what the Constable was and walked us through the various possibilities as to why Coucy didn't take the position.
Mod
It does seem a shame that the children were not ever consulted growing up in terms of what they wanted out of life.
Tuchman is very thorough; I do not find her as readable as let us say Doris Kearns Goodwin but good nonetheless.
Doris Kearns Goodwin
As a Catholic, reading about the Schism (to say nothing of the papal shenanigans throughout this period AND the Renaissance!) was/is very painful. I'd studied it in a Renaissance history class at 17 and boy, what an eye-opener for a just-graduated-from-Catholic-school girl that was. (Aside: that class began with the 14th century - hard to decide whether it is "Middle Ages" or "Renaissance," I guess, though those categories are simply the creations of historians.)Definitely, the papacy is quite different today! IIRC, Tuchman observes that it was property and political power that led to the greatest abuses of the papal office - the need to raise funds to pay armies to defend the Papal States, etc. In general, Christianity becomes more authentic the less "worldly power" it wields, IMHO.
As to Catherine of Siena, I found Tuchman's account a bit distorted. Catherine also cared for the poor & sick; I felt that Tuchman emphasized the qualities we would find most bizarre today (such as what we'd surely look upon as anorexia!). IIRC, she was a peace negotiator in other contexts also. I haven't read deeply about Catherine's life (just one not-very-scholarly biography, many years ago) but this section made me curious to know more.
The contrast between the medieval and contemporary attitudes toward childhood is a theme running throughout the book, isn't it. Clearly royalty were no more sentimental about their children than the peasantry - they were useful pawns in the dynastic power plays!
Mary Ellen wrote: "As a Catholic, reading about the Schism (to say nothing of the papal shenanigans throughout this period AND the Renaissance!) was/is very painful. I'd studied it in a Renaissance history class at ..."Hi Mary Ellen
Just a small comment - I do believe that the 14th century began with the middle ages and that the Rennaissance began only a couple of decades or so after the plague (1348- 1352). That would have been my thought before but I just returned from a trip to Italy and there were in museums references to 1370 - 1380.
I once before mentioned, I think it was before this and I am trying to be very careful not to be a spoiler reading these after three weeks plus away, that Tuchman seemed to be somewhat influenced by her Judism and maybe for you, raised a Catholic, the overall effect takes a different perspective.
Mod
I'm grateful to read your comments here, Mary Ellen. It is nice to hear things from the Catholic perspective as well as what Tuchman wrote. I especially like your comment: 'In general, Christianity becomes more authentic the less "worldly power" it wields, IMHO.' This may be applicable to any religion, I think.It is also helpful to read your take on Catherine of Siena. Good to know she wasn't merely the crazed woman. I think Tuchman does mention some of Catherine's other positive qualities, but the bizarre is certainly discussed more, and definitely finds it's way to center stage in one's memory. As we've mentioned before (and Tuchman has mentioned), it is the different, the strange, the unfamiliar, that is "interesting."
So true, Elizabeth! But I think the less weird (to us) aspects of Catherine's story are also unusual... That she could pester Popes as much as she did, and have a whole group of people of both genders looking to her for spiritual guidance, and that she would have been asked by warring cities to act as mediator...and that she did all this as a woman in the 14th century, is all pretty unusual. Perhaps a century later, she'd have been accused of bewitching them all!
It was definitely harder for a woman to take center stage in those days. I think today that is still true in some areas, but not as universally.
The History Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
A Distant Mirror: The Calamitous 14th Century (other topics)Authors mentioned in this topic
Doris Kearns Goodwin (other topics)Barbara W. Tuchman (other topics)
For the week of August 22nd - August 28th, we are reading approximately the next 44 pages of A Distant Mirror: The Calamitous 14th Century by Barbara W. Tuchman.
The tenth week's reading assignment is:
Week Ten - August 22nd – August 28th -> Chapters SIXTEEN and PART TWO – SEVENTEEN p. 320 – 364
SIXTEEN – The Papal Schism and PART TWO – SEVENTEEN – Coucy’s Rise
We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.
This book was kicked off on June 20th. We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle.
There is time still remaining to obtain the book and get started.
There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.
Welcome,
~Bentley
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