8. A DISTANT MIRROR... August 8th ~ August 14th ~~ Part One - Chapters TWELVE and THIRTEEN (246 - 283) - No Spoilers Please

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Hello Everyone,

For the week of August 8th - August 14th, we are reading approximately the next 33 pages of A Distant Mirror: The Calamitous 14th Century by Barbara W. Tuchman.

The eighth week's reading assignment is:

Week Eight - August 8th - August 14th -> PART ONE - Chapters TWELVE and THIRTEEN p. 246 - 283
TWELVE - Double Allegiance and THIRTEEN - Coucy's War

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book was kicked off on June 20th. We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle.

There is time still remaining to obtain the book and get started.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Welcome,

~Bentley


TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL



by Barbara W. Tuchman

[Vincent]

Well these chapters moved forward and somewhat confused my feeling of this century.

So we have/had form previous chapters an image of normal folk life in this century - now we see that when these various battles took place that the people suffered regularly and severely. But also due to Coucy's dual loyalty and sort of leaving the active scene for a couple of years we are told that his lands were not molested. So did the average serf, peasant live a hard work grim life or did they have that plus many disruptions by battles and companies and being conscripted? And I am always surprised as to how much effort can be used for war and battle while by and large people still live.
And we continue to have luxuries for the royalty.

Then we have various titled folks challenging using lawyers. So do the lawyers interpret the treaties and agreements or are there/ is there a law code of some type? Or is it what the Lord of a given area rules? Who makes lawyers lawyers? (Abe Lincoln sort of apprenticed and morphed into being a lawyer - but we had a constitution and laws both Federal, state and local)?
And I assume that Coucy, and his contemporaries, are on the road a lot, I mean Coucy to Lucerne is not a long drive or short flight in the 14th century.
I find it so interesting that these fellows wanted so much to have so much and that they kept going into mortal combat. (I guess those who lived long enough for us to read about were real tough guys.)

Also I note that we have now seen two major changes to warfare in this century - the longbow and the cannons. And I am also thinking about the logistics for the use of the 40 cannon (mentioned on page 271) in a siege and the supply of gunpowder and balls - iron or leather though they said they also used stones. Not to mention the manufacture of the cannon but that would be easier that the supply I think. Of course two major changes, more too maybe, is not necessity so unique – in the 20th century we added tanks and aircraft and missiles plus plus plus.

I can’t so much really grasp all the details of the intrigues and alliances of the Popes and the Kings and the Nobles – I continue to think that Tuchman chose well with Coucy. A guy connected to the two kings with his own heritage too.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

It is interesting that you thought that Tuchman chose well with Coucy; at first I was wondering at that choice and whether it would hold up well.

[Vincent]

Bentley wrote: "It is interesting that you thought that Tuchman chose well with Coucy; at first I was wondering at that choice and whether it would hold up well."

Well I agree - let's see if it holds up.

and what alternative fulcrum might have been used - or just a continuous presentation of developments.,...........

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Yes, of course...time will tell.

[Elizabeth S]

Vince wrote: "...And I am always surprised as to how much effort can be used for war and battle while by and large people still live. ..."

Amazing, isn't it. I like how Tuchman tries to not let us forget that point. "Ordinary life has the same persistence as the growth of weeds" (page 248). Even while telling us about the extreme cases, she tries to remind us that there were people who didn't have their villages razed every week or two.

Also I note that we have now seen two major changes to warfare in this century - the longbow and the cannons.

Yes, it is interesting, isn't it. As much as I dislike war, I am also fascinated by the technology of war. Another thing Tuchman mentions in several places is the lack of supply lines. The war leaders keep invading and assuming they will live off the land, and it seldom worked very well.

I continue to think that Tuchman chose well with Coucy. A guy connected to the two kings with his own heritage too.

During the first 5-6 chapters, when Coucy hardly appeared, I wondered why Tuchman even felt a need to pick someone. It read like a regular history book. But now that we see Coucy regularly, I'm beginning to see some of the advantages. It is nice to have someone who has loyalties on both sides of a long, historic war. It is nice to have someone that we keep referring back to. Kinda a golden thread running through this part of the century. I am curious about how that will go as we move forward in the book.

[Elizabeth S]

Here are some of my other thoughts as I read:

There are a lot of little phrases and comments in the book that make me laugh. I like Tuchman's take on Pope Urban's death, "Within two months he did... of an unspecified illness. Perhaps its name was despair" (page 251).

And here is a dig at us modern people: "People of the Middle Ages were less deterred by physical hazards than their more comfortable descendants" (page 252). Ouch.

Next time I hear someone complaining about their in-laws, I'll try to remember to tell them about Blanche who had "the unhappy family situation which her husband's lands were being ravaged by her brother" (page 256). And you thought your in-laws were annoying.

I thought this was an interesting observation, "War is too unpleasant and costly a business to be sustained successfully without a cause" (page 258). Perhaps that explains the "need" for a propaganda department.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

I loved that sentence too Elizabeth S. She does have a sarcastic sense of humor.

Maybe folks should just simply not use war as the propaganda tool as was our last war with Iraq. Plenty of propaganda to go around. And to think as you evidenced in reading your last historical fiction book; so many young men are ruined forever from these wars. And many never come back. I guess you have to ask yourself what is the right kind of cause?

[Elizabeth S]

Good question, Bentley. And what the "right" kind of cause is can vary from person to person. No wonder it is such a difficult subject for everyone to agree on.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

It is for sure; I think there have to be better ways than war.