ARCHIVE - 2. HERODOTUS - THE HISTORIES~BOOK I/SECTIONS 111-216 (09/22/08 - 09/28/08) ~ No spoilers, please

[[deleted user]]

When I first started reading it I expected a one-sided description of the Persians vs. the Greeks. I think part of why he doesn't do this is because he's imitating Homer who is very generous to the Trojans, although they are the "enemy". He's following a tradition of impartiality. But isn't part of it that the Persians were a "civilized" society in spite of being Barbarian? In spite of being an enemy?

[[deleted user]]

Message 89

Yes, I thought he was saying they were less sophisticated. I took it to mean that he thought the Persians were naive. Sort of odd and primitive in that they could not conceive of what was obviously true.

[[deleted user]]

message 92

Yes, I'm aware of those debates and I find them annoying. They seem to be denying the obvious in an attempt to make the practice socially acceptable, which it is not! It reminds me of years ago when Susan Brownmiller wrote a book about how rape is NOT a sexual but an aggressive act. Well, it's obviously both. I have not read that book or the one that explains the details of pederasty but it seems to me that using a child, for whatever reason, was and is wrong. But I'm sure some would say I'm "ethnocentric" and I can live with that. I think the Greeks really thought it was a good idea. I think part of what they liked about it was that it created bonds that were powerful during wartime. Men would do anything for their fellow soldiers as they "loved" them so. Third rail topic indeed! LOL!

[[deleted user]]

I think when they using young boys it becomes the norm.

BTW, I've been listening to the Odyssey of the West and there's a section on Herodotus. I'm probably the last to realize this but he pointed out the forest when I was seeing nothing but trees. I'd better continue on a spoiler thread.

[BCKnowlton]

Having been away from the conversation for a while, a good opportunity to get back into it is one in which I can say that I am going to avoid that third rail...

In connection, going back several messages, with the fate of Astyages, here is a critical bit, as I call them when I give them to my students, from Selincourt's World of Herodotus:

“Modern historians seek for impersonal causes, economic, social, or whatever they may be, to account for the growth and decay of peoples and civilizations; ancient historians almost without exception found the driving force in individuals. Herodotus was no exception: in his narrative, Media fell not only because Cyrus was destined to conquer it, but also because Astyages was a bloody tyrant and deserved to fall; moreover, he must have been mad when he gave the command of his armies to Harpagus, the man who of all others had reason to hate him and was most likely to betray him. In one way at any rate we can be grateful to Herodotus for tracing historical events almost exclusively to the actions of individuals, because it provided matter for all his finest stories” (209-210).

And Croesus continues to interest me too. I am contemplating a paper on "The Further Adventures of the Former King Croesus," or some such thing. In a way, the story of Croesus can have all of its intended efects if it ends with him on the pyre. In some versions of the story he dies there, and in others he is saved by Apollo but not so that he can advise Cyrus. Here is a critical bit from J. B. Bury:

“Such is the tale as we read it in the story of Herodotus, who may have heard it in Athens. But we can almost see the story in the making. For, before the episode of Solon was woven in, the fate of Croesus had been wrought into a legend; this legend is related in a poem by Bacchylides. When the day of doom surprised the King, ‘he could not abide to endure the bitterness of bondage, but he raised a pyre before the palace court, and gat him up thereon with his wife and his weeping daughters. He bad the slippered thrall kindle the timber building; the maidens screamed, and stretched their arms to their mother. But as the might of the fire was springing through the wood, Zeus set a sable cloud above it and quenched the yellow flame. Then Apollo bore the old man with his daughters to the land of the Hyperboreans, to be his abiding place, for his piety’s sake, because his gifts to Pytho were greater than all men’s gifts.’ The moral of the tale clearly was, Bring gifts to Delphi; and we can hardly doubt that it originated under Delphic influence. But in the city of Solon it was transformed by a touch of genius into one of the great stories of the world.”

Cyrus will advise Cyrus and Cambyses, and I don't want to spoil anything; but the advice he gives Cyrus near the end of Book 1 is significant in a number of ways. Cyrus is gearing up to attack the Massagetae. As the Selincourt translation has it, "There were many things which roused his ambition and gave him courage to undertake this new war, the two most important being his belief in his superhuman origin and the success of all his previous campaigns" (1.204). Anyone who knows how Herodotus operates must read that as paving the way for the fall of Cyrus. To attack the Massagetae, Cyrus and his Persians have to cross a river; and as the updated edition of the Selincourt translation points out, the transgression of natural boundaries typically signifies as hubris, and anticipates its inevitable consequence. The queen of the Massagetae wisely advises Cyrus not to attack, but she adds that she doesn't think he'll take the advice, and he doesn't; because in Herodotus wise advice is usually not taken. But then Croesus weighs in, and his wise advice responds directly to what has made Cyrus unwisely decide to make war on the Massagetae. Croesus considers that it is the god's will that he advise Cyrus, and so he points out to him that he and his men are not in fact superhuman but mere mortals; and that though he has had success in all his previous campaigns, "human life is like a revolving wheel and never allows the same people to continue long in prosperity" (1.207). He then gives some tactical advice that has to do with the theme of poverty and opulence (another paper I am contemplating)and finally advises him to cross the river to attack rather than wait for the Massagetae to cross. This is good tactical advice, and Cyrus takes it; but it does involve crossing the river, and of course in the ensuing battle Cyrus and his army are destroyed. I suppose, though, that it is the god's will that Croesus advise Cyrus, because it seems to be the god's will that Cyrus should die...

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

The World of Herodotus

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

BC:
a) Thank you for mentioning Selincourt's World of Herodotus which I added to the thread's listing of books mentioned. When you post, at the bottom right is a new feature, where you can add the book (cover, link, or both to your note). At the same time, goodreads adds the book title and links to the white space to the right of our posts in the topic where it is mentioned. Great feature and helpful.

b) The quote is very interesting; I wonder what is more correct (modern historians or ancient historians); modern historians try not to blame the individual and make it not about him or her; ancient historians seem to go directly to the source and tell it like it is or how it appeared to be to the people themselves. If we look at the war we are in; what would a modern historian say versus an ancient one is the root cause or the driving force? (fascinating quote BC).

c) We are delighted and grateful that you are back into the conversation; you add a great deal to it.

d) That paper would be an interesting one to pursue; so many different accounts; I was not aware that in some accounts he dies on the pyre (that would change everything) and we would not be questionning his motives when he is advising Cyrus (some of us think to even a score).

e) The poem of Bacchylides (legend) is another twist in the story which accounts for his being in his predicament because of a decision he personally made and I was shocked how in this version you cited he decided not only to destroy himself but his poor wife and daughters. What a difference.

f) You raise some interesting hypotheses about Croesus' motivations; you believe that it was the god's will and that Croesus gave sound advice but it was this same advice which eroded Cyrus's confidence and ability to be successful. If he did not have superhuman powers; there was a possibility he would fail and he could die. Something obviously he had not contemplated before and/or folks were too afraid to bring to his attention. I doubt I would have been as brave as Croesus if I had been placed on the pyre once before. So of course, hubris is a mortal sin according to Herodotus and his laws of history and usually the leaders he tells us about do not take wise advise (another nail in Cyrus' coffin).

g) Your feeling is that in Herodotus's version the gods and what they want to happen override then fate or free will; that a lot is pre-determined by what is going to happen in any case if you upset the natural order and balance that is doled out by the gods.

Thanks for this post; it gave me even more to think about.

Bentley

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Folks, I am bumping this thread; because I have added all 14 weeks of threads for the entire Herodotus discussion. Only 5 threads of the weekly topics show; you have to select view all on the topic header (Spotlighted Topics) to see all 14 weeks and threads. At any time by selecting view all; you can see all of the threads in any topic and post to any of them that have been opened already.

Bentley

[Prunesquallor]

RE Oldesq, # 48: "Hey, did you have as much trouble with the concept of "driving out foreign gods" by the Caunians as I did? (1.172) So, the Caunians decided to reject certain foreign cults . . . and to worship only their own ancestral gods. So pretty much everyone goes to the territorial boundary and "drives out" the foreign gods by stabbing the air with spears. This is a very confusing concept to me. If you reject the foreign deities- what are you driving out or stabbing? If you 'believe' in the existence of things that you are driving out- how can you reject them?"

There are some spirits that one might find objectionable, some powerful enough to be called gods, but rejecting/ ejecting them may at some time be considered the proper course of action.

I wonder if the concept here is akin to a medieval exorcism, or even "wrestling with a devil?" Just because one "believes" in a given spirit, one does not have to accept its presence or worship it.

I believe there is a long tradition of people turning against the gods they have, whenever prayers and sacrifices seem to produce no positive results, and at such times new gods may be established to do what the older ones apparently could not do? Especially in polytheistic cultures, you would have alternative "options" for your worship, and be afforded the luxury of picking and choosing among a variety of divinities until you found a suitable match.