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Cthaeh (SPOILERS If you don't recognize the name)
message 51:
by
Brandt
(new)
May 30, 2012 11:39AM
I dont think the ctaeh is on the side of the Chandrian, i think it mentions it might have a grudge against cinder, so its not sure that from Kvothe (our) perspective the future it has chosen will be a bad one..
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Okay.. i still dont like the idea, but i cant help stop thinking about it.. The shapers powers is knowing too.
What if the ctaeh is some imprisoned shaper back from those ancient times.. Is there anyone we have heard about that fits ?
Mod
2.) I seriously doubt that the Cthaeh is in the box. First off, that would be really weird and not fit in the story so far at all. Secondly, I'm not sure how that would have anything to do with Scrael. Lastly, I think that probably would have came up when Bast had his minor freak out.
3.) I'm pretty sure the Cthaeh could come into the "real" world if it could get away with it, but its sort of trapped at that tree by the Sithe. Who apperantly have some magic power to see it or something. (We havent recieved enough information to know)
I agree...the Cthaeh has already played it's card. It pretty much just manipulates the truth and what it sees to control people of influence whenever it gets the chance.
Lastly, some people have put forth that the Cthaeh is Iax, but thats pretty clearly incorrect since Iax spoke to the Cthaeh.
I have thought maybe the Cthaeh is Teccam.
I was thinking that the Cthaeh is trapped in the Fae world at the tree and in the human world by the box. There is also the matter of the locked door on the Lackless estate.
Mod
The Cthaeh is in both worlds? Or their are two Cthaeh and the one in the Four Corners is trapped in the box?
Two Cthaeh...*shiver* that would be scary!
I assume whatever is in the box must somehow coincide with Lady Lackless' Husband's Rocks.
Yep. Whatever that means.
And I definitely haven't forgotten about the Lackless door, mystery numbero uno for me, wish we had more info on it.
I was thinking that the Cthaeh is in both worlds, like the moon.
Mod
See, this is exactly what fouled me up on thinking Denna could be the moon. How is the moon in the sky at the same time that Denna is with Kvothe?
If indeed she is the moon. How can there be two of the same person/thing?
I like the theory that Denna is the moon, but how would this work with the above dilemma. Same for the Cthaeh.
Oh and apperantly, I was reading on KKC Wiki, the Cthaeh is somehow bound to the tree and cant leave it. Thats why the Sithe just gaurd the tree and kill anyone who gets to close.
Which leads to another question of where were these guys when Kvothe, Iax, and Lanre spoke to the Cthaeh?
The moon has a cycle. Maybe Denna stays while there is a moon? Not sure about this, though. And if the doors to the Fae world are "in between" maybe that explains the Cthaeh as well?
Scans wrote: ",,, Bast then mentions the Rhinna, the flower that heals any wound, and Kvothe looks at his hands. Perhaps he thinks that this can be a possible solution to his problem..? "props for noticing this. We don't see Kote play any music do we? Does Bast mention that he catches him humming on occasion, but that this is rare? This is weird given how much of the story focuses around how important music is to Kvothe. Think of the time he sings to Vashet.
But is the notion that Kvothe is physically injured and unable to play, or emotionally injured somehow? I personally suspect there's a danger to singing, as if he'd be calling the true name of something when he does it, and then that something will know where he is.
Mod
His Rings.
And maybe now, even those that people cannot see are gone.
Mod
Cthaeh is very similar to a listener, he could build a lot of information being able to speak to all types of things like rocks and wind and trees. But on the same note, Jax's story is the warped version so Cthaeh could have just been described as an old guy in a cave since describing him as a creepy voiced tree seems weird for folk lore. (Or maybe the Cthaeh was once a man, similar to Haliax, who eventually became fed up with everyone) I mean, ultimately, the old man, gave Jax the information required to steal the moon. Which turned out to be a sort of negative thing. Which pretty much would coincide with everthing the Cthaeh does.
But maybe not. Like I said, we're making the assumption that Jax spoke with Teccam when it doesnt specifically say that. There were just a lot of similar qualities between those characters. Thats the problem with a lot of the theories I read and make myself, they are so easy to break down with small technicalities and have to many "ifs"
There are a lot of similarities (in my opinion) between Kvothe and Jax from the story. But they are obviously not the same character. :(
Amber wrote: "I personally thought he was always looking at his hands because he's missing something on them....His Rings.
And maybe now, even those that people cannot see are gone."
I didn't think about the rings but that is a good point. Perhaps when he looks at his hands he thinks of all the things he used to have: music, magic, sword, rings. When he changed his name to Kote the magic may have "wounded" him. Remember how concerned Elodin was when Kvothe mentioned his friend (Denna) changing her name? I think that the Rhinna from the Cthaeh may be the only way to heal his wound.
Mod
Thats sort of what I was thinking. You know all the rings represented something about Kvothe that now seems lost. So it's probably a harsh reminder and definitely doesnt help out Bast much in his quest to revive Kvothe. GOD I CANNOT WAIT FOR BOOK 3...UGH! I dont know how much Rhinna flower will play into the books, but its no long shot to think they would.
On an off note, couldnt Haliax just heal himself with a rhinna flower? I mean, the Sithe couldnt kill him until after and that sort of seems like his goal so.....
If that isnt coverd in book three I'm writing Pat a letter!
and
@Shaliza -
A lot of people, including myself, have associated the character with Teccam. But you never know, Pat could go a completely opposite direction since it doesnt specifically say.
All I can say for sure is IF the story of Jax is the folk version of the story of Iax than either the Tinker or the Old Man in the Cave will have to represent the Cthaeh. I dont think the Cthaeh is a well known fae in Four Corners. Chronicler didnt seem to recognize the significance.
@ AmberAny idea what chapter it talks about Kvothe's rings? Is it NOTW or WMF? I'd be interested in rereading that section.
I guess Haliax could heal himself with a Rhinna flower but maybe the Cthaeh didn't or will not give him one..?
Has it been concluded that Lanre = Haliax? If so maybe Lanre was healed by the Rhinna?
Mod
It might be mentioned in WMF but I havent seen it yet in my reread (then again I'm only page 101)
I'd say that it's pretty conclusive that Lanre became Haliax. It's all in Skarpi's story. Once Lanre had gained so much power and couldnt bring back Lyra, he change into Haliax and planned to "salt the earth" whatever that means, until the world ended, thus ending him. Apperantly he couldnt die after Lyra brought him back from the dead.
Lastly - why couldnt he have stolen a rhinna flower? If he didnt want to heal himself, why couldnt he heal Lyra with one?
I'd like to know why Lyra died in the first place...dont think thats ever made clear....
DAMN YOU PATRICK ROTHFUSS! I need to think of more productive things than this!
Mod
Lanre attempts to save Lyra by going to the Fae and securing a rhinna flower (no easy task) of course he probably got some screwed up info about the future, when he gets back he finds Lyra has already died, then makes it his mission to master naming so he can call her back from the underworld -
That'd be a good story actually. It'd be sweet of PR wrote that four corners story after he finished Kvothe - I love a tragedy!
Hii guys, I haven't really been on in a while, so I just skimmed all of the posts since I last logged on.But I have some speculation to offer (I don't know if it can be called insight, it's up to you guys to decide that), but it's about a number of different topics that relate to the Cthaeh.
1) I think the Cthaeh is trapped in the tree because it can't be killed, we know Haliax is unable to die because of his immense power, and that Iax had to be trapped beyond the Doors of Stone because he couldn't be permanently defeated. And we are aware of the Cthaeh's power.
2) It is also known that the Cthaeh is older than the faen realm, I think it might be as old as Aleph.
3) We know the Sithe (The Cthaeh's guardians) are a faction of Fae, and Bast says specifically they are not good, but their intentions are the closest to being good out of all the fae. Maybe they let certain people in for certain reasons. All we know is that they are self serving.
also @Amber we don't know if Lanre was too late, he says "wife is dead. Deceit and treachery brought me to it, but her death is on my hands.” He may have straight up killed her due to this deceit and treachery.
this might sound really really lame... but i always pictured the ctaeh looking something like a flying-squirrel. just an innocent looking creature with vile intentions. it definitely isn't the tree. the snake theory could work but i remember kvothe talking about seeing a flash of something before butterfly wings fell and that the voice came from a different place afterwards. snakes aren't fast when they're hanging out on trees.as for its importance... i don't think it'll really come back into it until the 4th book when kvothe leaves the inn and tries to fix everything.
Mod
Their isnt going to be a fourth book about Kvothe. Pat has made this pretty clear in all his interviews where the question is asked. When KKC is done he said he intends to keep going in the four corners but it wont be centered on Kvothe and it will be a new story. The third book will be the final all say finish up the story book.
I think next he intends to work on a campaign setting for RPG'ers if he can get the interest. (which I think is their)
However, I agree it definitely isnt the tree. Doesnt it say something like he's no more a tree than Kvothe is a chair? Its just sitting on the tree. I always pictured it more impish than flying squirrel, but who knows. It's invisible LOL.
I also disagree that snakes arent fast when hanging out in trees. I once put my pet snake in my potted tree while doing the dishes and when I went to grab him to put it away - it was the first and only time it struck me and it was extremely fast and startling. Just a personal experience on that subject - I'm pretty sure that snakes speed is only affected by weather conditions. Its the only thing I've noticed make my own snake slower.
@JimmyI agree with Amber and what she states about the story with book 4. I have seen other people mention that Pat intends to write more on kvothe after book 3, but again I ask, where is your proof. I have read Pats interviews clearly state, Kvothe is done after book 3.
Mod
I hope it doesnt take another 14 years to make his next series though. LOL.
Although I'm sure it will be easier with editors to help.
Hmm so far each book have lasted only one day in "real time" (despite being almost a 1000 pages each), i dont think its possible to wrap up kvothes story, and all the troubles in "real time" in just one book.. there are still waaaay too much unresolved business.. If there is just one book left, i doubt it will resolve the problems in "real time"..
Mab wrote:i dont think its possible to wrap up kvothes story, and all the troubles in "real time" in jus..."Unless the book will be at least 1,000 pages, maybe even over 1,500...
I'll be dissapointed by anything less than 1000 pages ;)
My feelings exactly :) Plus, I just can't see how everything can be wrapped up in less.
Mod
I think I'll take the authors word for it. Pat seems pretty adamant about the fact it will be a trilogy.
Wouldnt surprise me if it were another brick of a novel, I think he intends it to be longer than WMF.
You should really read some of his interviews on the subject -
For all we know he kills Kvothe in the end - seems pretty easy to wrap up from their.
Amber wrote: For all we know he kills Kvothe in the end - seems pretty easy to wrap up from their.If Pat kills Kvothe, he better have a bomb shelter ready to hide from the lynch mob...
Mod
Not if its done well.
Ever watched the Skeleton Key? Hero lost and I personally loved it.
If it's original - people will like it.
I dont really think he'll kill him off, but I dont neccesarily think it would be the worst. I was just making a point that it could be a pretty simple wrap up if PR really wanted it to be.
The obvious ending would be for kvothe to return to Felurian, right ? He did promise to return to her..
Mod
I've also personally hoped that Felurian kills Denna...that would be awesome.
Alas - probably wishful thinking since not much evidence to go with it.
Just the thought of Felurian killing Denna makes me giggle a bit, but yes, probably wishful thinking ;)
I've actually long suspected there to be more than 3 books. Eventually.The is the KingKiller Chronicles. In a literal sense, it's Kvothe relating the story of how he became a kingkiller.
It's not the Chandrian War Chronicles or whatever. Which would involve Kvothe hunting down and killing Chandrian.
It all seems like more than could fit in a single book.
Mod
http://fantasy-faction.com/2011/patri...
There is just a couple of links to reiterate...Kvothe's story will be over when Day Three ends.
Sorry guys.
but amber, while i did agree with you that kvothe's story will only be 3 books. pat is quoted,"stories need an ending" i think somewhere else in the forums someone quoted pat saying,"kvothe's story is finished in book 3" (i have no proof of that quote). however, if you look at this situation from the plot of the book, kvothe is telling a story that is expected to end in day 3. thus allowing for present day events (at the waystone inn) to proceed with a whole new trilogy maybe? wishful thinking i know, but Pat is what i like to call a "wordsmith", he is very particular about the words he uses. i think it's obvious we all want more than 3 books, but stories do need an ending...
http://www.tor.com/blogs/2012/05/roth...Interviewer: Given that they seem to be giving you A Lot Of Pages per book, how worried should we be about book-creep, in the sense where George R.R. Martin wound up writing an entire extra book between the books he’d already planned? That is, do you think this is going to fit into three, or is there a possibility of overspill?
PR: Three books.
Mod
However - he seems pretty clear this will be a trilogy.
Wouldnt surprise me if Kvothe Kingkiller were mentioned in his further writings or brought up or things Kvothe did effected another character he is writing, since Kvothe is obviously a huge part of the world he's created. However, I seriously doubt he will carry on with another story of Kvothe or Kote.
- it appears you overall agree with what I'm trying to say -
It's kinda hard to not agree when Pat keeps saying over and over how KKC is a trilogy. I keep imagining books that are KKC universe, but in the future, and everytime they talk about the legend of Kvothe, we'd just smile a bit and shake our heads. Because we know.
Mod
Of course the further stories in the Four Corners and even beyond to Ademre and Fae will be affected by Kvothe - but I dont think future stories will make him the feature character.
I'd love if he did a book on Bast.
Or wrote the "true" story of Lanre.
I could also totally see Pat twisting the trilogy where Chronicler is the one that goes into the next series and continues to write from his perspective. (You could argue Chronicler is just as central a character as Kvothe, at least in my opinion)
You could argue that, but i just don't like Chronicler all that much. I think the story of Lanre would make an awesome book, but I have this feeling that we're gonna learn the story in DoS. And omg a book on Bast? I'd love that.
Mod
But then again - how many people can really read in this world? I dont think that has been addressed has it? I know in some worlds like GRRM's more low class characters cannot read or at least not well.
I don't recall Pat ever mentioning the literacy of the people, but I'm assuming that in the big cities most of them can probably read. Or maybe half.
Mod
I mean - its not all that important, but a lot of interviews are pretty redundant anyway. Be nice to know just how many people would actually have the ability to read Kvothe's story when its finished.
isn´t this bookshop keeper in Tarbean very suprised when Kvothe is able to read? Kvothe looking like a street kid that is, so maybe thats not very informative.But if the Cthaeh is a snake, or any other animal, in a three and not the three itself then is should be able too move around in the would. Which would be disastrous. And maybe not likely, as those Sithe people is said to be guaring from anyone entering the place where the three is and not from the Cthaeh leaving it´s place.
There is a popular theory on the asoiaf site that Selitos is the Cthaeh The crux can be found in post 391 onwards on http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/...
1) The Loeclos box wood smells similar to the Cthaeh's tree, and hence could share the same wood.
2) Kvothe thinks the object inside the Loeclos box is like glass or stone. And smaller than a salt box.
3) The only stone in the book that is described as also being like glass is montain glass, which is like mirror-glass or obsidian.
4) In Skarpi's tale, Selitos poked out his own eye with a piece of stone called mountain glass, which would certainly have Selitos' blood on it.
5) Trapping the obsidian stone and Selitos blood in the Loeclos box, together with naiming/shaping magic could bind Selitos to the tree.
6) I don't have the quotes handy, but Selitos had powers which were equalled only by Lyra, Iax and Aleph. And at that time his sight was peerless. But once he poked his eye out, his sight became even more powerful. Which makes me think of a parallel in a way to the Cthaeh's ability to see all paths into the future.
7) Selitos would have been trapped in the Cthaeh tree sometime after the creation of "Tehlu and the Angels".
8) The Cthaeh says Cinder "did me a wrong turn once." Which could imply Cinder did Selitos a wrong turn once when he betrayed Myr Tariniel and one/6 of the other cities.
There are known problems with this theory but they can be explained though I'm not across the details of the explanations.
Problems like:
A) Cthaeh spoke to Iax and Lanre, which was supposed to have happened over 5,000 years ago (Haliax hasn't slept for 5,000 years). Stated by Bast.
B) Kvothe dates the Lackless box as about 3,000 years old, which is agreed to by Meluan (with a nod of her head).
C) If Selitos is the Cthaeh, how to reconcile 2,000 years when Selitos/Cthaeh isn't trapped in the tree?
EDIT: Taken out reference to the Sithe.
Jezdynamite wrote: "There is a popular theory on the asoiaf site that Selitos is the Cthaeh, and whether the Sithe actually work for the Cthaeh or against it. It is based around the following (and I'm paraphrasing......"How can there be people talking to the Cthaeh that will not futher his goals? (whatever those may be), knowing everything, wouldn´t he just keep quiet if a person likte that come close to him? That seems to make the Sithes task quite unimportant.
Tove wrote: "Jezdynamite wrote: "There is a popular theory on the asoiaf site that Selitos is the Cthaeh, and whether the Sithe actually work for the Cthaeh or against it. It is based around the following (and..."Yeah, I don't know how that works so well. I've take out the part out (from my post quote above) that I don't feel can be properly backed-up.
Mod
From what I gather he/she is bound to the tree for whatever reason.
And @ Jez - though I enjoyed reading the theory you posted (and thats saying a lot since I hate double character theories) it doesnt seem reconcilable. How would Selitos be the ctheah if Iax and Lanre both spoke to it before he cut his eye out? I dont see getting past that boulder in the road. The timeline does not match.
I'll give you some argument to your theory beside that as well.
1.) total speculation. So you cant really include that as fact in a theory.
2.) Also speculation. I'm more prone to believe that whats inside the box is some kind of stone vs anything else, simply due the lackless poem. (In a box no lids or locks, Lackless keeps her husbands rocks) otherwise that part of the poem literally makes no sense.
3.) I consider this a legitamate point. But we also have to remember there is a whole 3rd book to add in. Not too mention - in the real world, which holds a lot of similarities to Kvothe's world, offers lots of different stones like this. I personally have been to Glass beach and seen about a million glass rocks that were nothing like obsidian.
4.) I would also assume Selito's blood was on something that he stabbed his eye out with - sort of no point in arguing that.
5.) I really think this is a silly point. Do you seriously think that Selitos would be that freakin'
stupid? That would be outrageously moronic. So 10 minutes after he was just bound by his own name by someone he considered close friend, hero and ally, he lets someone steal his bloody rock, or the only other possibility he throws it on the ground?! Thats completely ridiculous in my opinion. Especially since he just said that he would never be fooled again by someone like Lanre - who is basically the most powerful badass badguy in the 4C's. Thats going to take a lot of reasoning to back up.
6.)I agree that Selitos says that only those listed had power in comparison to his, and that he stabbed his eye out to better see that which was in front of him - but he doesnt say he'll be able to see the future, or be some sort of omnipotent, invisible, tree hugger. In fact I'm pretty sure Selitos goes on to become the leader of the Amyr - which I guess might be invisible, since thats not totally covered, but why would he waste time in the fae or even go there in the first place? And why would he wish destruction on the whole world, when thats pretty much what led to him stabbing his eye out?
7.) this point actually contributes to the deconstruction of this theory. So I dont think anymore needs to be said.
8.) Cinder never did Selitos a wrong turn - Lanre did. Thats just simple reading comprehension. If anything, since I feel this Selitos theory is based of pretty much pure speculation - I personally have though that Cinder was Fae for a long time now. He has the same sort of eyes as the fae are described as having. Which to me would suggest that while in Fae, Cinder probably did something to the Ctheah. Which would be a pretty good explanation of why he needs to chill with Haliax, the only guy that cannot be killed.
But thats just as speculative as this entire theory.
It's a nice idea - but I'm really not seeing it without a lot of back up.
Hi AmberThanks for taking the time to write back. Its nice to debate these things.
Most of this thread is about speculation. To dismiss the theory as not having weight due to it being speculation sort of disregards anyones theories on this thread. I thought that was the idea of a speculation thread.
A few short points as I have to go to work:
A) Selitos definitely spoke to lanre and iax before becoming the cthaeh. He didn't need to be the cthaeh at that point for the cthaehs actions to be linked to him in the future.
B) There is no need for Lanre to have stolen the obsidian stone straight after Selitos curses and banishes him. It could have been anytime after.
C) We aren't given a timeframe between the events of "Selitos and Haliax" and of "the creation of the Amyr and Tehlu and the Angels". Irrespective, Selitos could be trapped in the tree after these events. The Chandrian could trap him years later, the Lackless family in conjunction with the other Amyr could trap him if they didn't agree with his methods. For all we know the Lackless family could be Lanre or Lyra's descendents. Lots of possibilities, but yes, not many facts.
D) Bast is the one who mentions many bad things like the creation of the scandyne, the nameless, etc can be attributed to the cthaeh. And he says those actions can be "traced back" to the cthaeh, which seems to imply that it needed detective work to discover. Which to me implies the creation/birth/origin of the cthaeh is not well known or lost in history. This is the weakest argument in this theory, to me.
E) I don't see Selitos as being necessarily a good guy. Being the head of the Amyr, he probably has really good intentions but his methods to achieve "the greater good" could also be not good; "for the greater good". Which could lead a bunch of different factions to want to get rid of him or trap him in a tree.
F) I think Cinder did Selitos "at least" one bad turn by betraying one of the 6 cities and helping to betray myr tariniel, iirc. Since one of the initial betrayers redeemed him/herself, seems to me that the betrayers/chandrian had a choice. Just like Selitos had a choice and chose to defy Haliax/Lanre
G) I don't have the text handy, but iirc; the way its described how selitos gains additional sight when he pokes out his own eye, it sounds like he gets supernatural sight. I'll try to find it later on this evening (Australian time).
Thanks for your thoughts. If this was my own theory, I'd have more legs to stand on and be doing a better job if it. I'll post a link to the original theory tonight too.
Mod
- so...back to that I guess :)
A) I'm a bit confused about what you said here. From what I read I got the impression Lanre spoke to the Ctheah before he went and destroyed the seven cities and tricked Selitos. Bast specifically says he spoke to the Ctheah and doesnt say anything about Selitos. That seems a stretch that they started calling Selitos, Ctheah after Lanre became Haliax. But I guess its possible. Seems like a small possiblity though.
2.) I agree with that, but what I meant, is how would they have stolen it from a guy who can see so clearly? That would have been rough. Unless Selitos actually put the rock in there himself - that seems more likely in my opinion than it being stolen from him. Especially if he did become the all knowing Cthaeh...
3.) We are given some timeline. The amyr are created by Aleph AFTER Selitos and Haliax have their little tif. Selitos chooses to become an Amyr instead of a Ruach to avenge his fallen city and fight Haliax. According to Skarpi at least. I believe the Ruach and Tehlu are made into themselves about that moment also - but definitly need to review that. On another note, I've speculated myself that the Lady Lackless of the poems is actually Lyra (but there isnt much supporting evidence to go with it, since so little Lyra is in the actual story)
4 or D...I just realized this was going in letters - shit.
D.) I agree this is a pretty weak argument. Traced back to the Ctheah could simply mean that the ctheah could have influenced someone into creating those things since it was sort of bound to tree and couldnt go anywhere. We dont have a definitive answer on who or how many people the Ctheah has spoken with and survived the ordeal. We know about three, that doesnt necessarily mean that was all of them, I mean, it appear Cinder had some dealing with it. Or even, it could mean, these things were created by one of those three people. Iax was a gifted Shaper, obviously, and was influenced in some way by the chtheah, where as he might not have taken that path without the little shove.
E.) I agree, I have thought for sometime now that maybe this whole Chandrian as bad guys could be switched around. I mean, Denna seems to think it is. That's plausible, but at the same time, why would they trap him in the fae and not the human realm?
F.) I'm going to have to look that part up. I thought the chandrian were all treasonist too. But when I wiki'd the info I couldnt find anything on it that suggested that. (Lame) However, when I was reading the one about Cinder, I hadnt realized, but in the picture from the vase that Nina finds at the wedding, Cinder is pictured with a tree...might be a connection there.
G.) I took that to mean he had some supernatural sight as well, but not exactly the kind that sees into the future. I thought it would sort of show him whats inside a person when he meets them - if that makes any sense. Sort of like how if he'd really been looking he'd have seen that Haliax was not longer really Lanre, his true name was different.
Okay - that was long! LOL. Have a good time at work we'll discuss more when you return ha ha ha!
http://www.tor.com/blogs/2012/01/roth...found this earlier today. pretty interesting, and WTF connection to Puppet, never looked at it that way.
:: sigh :: I might be doing a 4th listen before this year ends, or Hell, maybe i should start the new year with a re-listen, lol
