9. A DISTANT MIRROR... August 15th ~ August 21st ~~ Part One - Chapters FOURTEEN and FIFTEEN (284 - 319) - No Spoilers Please

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Hello Everyone,

For the week of August 15th - August 14th, we are reading approximately the next 35 pages of A Distant Mirror: The Calamitous 14th Century by Barbara W. Tuchman.

The ninth week's reading assignment is:

Week Nine - August 15th - August 21st -> PART ONE - Chapters FOURTEEN and FIFTEEN p. 284 - 319
FOURTEEN - England's Turmoil and FIFTEEN - The Emperor in Paris

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book was kicked off on June 20th. We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle.

There is time still remaining to obtain the book and get started.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Welcome,

~Bentley


TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL



by Barbara W. Tuchman

[Theresa]

I was really fascinated by John Wyclif and his contribution to what would centuries later surface as the Protestant Reformation. Martin Luther and Henry VIII get most of the acclaim for setting events in motion, but their ideas were not necessarily new. Centuries earlier Wyclif nailed his thesis on to the church door and he was against the papacy.

We also got more details on Isabella, Coucy's wife, in chapter 14. As soon as her father the King died, she and Coucy decided to separate. Interesting that after her separation she still didn't have control of her finances. Not that she couldn't by law, but she had such poor money-management skills her brothers became her trustee's to keep her out of trouble. Tuchman doesn't say but I believe her brothers were not as tolerant of her wild spending habits as her father.

[Vincent]

What I seem to see here is the real wealth of the ruling class. The jockeying for position and for allies is very interesting.

The entertainment, as common, but at a zenith at the visit of the Emperor to King Charles is mind opening.

But I am curious (joke - I think) if Nicolas Oresme, the astrologer and mathematician could have been an ancestor of Freud (page 319) "Oresme suggest that the source of demons and specters could be the disease of melancholy."

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Great comments Theresa and Vince.

[Elizabeth S]

Theresa, it was interesting for me to read about John Wycliffe too. I have read and heard about him a little in relation to his contributions to the translation of the Bible into English. (For example, Wide as the Waters by Benson Bobrick.)

by Anonymous (listed as by Anonymous by goodreads as a compromise)
by Benson Bobrick

So it was interesting to me to read about Wycliffe more from the historical perspective.

[Elizabeth S]

As far as Isabella's finances being in the control of her brothers, I'm glad that Tuchman took care to explain that it wasn't that she was a woman, it was that she was a financially irresponsible woman. Good to know that it wasn't really a discrimination thing. (Although one suspects that a man who spent as Isabella did would not have had his property put in a guardianship. He probably would have been allowed to spend himself into ruin.)

[Elizabeth S]

Vince wrote: "...But I am curious (joke - I think) if Nicolas Oresme, the astrologer and mathematician could have been an ancestor of Freud (page 319) 'Oresme suggest that the source of demons and specters could be the disease of melancholy.'"

Nice one, Vince. We only get this one little paragraph on page 319 about one of the few people of sense in the century. (In fairness, I should point out that I'm using "sense" as defined by today's standards.)

The part that really hits me is that Oresme "was highly esteemed by the same King in whose employ the astrologer Thomas of Pisano fashioned wax images to destroy the English" (page 319). To me, and perhaps to most people today, Oresme and Thomas of Pisano are mutually exclusive. Interesting that both were employed by the same master.

[Elizabeth S]

Other thoughts:

Page 291 had a couple of gems, in my opinion. Tuchman describes Lancaster's wealth and position, then summarizes with "in short, he possessed all the attributes of power and riches necessary for unpopularity." I thought that was worth a laugh for its ironic truth.

Also on page 291: "What counts is not so much the fact as what the public perceives to be the fact." We see this a lot today in politics and the media. Truth does not matter as much as what people believe to be the truth.

I like how Tuchman gives a little attention to the well-known historical figures of the age such as Chaucer. It helps fit the century into what I already know. I also appreciate her explanation as to why poets and writers were used in diplomacy situations (see page 298). It makes a lot of sense. Kinda why an actor can make a good politician. :)

For anyone who wants to know more about Amy Robsart, mentioned in the footnote on page 302, you may enjoy the historical fiction Kenilworth by Sir Walter Scott:

by Walter Scott

EDIT: Just realized I forgot Chaucer's link:
Geoffrey Chaucer

[Elizabeth S]

More other thoughts:

On page 308 Tuchman answers a question I didn't even know I had: "The Emperor was in fact in the last year of his life, and perhaps anticipating death, as people did in a time of few remedies or cures..." In a lot of stories and histories, people seem to "know" they are dying, and I've mostly chalked it up to dramatic license. But it makes sense that, without many remedies and cures, people would more often be aware of there last days. With modern medicine, we expect to be healed so much that just being sick and in the hospital doesn't rush us to someone's bedside.

All the pomp and ceremony for the Emperor is fascinating. I thought Tuchman did a nice job inserting a few pages on plays--at least it seemed a logical placement to me. "Subject matter was religious, but manner was secular, designed for entertainment" (page 312). After all, when you want to be moralized at, that is what church is for. (Although some church services are/were more entertaining than religious.)

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Elizabeth S wrote: "As far as Isabella's finances being in the control of her brothers, I'm glad that Tuchman took care to explain that it wasn't that she was a woman, it was that she was a financially irresponsible w..."

Very true Elizabeth; there is always still a double standard even to the present day. Shouldn't be but there still is.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Elizabeth S wrote: "Other thoughts:

Page 291 had a couple of gems, in my opinion. Tuchman describes Lancaster's wealth and position, then summarizes with "in short, he possessed all the attributes of power and riche..."

Great post Elizabeth and I love your gems.

[Mary Ellen]

Elizabeth, you are helping me enjoy, again, Tuchman's witticisms!

@ Theresa #2: I'd imagine her brothers were much less tolerant than her doting dad! After all, the distribution of parental resources is a zero-sum game, and she seemed to be getting much more than her fair share. Not that the Black Prince didn't waste plenty with some of his pointless military expeditions, of course! (In which lives AND money were lost!) But the people who really had a right to be outraged by her spendthrift ways were the peasantry whose hard labor was the ultimate source of her spending money...

I associated Wycliffe with the Bible translation and thought that that was what got him into trouble -- the Church thinking the common people wouldn't be up to reading the Bible on their own. (As someone who has studied the Bible a bit, I'd say they're right on that one, though perhaps for different reasons! We all need a guide when delving into a 2,000 year old text! Disclosure: I'm Catholic.) Now I see that the translation was the least of it.

[Elizabeth S]

Interesting, Mary Ellen, to compare Isabelle's spending with the Black Prince's. Somehow, fighting a war doesn't seem as self-centered as extravagant personal spending. And yet it really is, isn't it. As you said, war is actually worse because it was a waste of lives and money. I'm trying to think what the arguments for the other side would be. Perhaps that her spending was purely for herself, while the Black Prince was for the glory of his country?

[Mary Ellen]

Interesting! IIRC, at some point (before this chapter, I hope!) Tuchman noted that, at this point in history, neither rulers nor the common folk had a notion of "nation" as we see it, and that kings and princes were motivated mainly by the hope of individual and dynastic gains.

[Elizabeth S]

That does sound familiar. It seems that as we read we are moving towards a national feeling as we go through the 14th century. I would think that a national feel would develop a little faster in England because the geography (i.e. being an island) would help foster it.

So while the argument (i.e. the argument that the Black Prince was motivated by national pride) may hold a little water, it doesn't hold a lot. Interesting to think it through.

[Mary Ellen]

At the same time, I think many people in England did "glory in" the successes of the Black Prince. IIRC, eben the common people had affection for him. Not too sure about Isabella!

[Elizabeth S]

The Black Prince's PR was a little better, wasn't it. Isabella should have lived in our day when people lavish love on celebrities who spend a lot of money on themselves.

[Mary Ellen]

I've been meaning to share this quote (in the spirit of Elizabeth!) from Chapter 15, but never have the book around when I'm at the computer. It is at the end of a paragraph detailing the serving arrangements for one of the numerous banquets honoring the visiting Emperor:

On a previous visit by the Emperor to the Count of Savoy in 1365, mounted nobles had served platters of food poised on the ends of lances especially fitted with brackets for the purpose. Whatever its moral limitations, chivalry required a strong wrist." (p. 328)

Tuchman's bon mots are seldom just clever; they also bring certain easily-overlooked aspects of medieval life sharply into focus!

[Elizabeth S]

I missed that one, Mary Ellen. Good catch. I love it!

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Excellent Mary Ellen.